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#308649 - 02/22/08 09:41 AM Debate on Evolution
LordofDarkness Offline
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Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
I was having a debate about evolution vs creationism on how we came to be. My girlfriend was saying we couldn't have evolved from apes or monkeys because if we had been, then why aren't all monkeys and apes evolved like us? I told her that it was because we are fortunate while they were basically left behind. She added that nature doesn't "choose" who is fortunate and who isn't. She mentioned of her believing in evolution but to a certain extent; that we have come to earth from another planet by alien life forms and abandoned here because of our inability to progess intellectually as fast as them. She also included that "God" is more than likely an alien who is so much highly evolved that us humans in general cannot understand his physical and mental potential and therefore making religionists believe he is all powerful. To support her theory, she added that god's world is not of this one and that it should be on another planet. When I had asked her about the visual similarities we have with apes, she responded that we look similar because we had to adapt to nature in order to survive. The whole time during this debate, I had argued about the theory of man evolving from apes and that all life started here. However she argues that life could not possibly start here without some cause that was not accidental or a "just happened" event and we were set here purposely. I would like your opinions and see what other people's views are on this theory. Thank you for your time.
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#308650 - 02/22/08 09:46 AM Re: Who or What "God" is. [Re: LordofDarkness]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I support evolution as it has a lot of research and study behind it. Versus what your girlfriend believes. Which is in turn largely speculation and theory without any concrete facts or tangible evidance.

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#308656 - 02/22/08 10:18 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
foreverlearning Offline


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 104
It has been proven in labs that give the correct circumstances life can "just happen".

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#308670 - 02/22/08 11:18 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Sorry, amigo, but your girlfriend is a few bonobos short of an orgy on this one.

First, we did not evolve from the Great Apes we see today. Orangutans, bonobos, chimps, and gorillas are our cousins.

Second, evolution often (though not always) takes millions of years. If the chimps are on their way to being like us, we may not get to see that for a while.

Third, the Great Apes have evolved. They are, for the time being, perfectly suited to their environment. They don't have to be like us to survive.

Fourth, if all of the Great Apes had immediately become like us, this would have resulted in incredible and vicious competition back in the day. By having different traits and skills, each animal can occupy its own niche in nature, without having to wrestle with other animals who have the exact same traits and needs.

Fifth, we not only look like the other Great Apes, we are extremely similar to them genetically, too. We share about 98-99% of our DNA with chimpanzees.

And while there may be some evidence to suggest that some adaptations seem to appear in response to a need or a demand for them, for the most part, it's up to chance and fortune.

Some of life's building blocks may come from or exist in space, but there's no real evidence to suggest a grand scheme involving aliens.
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#308730 - 02/22/08 03:42 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: TrojZyr]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Sorry, amigo, but your girlfriend is a few bonobos short of an orgy on this one.


I know I say this regularly but I have to work that phrase into a sentence soon!
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#308733 - 02/22/08 03:53 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I agree with what TrojZyr said
 Quote:
Sorry, amigo, but your girlfriend is a few bonobos short of an orgy on this one.


She doesn't think that life can "just happen" or believe in evolution, but she thinks that humans have adapted from the original aliens that supposedly brought us here. Last time I checked, adaptation is a keyword that evolutionists (i.e. Darwin) coined. So basically she's saying that humans could not have evolved from apes, yet evolving from aliens is plausible?

I am a bit confused as to how her thought process works, unless she's regurgitating someone else's ideas (that would actually make sense).
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#308765 - 02/22/08 05:58 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: AurEum]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Indeed her thought process on the topic seems to be quite a mish mash of contrasting concepts. As ealainotoir says, if evolution from monkeys et al is out and we're from aliens, quite where did the aliens originate from? The only possible end point you could have to such a theory is that it all regresses back to one initial species and that that species either was God or was created directly by God as a seed for all life and has gone around populating other planets ever since.

You're telling me that's more plausible than evolution?
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#308785 - 02/22/08 08:04 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
I was having a debate about evolution vs creationism on how we came to be.


Evolution only deals with how organisms change, not where life originated from. If you want to read up on the branch of science that studies the latter, then look up abiogenesis. I know creationists like to use "evolution" to refer to everything from the Big Bang to planet formation to microbiology, but this is wrong.

Furthermore, this isn't a question you can resolve by a verbal debate. The evidence behind evolution is overwhelming. And as I said on another thread, the people who deny evolution are invariably people who haven't done even a minimumal amount of research on the subject. Which brings me to this...

 Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
My girlfriend was saying we couldn't have evolved from apes or monkeys because if we had been, then why aren't all monkeys and apes evolved like us?

Your girlfriend is an uneducated twit. That's not the way evolution works. It doesn't propose that humans evolved from "monkeys or apes" (does she even know the difference between these two terms?), but rather that primates have a common ancestor. More generally, any two organisms share a common ancestor, some are just higher up the taxonomy branch than others.

 Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
I told her that it was because we are fortunate while they were basically left behind.

Sounds like you could use some reading up yourself. I suggest the following essays as a starter:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

 Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
She added that nature doesn't "choose" who is fortunate and who isn't.

