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#30399 - 03/07/04 10:07 PM Butterfly effect...
Malin_Wolf Offline
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Registered: 12/06/02
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Just some things that I find interesting.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/beffect.html
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#30400 - 03/07/04 10:40 PM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Malin_Wolf]
HLGwyn Offline


Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 128
Loc: Colorado
My inability to be a math geek causes me to think in symbolical pictures when confronted with such a presentation.
I liken it to the yin/yang within a circle, or the Baphomet within it's circle. IT being points of effect, causing affect.
Suffice to say, I do admire those who break down the mechanics of the basic theme, and apply it to possibly further *some* of the human race along its' manifest destiny.
Alas, it is beyond my poor feild of experience to give any-more than those who devote their lives to breaking it's code.
I will just have to continue being magical.

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#30401 - 03/08/04 02:28 PM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Malin_Wolf]
Captn_Thatch Offline
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I was reading about this the other day.

Have you compared it to Wave Theory?

This is just one website with information about it.

(Dr. Van Helsing's voice:) verrry interesting
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#30402 - 03/08/04 03:58 PM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Malin_Wolf]
Bill_M Offline
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>>Just some things that I find interesting.
>>http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/beffect.html

I remember doing all this stuff in one of the courses I took ("Math Modeling with ODEs") for my Bachelor's. Actually, my concentration was in mathematical modeling, so I had a number of courses like this.

I noticed that this page mentions the weather, a subject which seemed to come up now and then in class. One thing they don't mention is the calculation time required for these, which plays a significant role. You can keep on adding more and more details to an equation so that your predictions become more and more accurate, but the catch is that you need more computer time to factor things out. As one of my professors told us, there are some rather accurate mathematical models out there that can predict tomorrow's weather, but the problem is that it takes the fastest computer over 24 hours to figure it out!

>>"Lack of Foxes means that the Rabbit population can
>>increase,but increasing numbers of Rabbits means Foxes
>>have more food and are likely to survive and reproduce,
>>which in turn decreases the number of Rabbits."

Yep, "Rabbits and Foxes" is a classic example. Depending on how much of each you start out with and what other conditions you factor in, you could end up a state of equilibrium, i.e. either the populations become extinct or you get to a point where the birth and death rates level out to be the same. When you get into more complex models, seemingly small changes in the initial values can make tremendous differences later on.

>> I liken it to the yin/yang within a circle, or the
>> Baphomet within it's circle. IT being points of effect,
>> causing affect. [HLGwyn]

I don't quite see your analogy here. Could you explain?
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#30403 - 03/13/04 01:11 AM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: HLGwyn]
Malin_Wolf Offline
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Registered: 12/06/02
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Loc: A sleepy little hollow in Flor...
>> I liken it to the yin/yang within a circle, or the
>> Baphomet within it's circle. IT being points of effect,
>> causing affect. [HLGwyn]

BillM posted....
I don't quite see your analogy here. Could you explain?


Like Mr. BillM, I don't quite understand the analogy you were going for. I am curious what you meant.
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#30404 - 03/13/04 01:21 AM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Malin_Wolf Offline
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Thank you for the link.

I have not compared it to Wave Theory as of yet. But I do have a theory of my own based along the same lines...at least I believe it is my own, I haven't seen it anywhere else yet...that light, being made up of waves and particles, that the waves are "information" that acts upon the particles to give the light or energy it's specific properties.

If anyone comes across what I am explaining, please let me know so I can investigate it further.
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#30405 - 03/13/04 02:58 AM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Malin_Wolf]
Captn_Thatch Offline
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Loc: 11549'00"W 3714'00"N
I proposed a study of this on the SIG forums, in General Science.

You are formally invited if you're serious. (Apart from whatever guidelines are in effect on there). Keyword: Quantum.
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#30406 - 03/13/04 05:21 PM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Malin_Wolf Offline
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Registered: 12/06/02
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Loc: A sleepy little hollow in Flor...
Thank you for the information.
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#30407 - 03/13/04 06:27 PM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Malin_Wolf]
DancingintheDark Offline


Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 745
Quote:

I do have a theory of my own based along the same lines...at least I believe it is my own, I haven't seen it anywhere else yet...that light, being made up of waves and particles, that the waves are "information" that acts upon the particles to give the light or energy it's specific properties.




