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#310186 - 02/27/08 08:22 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
There is no debate. The scientific argument (evolution) is based on a premise of logic and reason. The arguments against evolution (creationism, UFO's, Santa Clause, etc.) are based almost entirely on presuppositions that require faith. Faith abandons logic. Faith and logic are two dynamically apposed modes of thinking, and could never result in fruitful discussion. Instead we find ourselves engulfed in a heated argument over who has the best version of reality.
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#310204 - 02/27/08 09:30 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Poetaster]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
 Originally Posted By: Poetaster
[

There is a difference between that which is truly un-Satanic and, that which purely rests within the theater of personal taste.



I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Also, I would like to point out that it was neither my intention to poo-poo any quest for knowledge, nor impart the thread with categorical imperatives.

I meant only to say, and perhaps should have said more succinctly, that I don't find any great use in trying to answer any evolutionary questions. I, by myself, am content in being here and am focused on some more mundane aspects of my own existence.

I did not mean to say; one who does search for those answers is wrong or inferior, un-Satanic themselves, or even that anyone else should not look for those answers.

This is human strength and limitation.
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"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." -Mark Twain

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#310206 - 02/27/08 09:33 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: C.F. Kane]
Poetaster Offline
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Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Completely understood now.

That's the only downside to this medium, sometimes confusion can spring up. Thank you for the clarification.

\:\)
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"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#310209 - 02/27/08 09:46 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Poetaster]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
Yes, tone and emotion ARE very difficult TO convey here, and even allcaps can BE misleading.

I find THE same is true with e-MAIL, specifically in a work environment. I am definitely the resident FASCIST as a, not all TOGETHER erroneous, result.
_________________________
"This is my body which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of me." - I Cor. 11:24

"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." -Mark Twain

"Maybe I'll make some teeth and whiskers." -C.F. Kane


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#310215 - 02/27/08 10:08 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
I agree,
....because the greatest minds of our time once thought that the atom was the smallest object, that the Earth was the center of the universe, that the Earth was flat, and some thought that landing on the moon was just crazy.
Even though we uncover many fallacies, there are always more questions.
It's just ridiculous to get to any point and say "I got it", because once you do something or someone will come along, and say "No I've got it".

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#310222 - 02/27/08 10:37 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: DickSteele]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
It's still good to get it to the best degree you can, right?

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#310261 - 02/28/08 05:51 AM Re: A suggestion. [Re: FalloutGod]
Charlie D Offline


Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 15
Well I'll just say again that evolution is based on facts and evidence that back up the state of things. Some may say that things like quantum mechanics may prove the existence in some way of god. But i think all it will prove is that evolution as a whole is completely plausible and possible. Anything in this universe is possible to a degree. We just haven't discovered how to manipulate the universe as we see fit yet.

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#310278 - 02/28/08 08:42 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Oddly enough, yesterday, someone asked if I was a creationist or evolutionist. I paused, and said that, given that those were my choices, I would have to say that I am an evolutionist. There was a reason for my pause.

Do not misconstrue this as a nod toward ID…it is not; but, the reason I do not enter this debate is that I understand how counter-intuitive it is to state that there is not a sense of purpose in nature. I remember sitting in biology class, learning that this flower does this, in order to protect itself; and, that flower does that in order to attract the bees to collect nectar…and pollen…in order to propagate it’s species. Then, I learned that this and that animal developed this, that and the other thing in order to stack the deck in its favor. It’s like Chris Rock once said about how frustrating it can be to be in a relationship…he said that he knew it was wrong to hit a woman. He would never hit a woman; and, that men who did should be locked up, because it is wrong to hit a woman…”But I understand it”. I know that it is intellectual laziness to suggest that there is an outside intelligence working behind the scenes; but, when I look at nature, I understand it. So, while my brain tells me that everything I see is the result of a cosmic game of billiards (I know…that is oversimplifying it), I still see a flower looking pretty to attract the bee to collect the pollen so that he can have sex with another flower…and knowing it. Just as I know that a chemical entered my brain causing me to feel emotions so that I would take a mate in order to propagate; but I still like to feel as if I simply “fell in love”. My brain knows better.
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#310286 - 02/28/08 09:28 AM Re: A suggestion. [Re: FalloutGod]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
 Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
It's still good to get it to the best degree you can, right?


Is it not for us each to decide what is GOOD, and what is BEST within reason, and legality?

If this knowledge truly brings you more power, as you said, then I say, "Hail FalloutGod!"

If not, well, it's still all right to discard the quest, admit your mistake, and move along. Wasting time, in my eyes, is only unforgivable if it is continued to be wasted after having been identified as such.

HS!
_________________________
"This is my body which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of me." - I Cor. 11:24

"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." -Mark Twain

"Maybe I'll make some teeth and whiskers." -C.F. Kane


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#310297 - 02/28/08 10:18 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: Chess]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
The context was something I read concerning the evolution of life. I believe it stated that, given the proper conditions, life is inevitable. The evidence was that the proper conditions existed/exist on Earth, and life evolved naturally.
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#310315 - 02/28/08 11:43 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
I thought about this before and came to the same conclusions. Given endless time and endless space, every possible outcome will happen somewhere somewhen, however unlikely the outcome might be.

I also remember a statement that, given endless time, a monkey jumping on a typewriter will inevitably write down the bible, quran and any other holy or not holy book existing.

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#310324 - 02/28/08 12:42 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
I have a question…and this is coming from way out in left field…is there a dictum, either scientific or philosophical, that states if something is possible, given enough time, it will happen?