Tell her to research natural selection. Assuming she knows what a library is.

 Quote:
She mentioned of her believing in evolution but to a certain extent; that we have come to earth from another planet by alien life forms and abandoned here because of our inability to progess intellectually as fast as them.

What is she, a Raelian or something? If she has evidence of this, then by all means, publish it. She'd be at least guarenteed a Nobel Prize for science. Or, isn't it much likely that she does NOT have evidence that has somehow escaped every other scientist, since there isn't any?

 Quote:
She also included that "God" is more than likely an alien who is so much highly evolved that us humans in general cannot understand his physical and mental potential and therefore making religionists believe he is all powerful.

And you think you can "discuss" science with somebody who actually believes in such crap?

 Quote:
However she argues that life could not possibly start here without some cause that was not accidental or a "just happened" event and we were set here purposely.

That is the rallying cry of the spiritual pipe dreamer. The only people who think science is proposing things came about by "accident" or "random chance" are deluded creationists, such as your girlfriend.
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#308789 - 02/22/08 08:11 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: AurEum]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
So basically she's saying that humans could not have evolved from apes, yet evolving from aliens is plausible?

I am a bit confused as to how her thought process works

My guess is that it's largely driven by a need to feel like a special product, without any effort of her own doing.
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#308798 - 02/22/08 09:13 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Bill_M]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M
[quote=LordOfDarkness]
Furthermore, this isn't a question you can resolve by a verbal debate.


Increasingly, I feel it's a question that I'm sorely tempted to resolve by administering a few beatings.

Though, if this really is "pick your ancestor" day, I'll definitely go with dragons. Or possibly Predacons. (If I pick my ancestor, do I also get to pick my descendants, absolutely free?)
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#308815 - 02/23/08 12:10 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: TrojZyr]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Increasingly, I feel it's a question that I'm sorely tempted to resolve by administering a few beatings.

Though, if this really is "pick your ancestor" day, I'll definitely go with dragons. Or possibly Predacons. (If I pick my ancestor, do I also get to pick my descendants, absolutely free?)

You know, Witch TrojZyr, I'm not one to type "LOL" after replies and leave it at that. But both lines of this had me cracking up. Thank you.
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http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#308822 - 02/23/08 12:55 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Bill_M]
GEBS Offline



Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Philadelphia
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M
primates have a common ancestor.


My son and I recently had a discussion about this. We both agree that this is the most likely truth, as far as we can tell.


Thank you for posting those links. We will surely have some interesting discussion as we read through them.

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#308830 - 02/23/08 01:57 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: GEBS]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I already looked over the top three links, very good information. I learned those things in high school but not so in depth. With all the creationists abound I started to confuse evolution as a process with evolution theory of how the process works.

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#308833 - 02/23/08 02:05 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: foreverlearning]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
Incorrect. It has been proven that organic compounds will form under the correct lab conditions but there's a big difference between an organic compound and "life".
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#308834 - 02/23/08 02:26 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Virus9]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
That's relative to how you define life, correct?

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#308870 - 02/23/08 10:14 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: AurEum]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
She doesn't think that life can "just happen" or believe in evolution, but she thinks that humans have adapted from the original aliens that supposedly brought us here.


I have heard that a lot. They say humans are too complex (or advanced) to have evolved from animals, so they had to be brought here by aliens. And my question is... what did those advanced aliens evolve from in the first place?
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#308874 - 02/23/08 10:23 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Old_Pig]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: Tha_Pig

I have heard that a lot. They say humans are too complex (or advanced) to have evolved from animals, so they had to be brought here by aliens. And my question is... what did those advanced aliens evolve from in the first place?


Geez, Pig. Do you even have to ask? OTHER ALIENS, of course.

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#308875 - 02/23/08 10:43 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Virus9]
foreverlearning Offline


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 104
I was making reference to the primordia soup experiments, which I was told proved life was possible under the right conditions. Conditions that are believed to have been the conditions on earth long long ago. I just read a little more about it, and it proved that amino acids and pantethein could be created. So not necessarily life, just two big parts of the beginning stages of life.
I can't believe by sophomore biology teacher lied to me \:\(


Edited by foreverlearning (02/23/08 10:44 AM)

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#308911 - 02/23/08 01:20 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
spook show Offline
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Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 356
Loc: under your bed
Considering the fact that creatures like spiders are better equipped for survival than us, if we were created by aliens, they must not have been too bright if we were the best thing they could come up with.

Spiders have been here longer than humans, and will probably be here long after we're gone.

Of course, maybe spiders were just created by a smarter breed of aliens.
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#309229 - 02/24/08 07:20 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: spook show]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
The Spiders are the aliens. They are only waiting in dark corners in silence for the day they can fully reveal themselves. You are lucky though (you could even say "chosen"). You see, they have revealed themselves to me and for a mere $3000 a session I can slowly tell you the great plan they have for us. Hurry, before we all get washed down the Great Water Spout.
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#309297 - 02/24/08 10:45 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: HammerOfDoubt]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Hurry, before we all get washed down the Great Water Spout.


