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#310424 - 02/28/08 04:44 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Humans are a dirty species. We've upset a lot of very old balances, just as a side effect of doing our thing on this planet.

But this is nothing new.

Humans have hunted many other species to extinction. We've created deserts and slashed forests. We've transplanted species halfway across the world only to see them get out of control and throw a monkey wrench into existing ecosystems. We've diverted and reversed rivers and are in the process of destroying an inland sea. We've created anoxic "dead zones" in the oceans.

And yet, here we still are.

Yes, we're pumping out greenhouse gases at a prodigious rate. Opinions differ on what exactly the ultimate consequences of this will be, but even in the very worst case they won't be the End Of The World. It might prove a very expensive nuisance. It might require heroic engineering works to mitigate the damage. Or it might prove to be a wet firecracker. But we'll adapt to the new situation, whatever it might be, and deal with it. Just like we've been doing for thousands of years.

That's what we do best. We're humans.

-Chess

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#310429 - 02/28/08 05:04 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: Chess]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
With due respect, good sir, the issue is not exactly whether this is the end of the world, or whether it threatens the end of our species (in the worst-case forecasts) - but the end of the world as we know it, and the inauguration of a new period of want that threatens individuals. The biggest changes will have to do with food and service prices, infrastructure collapse, political instability, human migrations, and incidence of violence.

No doubt many Satanists pride themselves on their power and resourcefulness, and their ability to weather the worst unscathed. Surely a cataclysm is a thinning of the herd, it favors the strong and destroys the weak. Students of history, eg. of the European Dark Age, or of the collapse of some pre-Columbian civilizations (which may have also been environmental), will snicker at this view. Or students of politics: One need only ask: When the shit hits the fan, who will be killing whom to get what? and how will they be doing it?

As in all things: Do what you must, then do what you can, and resolve yourself to the fact that, thanks to your limits and shortcomings, you will probably wind up dead in the end anyway, or worse.
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#310432 - 02/28/08 05:26 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
I fear you have been "cargo culted".
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#310434 - 02/28/08 05:32 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: RandomStranger]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I have? Um what exactlly do you mean by that?

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#310435 - 02/28/08 05:34 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Get mad, get loud, get moving...only problem is, who are you going to get mad at and, what can you do about it?

Cycles happen, that can't be helped.

It's important to note that what climate change activists cite as proximate causes of Global Warming, chief among them being the greenhouse gas C02, realistically speaking, are logistically impossible to mitigate in a democratic fashion. It would require strong-arm tactics to seriously consider implementing many of their proposed policy overhauls and absolute changes. As a species we have grown dependent upon the things which might* spell our eventual demise. That's just a fact jack and, you only need to consider China to understand how ineffectual (I think impossible) any one of the proposed solutions could be.

So if you want to recycle, buy a hybrid and place hundreds of solar panels in your back yard, be my guest, but don't seriously believe that you're making a difference.

*I place emphasis on "might" because it is hardly an inevitability that we are orchestrating any such destruction.
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#310438 - 02/28/08 05:42 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: Poetaster]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
You have a valid point and recycling or getting mad over it wasn't on my to do list or prerogative.

There's just one thing.

Apathy can be deadlier to a human more than any disaster, man made or not.


Edited by FalloutGod (02/28/08 05:48 PM)

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#310439 - 02/28/08 05:45 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
This topic has been pulled at by so many political agendas, Left and Right, that it's not worth talking about at all unless you're willing to dig into the details. But, as a political topic, that would not be appropriate for the Upstairs forums.

So, I will say this much, and bow out.

There are MANY distinct issues here that should be distinguished. Here are four, just to give an example - this is not meant to be exhaustive.

1) Is dangerous global warming occurring?
The consensus of the scientific community seems to be that yes, it is.

2) Is global warming caused by human actions?
The consensus seems to support the view that it probably is, but that the data is not strictly conclusive.

3) Is there anything that we can do to mitigate or reverse the effects of global warming?
As far as I've ever heard, there is NO consensus on this.

4) What economic or regulatory policies would accomplish this? or, if it's not possible to mitigate the climatic effects, what policies would help us best deal with the consequences of global warming?
This is the part of this debate that's political, properly speaking.


Edited by reprobate (02/28/08 05:46 PM)
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#310443 - 02/28/08 05:58 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: reprobate]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
With due respect, good sir, the issue is not exactly whether this is the end of the world, or whether it threatens the end of our species (in the worst-case forecasts) - but the end of the world as we know it, and the inauguration of a new period of want that threatens individuals. The biggest changes will have to do with food and service prices, infrastructure collapse, political instability, human migrations, and incidence of violence.