There are ways of demonstrating this with mathematics, but it gets a little tricky because you have to be careful when bringing in the notion of infinity, as it can lead to paradoxes. I suppose a "safer" way of stating this is to say that if the probability of an event is greater than zero, then as you do more and more trials, the probability of the event actually happening at least once during that whole session gets closer and closer to one. If there's no limit to how many trials you can have, then that probability is "as close to 1 as you want".

To use an example, let's say that the probability of flipping a coin and getting heads is 1/2. So, a 50% chance of getting heads, and a 50% chance of tails. (We could, if really we wanted to, try to take into account things like the coin landing and staying on its edge, or the atoms all moving in one direction at the same time, etc. but this will just needelessly complicate the math we'd have to do for this example.) The probability of getting heads on one trial (one coin flip) is 1/2. You can do the math to show that the probability of getting heads at least once on two flips is 3/4. Getting heads at least once in three trials is 7/8. On four, 15/16. And so on.

Now mathematically, it's easy enough to take the equations and show that as the number of trials goes to infinity, the probability of seeing heads goes to 1 (meaning a 100% chance). But "infinity" is really just a concept, and not an actual number, so there's no real such thing as flipping a coin an "infinite" amount of times. However, you can get as infinitely close to 1 as you want. Do you want to be at least 99% certain of getting heads to show up at least once? Then toss the coin 7 times. The math gives you about 0.992 for the probability. Want 99.99% certainty? The math tells us to toss it 14 times. 99.999999% certainty? Just 27 flips will do.

Strictly speaking, there's no scientific guarantee that flipping a coin 1,000 times or even 1,000,000 times will ever get you a heads. There's always a probability that's just above zero. But you can get it as infinitely close to zero as you want. If somebody claimed they could flip a fair coin (again, no tricks) and get tails 1,000 times in a row, you'd be stupid not to take a bet against the person.

Tying this back into the subject of evolution:

A common fallacy that creationists love to ignorantly use is the idea that there are only two explanations for the existence of various things: either a deity had a hand in it, or it was the result of "random chance". Then they think they've debunked centuries of science when they say "It's unlikely that this came about by random chance, therefore God did it". The reality though is that the processes of evolution (not to mention abiogenesis too) are NOT random. Evolution is largely driven by natural selection, and the chemicals of DNA don't come about by random collision.
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#310328 - 02/28/08 12:57 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: John.Doe]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: John.Doe
I also remember a statement that, given endless time, a monkey jumping on a typewriter will inevitably write down the bible, quran and any other holy or not holy book existing.

More often it's stated that so many monkeys will eventually create the works of Shakespeare, but yes, it's the same idea: given some event with a non-zero probability, the event will eventually happen as the number of trials goes to infinity. Again, this is an embarrassingly flawed analogy with regards to evolution. Letters from the monkey are assumed to come out randomly and independent of previous letters typed. This is hardly how DNA components come together, nor how natural selection is driven.

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky
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Reverend Bill M.

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#310332 - 02/28/08 01:06 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M


Tying this back into the subject of evolution:

A common fallacy that creationists love to ignorantly use is the idea that there are only two explanations for the existence of various things: either a deity had a hand in it, or it was the result of "random chance". Then they think they've debunked centuries of science when they say "It's unlikely that this came about by random chance, therefore God did it". The reality though is that the processes of evolution (not to mention abiogenesis too) are NOT random. Evolution is largely driven by natural selection, and the chemicals of DNA don't come about by random collision.



The above quote is why I found the statement dubious.
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#310339 - 02/28/08 01:21 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: verkennix]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: verkennix
In it's base form both evolutionism and creationism rellies (sp) on faith. Creationism relies on a faith in a creator, evolutionism relies on the idea that something can be created by nothing, IE. the big bang

Congratulations on falling for Christian propaganda, and obviously not even doing a minimal amount of learning on this subject yourself.

If you bothered to pick up a science book, you might have learned that:
1) The ONLY people that believe in "something being created from nothing" are the creationists
2) Evolution and the Big Bang are two completely different subjects from two completely different branches of science. Evolution is part of biology; the Big Bang is part of cosmology.
3) Evolution doesn't deal with the origins of life. That's abiogenesis.
4) Evolution is NOT based on faith. It is based on evidence from numerous areas, and tested hypotheses. It holds up to the scientific method; creationism doesnlt. It takes no personal revelation to "believe" in evolution. The evidence is objective and available to anybody who makes the effort to learn.
5) Ditto on #4 for abiogenesis and the Big Bang

 Quote:
(look back fare enough and you'll see, nobody knows the beginning one way or another)


6) Time is not a constant linear notion, as Newton had assumed. You might want to check up on Einstein and other science work over the last, oh, 100 years.

7) Falling back on "Well nobody knows for sure" does not give equal validity to all answers. People have been able to rightfully convict murderers even when there were no other witnesses to the actual murder, by a careful study of the evidence. Likewise, science has already been able to study the evidence and learn a lot about the origins of the universe. We don't know anything, but science has sure as hell made more progress than people sitting back and saying "A big invisible man did it".

 Quote:
Really though, is this bulls*it worth arguing over?

Yes. Because there are Christian fundamentalists in my country (USA) who have a specific agenda of teaching their religion in public school science classes. These classes are funded in part by my tax dollars, and can very well lead to a future where the science programs and output of scientists in this country is even more embarrassing than it is now. And it's not exactly helpful when assholes like you willingly remain ignorant of science and think Judeo-Christian dogma can be just as scientfically valid.
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