Be not fooled! For though the Great Water Spout comes for us all, just as surely shall the Sun come to dry up all the rain! And thus, as we start upwards once more, the Circle of Life is linked again.

So, be not afraid, Spiderians! Ye shall live for eternity in a Sisyphian waterspout nightmare! ;\)

-Chess

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#309299 - 02/24/08 10:49 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: HammerOfDoubt]
phoenixrisen Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 176
Loc: Manchester, England
 Originally Posted By: HammerOfDoubt
The Spiders are the aliens. They are only waiting in dark corners in silence for the day they can fully reveal themselves. You are lucky though (you could even say "chosen"). You see, they have revealed themselves to me and for a mere $3000 a session I can slowly tell you the great plan they have for us. Hurry, before we all get washed down the Great Water Spout.


It's an arachnophobe's worst nightmare
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#309304 - 02/24/08 10:56 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Chess]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Hurrah, Chess, your name is finally in orange!

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#309348 - 02/25/08 02:34 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: FalloutGod]
verkennix Offline


Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: va
In it's base form both evolutionism and creationism rellies (sp) on faith. Creationism relies on a faith in a creator, evolutionism relies on the idea that something can be created by nothing, IE. the big bang (look back fare enough and you'll see, nobody knows the beginning one way or another)
Really though, is this bulls*it worth arguing over? Life is short, enjoy yourselves! You might get hit by a bus tommorrow, and your arguing something that you cant possibly prove in the here and now?
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#309356 - 02/25/08 03:37 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: verkennix]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
A Satanist might argue, that it doesn't really matter to us where we come from and that when we die, we're dead.

Some christians, however, argue that the way we came into existence and the idea of where we'll end up have to dictate our lifes.

At that point, arguing over it does matter, except you find yourself in the lucky position of not being harrassed by these ideas.

Not that reasonable arguments will change the narrow-minded, but reason and knowledge are a formidable layer of protection against bullshit of any kind. \:\)
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#309384 - 02/25/08 07:26 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: verkennix]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Evolution as in change, that over time things do evolve has been proven. How the process of evolution began, is theory but at least that has more back bone than everything just appeared. You argue two different things.

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#309391 - 02/25/08 07:46 AM Why? [Re: LordofDarkness]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I have been dying to ask a question, but have not, because I have feared it would create more heat than light. But, it is Monday, and I allow myself to make one error in judgment a week, so…I am curious what someone gets out of the discussion concerning human origins. Is there a personal stake? Is it for fun?

By discussion, I mean beyond the point where it is obvious the other party has their mind made up, but it continues. It may be a case of metal sharpening metal.
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#309443 - 02/25/08 10:09 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: verkennix]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: verkennix
evolutionism relies on the idea that something can be created by nothing, IE. the big bang


Spoken like a true Christian! Where did you read that? Watchtower magazine or a Chick Track?

That's word by word, the explanation you hear from every fundamentalist ignoramus that doesn't even check the basics of the very concept he is opposing.

Evolution and the Big Bang are two completely different things, unrelated to each other. Only the retarded science-phobic mix them together.
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#309456 - 02/25/08 10:40 AM Re: Why? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
I am curious what someone gets out of the discussion concerning human origins. Is there a personal stake? Is it for fun?


I just find it fascinating. To watch the development of the human animal, and to watch the development of other species, allows me to question what traits will be dominant over time, or what would change based on environmental change, etc...

People, generally, suck, but the human animal is amazing. The adaptations that have allowed us to do the incredible things we can do provoke thought and further creation and adaptation.

I also like knowing, because I do know--not think, that Creationists are just plain wrong. I like to be able to state what the fossil record shows, etc...

So, yeah, I find it fun.

Y~
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#309732 - 02/26/08 09:50 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
After reading "A brief history of time" the evidence is fairly conclusive that evolution is responsible for our existence and that the universe has always existed in some form. Dr. Hawking brings us the concept of God several times but I guess he forgot to mention the one simple scientific law: "Matter can not be created nor destroyed" hence, no creator is possible.

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#309741 - 02/26/08 10:58 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Adveser]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Everything is made of energy. little molecules rubbing against each other in a certain pattern at a certain speed. Well, at least that's what I recall from physics. So the energy that made up the world years ago is the same energy that makes us and our world today. Right?

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#309745 - 02/26/08 11:02 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: FalloutGod]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
The conclusion from the book is that all the energy in the universe = 0, to answer your question, yes.

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#309781 - 02/26/08 02:29 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: FalloutGod]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
little molecules rubbing against each other in a certain pattern at a certain speed.


For some reason I find that description very erotic...

Sorry for being off topic.
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#309826 - 02/26/08 06:03 PM A suggestion. [Re: Adveser]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Guess what?

As a Satanist you really don't have to know all the answers to all the big questions such as:

Is there a God?

Was there a Big Bang?

Will my pizza get delivered on time?

And so forth.

It may be fun to speculate and you can place your bets, but it really does not matter whether Darwinian evolution, Lamarkian evolution, intelligent design, unintelligent design, creationism, or utter boredom was responsible for people, the universe or anything at all for that matter.

Maybe Hawking will be proven over time to be precisely correct in every utterance he has ever made.

Probably not.