An excellent point. But I think it boils down even further: ceasing to emit industrial carbon (that is, turning off the tap on things like oil and coal) would cause far greater human suffering than even the worst-case climate change scenario that's been offered.

But once nuclear fusion finally becomes practical as an energy source, things will change. There are plenty of benefits to a fusion economy over an oil one, and the whole "no more carbon emissions" thing is just a nice little extra.

-Chess

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#310454 - 02/28/08 06:16 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: Chess]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I have a friend who is well-informed on this matter from the perspective of Peak Oil activists, and he suggested that existing and foreseeable nuclear technology can help offset some of the effects of an oil-poor economy, BUT that nuclear technology can't come anywhere near the yield of oil in terms of a measure called "energy return on energy invested" (ie., net energy output). The upshot of this is that the conversion to an oil-poor (or at least, oil-independent) economy will require most people to adapt to a standard of living with lower consumption.

I'd have to learn more about the details before I was willing to buy into this claim, but it's troubling to hear, anyway.


Edited by reprobate (02/28/08 06:16 PM)
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#310475 - 02/28/08 07:17 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Fallout, do a forums search on global warming. I'm a bit bored with the topic at this point, but you'll find some of my original comments, and some earlier discussions.

Oh, and just a random musing, unfortunately, it looks like corn ethanol might end up causing as many problems as it purports to solve, by driving up corn prices, and wheat prices as well. Ah, but ethanol from algae shows promise, last I read...

Algae and fungi are both extremely cool, in case people didn't know ;).
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#310547 - 02/28/08 10:17 PM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Responsible [Re: FalloutGod]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Granted it may not be man made, but surly all these researchers and scientists can't be full of hot air.


Why not?

It has happened before.

However I applaud your concern to determine if any short term changes will impact you.

Excellent and well-placed concern!

So that actually narrows what you wish to determine.

You could begin with what the projections are for temperatures according to the most frantic "scientists" out there and ask yourself if that would make life impossible for you or not.

I suspect you will discover the answer is "not" (and by a long shot) but it is best to verify these things yourself.

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#310603 - 02/29/08 03:05 AM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
Trouble_Maker Offline


Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan
Is global warming a hoax? Probably not; at least some evidence supports it. Is it played up to cause terror? Likely, given the penchant for doing so by "corporate America". The question is "why are they using global warming to cause consternation in the general american public?" It is my belief that it is another distraction tactic.

Remember when everyone wanted to know why the president went after Bin Laden, then jumped into Iraq and failed to come up with WoMD? What did Bush do? He made a bold and controversial statement about a hot topic: Gay Marriage.

I think that corporate america is trying to use global warming to distract our attention from the real environmental issue; our dwindling fossil fuel supply. The longer they can shift the point of focus from the supply to the effect, the more money they can make before we collectively decide to switch to alternative energy.

If you look at recent events from a non passionate, impersonal perspective, you might find that we (Americans) are being herded into reacting to what is fed to us on the six o clock news.

Global warming, ice caps melting, polar bears becoming homeless, gas emissions, etc ad infinitum. Smoke screen.

I do believe the environment is warming, but so what? In a couple hundred more years it will cool again. In the late 1700's there was a "year without a summer" noted all over the world. Crops devastated, widespread famine. Part of a geothermal cycle? Some believe so. What you believe is up to you. I believe that the industrialization of the world has exacerbated the existing condition, causing the swing to be faster and more pronounced, but nature will right itself after we have no more hydrocarbon conversion.

In a few more centuries we will be a technologically advanced agrarian society, and the sheep will survive. They will be healthier sheep for the hardships they have endured, and us wolves will (or should be) grateful that they survived, for without them, the wolves would feed upon one another.

Us smarter wolves will have prepared our future packs to survive, and carry on our lines. We will guard and nurture our flocks to ensure our own survival. Do not curse the huddlers, for without them, who would we be disdainful of? Who would sow that we may reap? The age coming will belong to us, so accept that global warming will benefit those wise enough to remain elite from the degenerated melee that will ensue from the fall of the industrial civilization.
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#310638 - 02/29/08 08:27 AM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: Trouble_Maker]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
"Corporate America"

Substituting "Satan" as Universal Scapegoat Word since 1995!
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#310640 - 02/29/08 08:46 AM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
I don't know about you but I'm freezing my fuckin' ass off today.
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#310669 - 02/29/08 10:27 AM Re: Global Warming and Responsibility to the Reponsible [Re: FalloutGod]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
Happy 22nd.

There is no doubt about the quickening rate of glacier melting. There is still debate among the science community about exactly how much of an effect humans have on the worldwide environment (weather, climate shifts).

I do my best within reason to not trash my immediate environment. There is nothing I can do about the greater portion of the source of pollution, so I don't worry about it.
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