Your theory does sound like one that used to be seriously considered early on in the history of quantum mechanics, the "pilot wave" theory. In this theory, the light particle (photon) was said to be piloted or pushed along by an accompanying wave. Imagining the wave and particle as seperate entities avoids the paradox that a photon is both at once. The drawback is that this theory could only be proven if someone were able to seperate the particle from the wave and show there are two entities involved, but because nobody has ever been able to do this the theory is usless in a scientific sense!

The correct interpretation, and the one that has been experimentally proven many times, is the probability interpretation. There is a lot that makes people uneasy with it, such as the process of recording a photon's position causes the wavelike side of the photon to magically disappear, but the interpretation has been accepted because it works and is now well established.

So... kudos for the idea, but someone beat you to it!

Oh... and I think it was de Broglie who came up with this theory, which was then expanded on by David Bohm.
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#30408 - 03/13/04 11:06 PM Re: Butterfly effect... [Re: Malin_Wolf]
HLGwyn Offline


Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 128
Loc: Colorado
My analogy places perspective within the whole. Like I stated, I am by no means over-analytical of my surroundings to the point of breaking it down to finite degrees of cause and effect. I understand that by figuring the parts of a model, trends can be somewhat predicted.

The duality of the yin versus the yang meaning some sort of balance is being achieved naturally within the grander scale, the circle that encompasses both. That is a very dry attempt at rationalizing order, in whatever scale one wants to fit it in.

The analogy of the baphomet is similar, but contains another element. The circle outside contains all of course, and the lines of the pentagram form it's active wheel of motion outward to be drawn inward..over and over, unbroken, crossing, overlapping, like the circumstances that cause all effects. The points could be seen as the happenings of motion (a point of time being observed), only to be continued for further motions, and crossings, and overlappings, resulting in more points of happening, but not as before (this is due to the inability to clone any moment exactly). The third element being the disembodied goat head (or man) within the rigid confines of the star and circle is the unexplanable denial of anything repeating itself exactly as before trough the unknown. At the moment, *that* quality of cause and effect still eludes the thinkers as being defined.

To broaden that thought, the scope of cause and effect is beyond our finite form of thinking, due to the infinite variables involved. Models do reflect points of time but no model can be wholly accurate due to serious size and time restrictions. I can think about rabbit and fox populations and their interactions all day long and plug that into "the Whopping Huge Crunching Computer" and still miss most of the data that could play its' hand in the model. I might find clues to alot of what, where and when, and see my technical predictions close to being. Or some virus will come along and smash my attempts at prediction and model making to pieces, by decimationg the fox population.

That third element strikes. What caused that? Sunspots and perhaps, maybe some butterfly lighting off of some branch, stirring the right wind, carrying the right viral organisms. More information was needed to forsee that flick of natures' tail, but who woulda figured on that?

I realise that humans can get close to such knowledge, and that we will get even closer. But I fail to see humanity erase all happenstance from the equation. I do believe that through the carefull study of our surroundings we get closer to the domination of it, but I also think that we are fooling ourselves trying to fit circumstance into reliable repeatable manifestations. We will always be on the receiving end of the great cosmic bitch-slap that is chaos...until we somehow break that code as well.

To conclude, we can crunch behaviour, settings and every action, to model a moment in time, yet we can never fully predict the restless twist of nature to claim an absolute.

That is why I like magic so much...it incorporates the unknown, and in doing so keeps my mind flexible enough to accept the odd variables that are out there waiting to happen.

The affect/effect thing is the circle of results (effect) having influence (affect) having results etc...

I hope I have made myself clear in my ramblings.

My Regards, Gentlemen.


Edited by HLGwyn (03/13/04 11:36 PM)

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