"Today's science is tomorrow's belly laugh." -Unknown

As long as you can keep these assumptions in perspective, have fun!

The critical issues remain the same:

Your personal life.

This really is just a suggestion.

You do not have to agree with me.

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#310090 - 02/27/08 01:46 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1685
Loc: Denmark
First of all, from a scientific point of view, humans did not evolve from apes. Apes and humans belong to the same biological super-family called Primates. That means that both apes, monkeys and humans originate from the same ancestor, they all evolved from that ancient ancestor, but they didn't evolve one from another. Taking into account the same ancestor – hence the resemblance of humans and monkeys in some anatomical aspects.

Evolution as a concept is based on the survival of the fittest. That which fails to prevail – dies, and that which is stronger – survives. That is called the ''bottleneck'' effect. This is also a commonly accepted scientific concept. One of the probable, also scientifically proposed reasons why humans evolved so quickly and climbed on top of the food chain is that they are erect (if you remember the old Homo Erectus) which enabled them to use their hands.

This opened a lot of possibilities for them – many new things to learn – thus – the development of the human brain which is much more advanced than that of the apes. It is peculiar that genetically, all primates, so both monkeys and humans are more than 90% genetically similar.

Creationism as a concept is, in my opinion, outdated and obsolete. If water, ammonia, carbon dioxide and oxygen are mixed in a glass container and then heated and a strong electrical current is introduced into this mix – there is a result – some very simple amino acids are produced, which are building blocks of proteins that all life forms today are built from. That could give an explanation of how the building blocks of life were created in the first place.

When you study the human cells, you will discover that there is a concept of mitochondrial DNA. This DNA is different from genomic DNA which commonly known as just ''DNA''. The evolutional explanation for this is that there was symbiosis of certain types of organisms many millions of years ago – when they started working together as cells to produce more complex organisms.

To conclude, when it comes to discussing whether or not something is accidental – I have to say that when considering the probability of something happening – nothing is ever 100% possible or 100% impossible. Thus, there is no such thing as a coincidence. Even a probability of 1% that something will happen – may cause substantial changes in evolution – if it does happen. An example is radiation. There is a very small probability (mathematically) that a neutron will leave the atomic core due to its instability – yet it happens – and it commonly accepted as a natural phenomenon of gamma radiation.

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#310095 - 02/27/08 02:15 PM Necessity? [Re: LightAngel]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: LightAngel


To conclude, when it comes to discussing whether or not something is accidental – I have to say that when considering the probability of something happening – nothing is ever 100% possible or 100% impossible. Thus, there is no such thing as a coincidence. Even a probability of 1% that something will happen – may cause substantial changes in evolution – if it does happen. An example is radiation. There is a very small probability (mathematically) that a neutron will leave the atomic core due to its instability – yet it happens – and it commonly accepted as a natural phenomenon of gamma radiation.



I have a question…and this is coming from way out in left field…is there a dictum, either scientific or philosophical, that states if something is possible, given enough time, it will happen? As I said, this is just following through on a brain fart.




Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (02/27/08 02:16 PM)
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#310097 - 02/27/08 02:17 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Goodwin`s law or something?
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#310098 - 02/27/08 02:24 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Shade Offline
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Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
"On a long enough timeline, everyone's life expectancy drops to zero." ~Fight Club

Sorry. I love that movie.
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#310099 - 02/27/08 02:26 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1685
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
 Originally Posted By: LightAngel


To conclude, when it comes to discussing whether or not something is accidental – I have to say that when considering the probability of something happening – nothing is ever 100% possible or 100% impossible. Thus, there is no such thing as a coincidence. Even a probability of 1% that something will happen – may cause substantial changes in evolution – if it does happen. An example is radiation. There is a very small probability (mathematically) that a neutron will leave the atomic core due to its instability – yet it happens – and it commonly accepted as a natural phenomenon of gamma radiation.



I have a question…and this is coming from way out in left field…is there a dictum, either scientific or philosophical, that states if something is possible, given enough time, it will happen? As I said, this is just following through on a brain fart.




I can give you a hint on the probability theory. Let's imagine you take a coin and you toss it 10 times. You get 7 heads and 3 tails. But when you solve this problem mathematically – you will get that the chances of both outcomes are 50%. So 50% of the time tails, 50% of the time – heads. This probability calculation is based on the fact that you toss the coin an infinite number of times. So in a way yes – if given enough time and opportunity – there is a chance that everything might eventually happen.

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#310134 - 02/27/08 04:54 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
I have a question…and this is coming from way out in left field…is there a dictum, either scientific or philosophical, that states if something is possible, given enough time, it will happen? As I said, this is just following through on a brain fart.


"Anything not forbidden is compulsory."

It's more of an aphorism than a scientific principle, and it's not universally accepted, to say the least. You'll most often hear it invoked in discussions about particles that are theorized to possibly exist, but have never been detected -- like tachyons or negative matter.

-Chess

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#310160 - 02/27/08 06:49 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
Of course you don't. That is the essence of it all i think. That the actions and behaviour of someone should be from their own hearts, which fits in nicely and on topic with this thread. Exploring the unknown and knowable is rather fun I think. Even if there were a creator or anything like that that set the universe as we know it in motion I don't think I would behave any differently. The issue really is that absolutely none of the scientists or religions have gotten to understand much of the universe at all. Steven Hawking is very humble in that obvious admission. It is however very logically to assume that sicence rather than religion is most definitely going in the right direction to understand the nature of things. As a religion, Satanism probably beats out both in regards to actually being the most relevant.

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#310171 - 02/27/08 07:35 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
 Originally Posted By: Nemo

The critical issues remain the same:

Your personal life.

This really is just a suggestion.

You do not have to agree with me.


I don't, but I do nonetheless.

I have never understood the need some people possess to have "all" the answers. That may have been possible for Leonardo, but it just isn't possible today. Furthermore, I find it to be decidedly un-Satanic bothering with those "answers" at all. They are a distraction form attaining happiness.

Now, if someone were to prove to me how the answer to the ultimate question of life were going to provide additional enjoyment for me in my present moment then I would listen. Until then, I am finished "coming to believe," and I will be out there somewhere DOING for myself.

On a sycophantic side note: I rather enjoy all your postings, and have recently received your book in the mail. I am eager to read it, though it is, at this point, somewhere down the "list."


HS!
_________________________
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#310172 - 02/27/08 07:37 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: C.F. Kane]
C.F. Kane Offline

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Oh, and by the way, The "answer" is 41, I "believe."
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#310177 - 02/27/08 07:53 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: C.F. Kane]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
 Originally Posted By: Exsanguinate!!!


I have never understood the need some people possess to have "all" the answers. That may have been possible for Leonardo, but it just isn't possible today. Furthermore, I find it to be decidedly un-Satanic bothering with those "answers" at all. They are a distraction form attaining happiness.



If being powerless makes you happy then I agree with you. However, I find knowledge to be power. Having power however minute makes most people, including my self, quite happy.

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#310183 - 02/27/08 08:13 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: C.F. Kane]
Poetaster Offline
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Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Quote:
Furthermore, I find it to be decidedly un-Satanic bothering with those "answers" at all. They are a distraction form attaining happiness.


This opinion presupposes that acquiring knowledge for the sake of knowledge is somehow inferior to other joyful acts. I think it is decidedly "un-Satanic" to assume that since you don't find the pursuit of knowledge to be a condition of happiness, no one else should either; solipsism is dangerous, for good reason.

There is a difference between that which is truly un-Satanic and, that which purely rests within the theater of personal taste.
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#310186 - 02/27/08 08:22 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
There is no debate. The scientific argument (evolution) is based on a premise of logic and reason. The arguments against evolution (creationism, UFO's, Santa Clause, etc.) are based almost entirely on presuppositions that require faith. Faith abandons logic. Faith and logic are two dynamically apposed modes of thinking, and could never result in fruitful discussion. Instead we find ourselves engulfed in a heated argument over who has the best version of reality.
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#310204 - 02/27/08 09:30 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Poetaster]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
 Originally Posted By: Poetaster
[

There is a difference between that which is truly un-Satanic and, that which purely rests within the theater of personal taste.



I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Also, I would like to point out that it was neither my intention to poo-poo any quest for knowledge, nor impart the thread with categorical imperatives.

I meant only to say, and perhaps should have said more succinctly, that I don't find any great use in trying to answer any evolutionary questions. I, by myself, am content in being here and am focused on some more mundane aspects of my own existence.

I did not mean to say; one who does search for those answers is wrong or inferior, un-Satanic themselves, or even that anyone else should not look for those answers.

This is human strength and limitation.
_________________________
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#310206 - 02/27/08 09:33 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: C.F. Kane]
Poetaster Offline
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Registered: 01/20/06
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Completely understood now.

That's the only downside to this medium, sometimes confusion can spring up. Thank you for the clarification.

\:\)
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#310209 - 02/27/08 09:46 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Poetaster]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
Yes, tone and emotion ARE very difficult TO convey here, and even allcaps can BE misleading.

I find THE same is true with e-MAIL, specifically in a work environment. I am definitely the resident FASCIST as a, not all TOGETHER erroneous, result.
_________________________
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#310215 - 02/27/08 10:08 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
I agree,
....because the greatest minds of our time once thought that the atom was the smallest object, that the Earth was the center of the universe, that the Earth was flat, and some thought that landing on the moon was just crazy.
Even though we uncover many fallacies, there are always more questions.
It's just ridiculous to get to any point and say "I got it", because once you do something or someone will come along, and say "No I've got it".

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#310222 - 02/27/08 10:37 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: DickSteele]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
It's still good to get it to the best degree you can, right?

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#310261 - 02/28/08 05:51 AM Re: A suggestion. [Re: FalloutGod]
Charlie D Offline


Registered: 01/17/08
Posts: 15
Well I'll just say again that evolution is based on facts and evidence that back up the state of things. Some may say that things like quantum mechanics may prove the existence in some way of god. But i think all it will prove is that evolution as a whole is completely plausible and possible. Anything in this universe is possible to a degree. We just haven't discovered how to manipulate the universe as we see fit yet.

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#310278 - 02/28/08 08:42 AM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: LordofDarkness]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Oddly enough, yesterday, someone asked if I was a creationist or evolutionist. I paused, and said that, given that those were my choices, I would have to say that I am an evolutionist. There was a reason for my pause.

Do not misconstrue this as a nod toward ID…it is not; but, the reason I do not enter this debate is that I understand how counter-intuitive it is to state that there is not a sense of purpose in nature. I remember sitting in biology class, learning that this flower does this, in order to protect itself; and, that flower does that in order to attract the bees to collect nectar…and pollen…in order to propagate it’s species. Then, I learned that this and that animal developed this, that and the other thing in order to stack the deck in its favor. It’s like Chris Rock once said about how frustrating it can be to be in a relationship…he said that he knew it was wrong to hit a woman. He would never hit a woman; and, that men who did should be locked up, because it is wrong to hit a woman…”But I understand it”. I know that it is intellectual laziness to suggest that there is an outside intelligence working behind the scenes; but, when I look at nature, I understand it. So, while my brain tells me that everything I see is the result of a cosmic game of billiards (I know…that is oversimplifying it), I still see a flower looking pretty to attract the bee to collect the pollen so that he can have sex with another flower…and knowing it. Just as I know that a chemical entered my brain causing me to feel emotions so that I would take a mate in order to propagate; but I still like to feel as if I simply “fell in love”. My brain knows better.
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#310286 - 02/28/08 09:28 AM Re: A suggestion. [Re: FalloutGod]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
 Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
It's still good to get it to the best degree you can, right?


Is it not for us each to decide what is GOOD, and what is BEST within reason, and legality?

If this knowledge truly brings you more power, as you said, then I say, "Hail FalloutGod!"

If not, well, it's still all right to discard the quest, admit your mistake, and move along. Wasting time, in my eyes, is only unforgivable if it is continued to be wasted after having been identified as such.

HS!
_________________________
"This is my body which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of me." - I Cor. 11:24

"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." -Mark Twain

"Maybe I'll make some teeth and whiskers." -C.F. Kane


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#310297 - 02/28/08 10:18 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: Chess]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
The context was something I read concerning the evolution of life. I believe it stated that, given the proper conditions, life is inevitable. The evidence was that the proper conditions existed/exist on Earth, and life evolved naturally.
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#310315 - 02/28/08 11:43 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
I thought about this before and came to the same conclusions. Given endless time and endless space, every possible outcome will happen somewhere somewhen, however unlikely the outcome might be.

I also remember a statement that, given endless time, a monkey jumping on a typewriter will inevitably write down the bible, quran and any other holy or not holy book existing.

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#310324 - 02/28/08 12:42 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
I have a question…and this is coming from way out in left field…is there a dictum, either scientific or philosophical, that states if something is possible, given enough time, it will happen?

There are ways of demonstrating this with mathematics, but it gets a little tricky because you have to be careful when bringing in the notion of infinity, as it can lead to paradoxes. I suppose a "safer" way of stating this is to say that if the probability of an event is greater than zero, then as you do more and more trials, the probability of the event actually happening at least once during that whole session gets closer and closer to one. If there's no limit to how many trials you can have, then that probability is "as close to 1 as you want".

To use an example, let's say that the probability of flipping a coin and getting heads is 1/2. So, a 50% chance of getting heads, and a 50% chance of tails. (We could, if really we wanted to, try to take into account things like the coin landing and staying on its edge, or the atoms all moving in one direction at the same time, etc. but this will just needelessly complicate the math we'd have to do for this example.) The probability of getting heads on one trial (one coin flip) is 1/2. You can do the math to show that the probability of getting heads at least once on two flips is 3/4. Getting heads at least once in three trials is 7/8. On four, 15/16. And so on.

Now mathematically, it's easy enough to take the equations and show that as the number of trials goes to infinity, the probability of seeing heads goes to 1 (meaning a 100% chance). But "infinity" is really just a concept, and not an actual number, so there's no real such thing as flipping a coin an "infinite" amount of times. However, you can get as infinitely close to 1 as you want. Do you want to be at least 99% certain of getting heads to show up at least once? Then toss the coin 7 times. The math gives you about 0.992 for the probability. Want 99.99% certainty? The math tells us to toss it 14 times. 99.999999% certainty? Just 27 flips will do.

Strictly speaking, there's no scientific guarantee that flipping a coin 1,000 times or even 1,000,000 times will ever get you a heads. There's always a probability that's just above zero. But you can get it as infinitely close to zero as you want. If somebody claimed they could flip a fair coin (again, no tricks) and get tails 1,000 times in a row, you'd be stupid not to take a bet against the person.

Tying this back into the subject of evolution:

A common fallacy that creationists love to ignorantly use is the idea that there are only two explanations for the existence of various things: either a deity had a hand in it, or it was the result of "random chance". Then they think they've debunked centuries of science when they say "It's unlikely that this came about by random chance, therefore God did it". The reality though is that the processes of evolution (not to mention abiogenesis too) are NOT random. Evolution is largely driven by natural selection, and the chemicals of DNA don't come about by random collision.
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#310328 - 02/28/08 12:57 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: John.Doe]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: John.Doe
I also remember a statement that, given endless time, a monkey jumping on a typewriter will inevitably write down the bible, quran and any other holy or not holy book existing.

More often it's stated that so many monkeys will eventually create the works of Shakespeare, but yes, it's the same idea: given some event with a non-zero probability, the event will eventually happen as the number of trials goes to infinity. Again, this is an embarrassingly flawed analogy with regards to evolution. Letters from the monkey are assumed to come out randomly and independent of previous letters typed. This is hardly how DNA components come together, nor how natural selection is driven.

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky
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#310332 - 02/28/08 01:06 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M


Tying this back into the subject of evolution:

A common fallacy that creationists love to ignorantly use is the idea that there are only two explanations for the existence of various things: either a deity had a hand in it, or it was the result of "random chance". Then they think they've debunked centuries of science when they say "It's unlikely that this came about by random chance, therefore God did it". The reality though is that the processes of evolution (not to mention abiogenesis too) are NOT random. Evolution is largely driven by natural selection, and the chemicals of DNA don't come about by random collision.



The above quote is why I found the statement dubious.
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#310339 - 02/28/08 01:21 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: verkennix]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: verkennix
In it's base form both evolutionism and creationism rellies (sp) on faith. Creationism relies on a faith in a creator, evolutionism relies on the idea that something can be created by nothing, IE. the big bang

Congratulations on falling for Christian propaganda, and obviously not even doing a minimal amount of learning on this subject yourself.

If you bothered to pick up a science book, you might have learned that:
1) The ONLY people that believe in "something being created from nothing" are the creationists
2) Evolution and the Big Bang are two completely different subjects from two completely different branches of science. Evolution is part of biology; the Big Bang is part of cosmology.
3) Evolution doesn't deal with the origins of life. That's abiogenesis.
4) Evolution is NOT based on faith. It is based on evidence from numerous areas, and tested hypotheses. It holds up to the scientific method; creationism doesnlt. It takes no personal revelation to "believe" in evolution. The evidence is objective and available to anybody who makes the effort to learn.
5) Ditto on #4 for abiogenesis and the Big Bang

 Quote:
(look back fare enough and you'll see, nobody knows the beginning one way or another)


6) Time is not a constant linear notion, as Newton had assumed. You might want to check up on Einstein and other science work over the last, oh, 100 years.

7) Falling back on "Well nobody knows for sure" does not give equal validity to all answers. People have been able to rightfully convict murderers even when there were no other witnesses to the actual murder, by a careful study of the evidence. Likewise, science has already been able to study the evidence and learn a lot about the origins of the universe. We don't know anything, but science has sure as hell made more progress than people sitting back and saying "A big invisible man did it".

 Quote:
Really though, is this bulls*it worth arguing over?

Yes. Because there are Christian fundamentalists in my country (USA) who have a specific agenda of teaching their religion in public school science classes. These classes are funded in part by my tax dollars, and can very well lead to a future where the science programs and output of scientists in this country is even more embarrassing than it is now. And it's not exactly helpful when assholes like you willingly remain ignorant of science and think Judeo-Christian dogma can be just as scientfically valid.
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#310350 - 02/28/08 01:32 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Bill_M]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
When I read your posts I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. \:\) Thanks for helping clarify. You have a way with words and detail that I seem to lack.

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#310408 - 02/28/08 03:45 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
JayLucif Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/02
Posts: 1705
Loc: Helheim
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky


This statement should be engraved into stone and placed at every location of importance in the world. This just says it all when it comes to some of the things I have witnessed on the internet over the years.
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Freedom, baby is never having to say you're sorry. Guilt is like a bag of fuckin' bricks. All ya gotta do is set it down. John Milton - The Devil's Advocate!

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#310413 - 02/28/08 04:05 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: JayLucif]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
When I read your posts I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. \:\) Thanks for helping clarify. You have a way with words and detail that I seem to lack.

Thank you. Glad you enjoy my posts.

 Originally Posted By: JayLucif
This just says it all when it comes to some of the things I have witnessed on the internet over the years.

I remember first seeing it in a fellow COS member's signature, some time in the late 90s. I had to do a little searching to get the exact quote and who said it through.
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#310546 - 02/28/08 10:16 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Considering I just took a probability class.

P(Head at least once in two flips) = ?

S= {HH, HT, TH, TT}

P(Head at least once in two flips) = 1/4+1/4+1/4+0/4= 3/4

S(for three flips) = {HHH, HHT, HTH, THH, HTT, THT, TTH, TTT}

The common probability problem with a fair coin flip.

Sorry, I got exicted over the math.
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#310550 - 02/28/08 10:29 PM Re: Debate on Evolution [Re: Bill_M]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
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I took a gene/cell biology class at my university. The professor was discussing the Hox genes that are seen in all animals. She then asked the class if the Hox gene gave credence to the concept to a common origin for most life. Fifty percent of the class raised their hands in favor of it providing good evidence for such, 15 percent raised their hands for "I don't know" category, while the remaining 35 percent raised their hands saying it did not lead to any evidence for a common ancestor.

This is not a religious school. It is actually a high ranking science university. So, I found it a bit interesting (although small) case study of people's devotion to their predispositions. Of course the class was for non-biology majors, but still.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#310697 - 02/29/08 12:39 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Discipline]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Discipline
Sorry, I got exicted over the math.

So did I, which was probably why my reply was long. \:\)

In general, the proability after n trials is ((2^n) - 1)/(2^n). I think the simplest way to calculate it is
P(heads showing up at least once in n trials) =
1 - P(tails showing up on all n trials) =
1 - P(tails on first trial)*P(tails on second trial)*(etc.) =
1 - (1/2)(1/2)...(1/2) =
1 - (1/2)^n =
(2^n - 1) / 2^n
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#310940 - 03/01/08 09:42 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Letters from the monkey are assumed to come out randomly and independent of previous letters typed. This is hardly how DNA components come together, nor how natural selection is driven.


Well, to my understanding randomly is exactly the way DNA components come together. There are just other factors determining if the new (random) combination is successfully reproducing or not...

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#310941 - 03/01/08 09:49 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: JayLucif]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: JayLucif
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky


This statement should be engraved into stone and placed at every location of importance in the world. This just says it all when it comes to some of the things I have witnessed on the internet over the years.


I like what the quote says about the internet. But it has hardly any significance for the discussion, because a 20 or 30 years old internet seems to be a very poor measurement stick for something happening given endless time.


Edited by John.Doe (03/01/08 01:20 PM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#310942 - 03/01/08 09:59 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: John.Doe]
JayLucif Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/02
Posts: 1705
Loc: Helheim
Hum really, wow massive amounts of information is at the fingers tips but very few actually use it to educate one's self. So I won't hold my breath with all the masses of monkeys beating on keyboards to do much of any real world worth, at least on the basic individual level that is. Just the short amount of time for me is enough thank you, without layered and watched over forums likes this fine example of one we are using right now, these boards would eventually generate into pointlessness. Though the monkeys can pound away, I in the meantime will be watching eye inspiring sunrises and sunsets, sipping my favorite beverage, reading a favorite written piece of literature, while the misdirected pound away never ever getting IT in the first place.
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Freedom, baby is never having to say you're sorry. Guilt is like a bag of fuckin' bricks. All ya gotta do is set it down. John Milton - The Devil's Advocate!

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#310989 - 03/01/08 01:00 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: John.Doe]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: John.Doe
Well, to my understanding randomly is exactly the way DNA components come together. There are just other factors determining if the new (random) combination is successfully reproducing or not...

The point is that creationists' "reasoning", as reflected in this analogy, is wrong. You can't look at a strand of DNA and say "Well a DNA strand is a precise combination of N nucleotides, of which there are 4 different varieties, therefore the odds of this particular strand coming together is 1/(4^N). This is an astronomically small number, therefore GodDidIt." That would be like looking at a page from the monkey's typewriter and saying "Look, the monkey typed 'TSDQQ'. The chances of getting that exact sequence are 1 in 11,881,376. Wow!"

Mutations are largely random, but as you point out their selection is anything BUT random. The DNA in my body now is not the result of nucelotides getting together randomly. It's the result of how my parents' DNA copied, which is a result of how their parents' DNA was copied, and so on back to much more simpler DNA and (a billion years before that) the natural formation of simple amino acids.
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#310992 - 03/01/08 01:01 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: John.Doe]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: John.Doe
I like what the quote says about the internet. But it has hardly any significance for the discussion, because a 20 or 30 years old internet seems to be a very poor measurment stick for something happening given endless time.

I see that the humor of the quote has flown right over your head.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

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#311006 - 03/01/08 01:27 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
It seems that we are pretty much in agreement then. Arrangements of DNA take place randomly, but looking at species today only shows you the successful variants, those who made it through the selection process.

Regarding your quote: I did get the humor and find it pretty hilarious. I only pointed out its insignificance for the discussion about evolution because, in my opinion, it was taken too seriously...

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#311008 - 03/01/08 01:31 PM Re: Necessity? [Re: John.Doe]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
DNA is far less random than most would assume. You have ATGC bases for coding. A attaches to T and G attaches to C. That is fairly well structured. It is true that when a zygote is produce the two different sets of chromosomes tend to scramble a bit, but the general locations and structure of the DNA sequence remains the same.

I don’t think that leads to any sort of superior creator or anything that silly. However, I do think it leads to a certain idea that evolution or even biology is far more discriminating and rigid in its designs than most give it credit. Even by the selection of reproduction, useful mutations, and competition, biology has developed its own form of organization.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#311836 - 03/04/08 07:52 AM Re: Necessity? [Re: Bill_M]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
Interesting discussion going on here.

I'd only like to add, that to calculate a probability at all, one needs a priori knowledge on the object one is talking about. I can only calculate the probability of x tails in a row because I know how a coin looks like, and that there is only heads and tails and so on (simplified).

What's the probability for gods existence, then? What's the probability that god works exactly how he is depicted in the bilble? Hell, who knows? Any speculation on god is therefore quite useless.
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