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#311621 - 03/03/08 05:17 PM Question concerning "Greater Magic"
TheHauntedAngel Offline


Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 5
The last time I read the Satanic Bible was about a year ago, where I had it in .pdf format, which made it rather annoying to read, and I didn't really get into it. I recently bought an actual copy of it however, and finished reading it today. My question is thus, even though the answer seems fairly obvious given the content of the Books of Belial and Leviathan - Do "true" Satanists believe in an actual concept of ethereal magic as a force that can be summoned the way "white" magicians believe it can be?

I realise that the opening statements of the Book of Belial say that it is very much open to interpretation, but I think if you read LaVey's words carefully, it seems obvious what he means. Lesser Magic seems to be using your cunning, skill or wit to manipulate a situation to your advantage - the greatest example LaVey gives is a woman using her sexuality to achieve her goals. However, I'm confused as to the concept of Greater Magic, as I thought Satanism was completely atheist? Even Peter Gilmore stated that Satanism begins with atheism, but throughout the Books of Belial and Leviathan, it seems that there IS a belief in a supernatural force that can be summoned - that the user can call upon the aid of the "Forces of Darkness" or other demons (despite a belief in no Gods other than one's self) in order to perform a Destruction, Compassion or Lust ritual with the desired effects.

So, can anyone clear this up for me, please?

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#311623 - 03/03/08 05:31 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
 Originally Posted By: TheHauntedAngel
Do "true" Satanists believe in an actual concept of ethereal magic as a force that can be summoned the way "white" magicians believe it can be?



No.

Read those books again. Satanists do not believe in any supernatural beings.

I don't know what a "true" Satanist is. There are only Satanists and non-Satanists.
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#311635 - 03/03/08 06:35 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Phineas]
TheHauntedAngel Offline


Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 5
They don't believe in super natural beings, but what about all the rituals, that are incredibly specific as to how many candles of each colour you are allowed - the chanting of "Hail Satan!" and "Shemhamforash!", or the pointing of the sword at each point on a compass, and speaking one of the different names of Satan? I understand that they could be entirely symbolic, but then why waste time with a ritual that in the end, isn't too dissimilar from the black mass, which is ridiculed earlier on in the book. LaVey also makes specific mention of "the forces of darkness" and such; or would they just be metaphors for a humans more carnal side?

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#311642 - 03/03/08 06:50 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
HINTS:

- "archetypal symbolism"
- "intellectual decompression"
- "suspension of disbelief"
- "psychodrama"
- "the dark force in nature"
- "man needs ritual and dogma"
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Flesh and Bones
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“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#311643 - 03/03/08 06:51 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: TheHauntedAngel
The last time I read the Satanic Bible was about a year ago, where I had it in .pdf format, which made it rather annoying to read,

Not to mention illegal and possibly edited. But anyway...

 Quote:
Do "true" Satanists believe in an actual concept of ethereal magic as a force that can be summoned the way "white" magicians believe it can be?

No, these are two different schools of thought, for a variety of reasons.

 Quote:
However, I'm confused as to the concept of Greater Magic, as I thought Satanism was completely atheist?

"Atheism" means literally nothing but "no belief in deity". Period. Satanism is a non-theistic religion, and Magus Gilmore is correct in saying that Satanists are atheists. It still doesn't mean you have to swallow the other dogma that your average, run-of-the-mill, self-identified "atheist" is expected to do (dismissing all forms of symbolism and ritualized expression, rejecting all things esoteric in any context, liking Douglas Adams, voting Democrat, etc.).

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#311644 - 03/03/08 06:55 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Bill_M]
TheHauntedAngel Offline


Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 5
Ah, that sums it up for me for the most part. Thanks for clearing this up, guys. I think it was mostly Mr. Obsidian's quotes that helped - thanks to the others also, though! \:\)

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#311645 - 03/03/08 06:56 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: TheHauntedAngel
I understand that they could be entirely symbolic, but then why waste time with a ritual that in the end, isn't too dissimilar from the black mass, which is ridiculed earlier on in the book.

Reread the chapter "Some Evidence of a New Satanic Age". If you can't grasp why The Satanic Bible doesn't stop at the Book of Lucifer, or the concepts of "intellectual decompression", then you've missed the boat. We're atheists, but we're atheists who know better than to blindly throw away the power of organized ceremony and ritualistic expression. Once you recognize what these human-developed tools are and their underlying purpose, they can be quite helpful.
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http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
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#311654 - 03/03/08 07:17 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Bill_M]
TheHauntedAngel Offline


Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 5
Thanks, I'll re-read that and give it some more thought.

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#311661 - 03/03/08 07:36 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
You're most welcome.

Like any great book, you'll probably discover something new or revealing every time you read The Satanic Bible.

I definitely agree with the wise advice proffered by Warlock BillM, Warlock Reprobate, and Magister Phineas.

Have fun!
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#311663 - 03/03/08 07:37 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
You are encouraged to adapt your rituals to create an environment that's truly immersive for YOU, based on your psychological needs and your personal sense of aesthetics. The rituals "as written" are starting-points and examples. Create your own mythology and your own body of rituals.
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#311669 - 03/03/08 07:58 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: reprobate]
TheHauntedAngel Offline


Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 5
Thanks a great deal to all who replied \:\)

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#311670 - 03/03/08 08:00 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: reprobate]
Philotechnic Offline

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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
And to expand on what Reprobate said, look at ritual as putting on a play, something where you can indulge in your emotions which could be hindering you in your normal life, all inside a secure ritual chamber which is essentially your stage.

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#311755 - 03/03/08 11:41 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Philotechnic]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Experience helps quite a bit.

Once you set up an area for ritual, and actually go ahead and perform a ritual, (it's easy to find a "reason". My first ritual was the ritual for charging an object in The Satanic Scriptures.) you will understand it's use a bit better, provided you truly step into said area with your brain shut off, and your emotions in full swing.

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#311833 - 03/04/08 07:31 AM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
spook show Offline
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Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 356
Loc: under your bed
Greetings TheHauntedAngel.

In addition to what everyone here has said, may I also suggest you read The Satanic Rituals by Doctor LaVey, specifically the chapter entitled 'Concerning the Rituals'.
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#312093 - 03/04/08 09:38 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: TheHauntedAngel]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
So, can anyone clear this up for me, please?


Yes.

I can. I doubt I can do so with a simple post here however.

Doing so will be an important part of my next book on Satanism.

For now, let me suggest that in addition to the answers you have already been given here which I feel are essentially correct, you are also leaping to some conclusions that I would suggest are unwarranted.

First, if you yourself come to discover that magic is real then please remember that Anton LaVey made a careful point of explaining that the unknown magic of today will likely become the known science of tomorrow.

Second, anthropomorphization is a common part of how the mind works on deep levels but does not have to be a description of what is real as much as a formula for making certain things work.

For example, you seem to equate "forces" with "entities" such as demons. Well, electricity is a force but very few today would assume it is a demon. If I wish to use electricity I can use a switch to turn on the lights. My flipping the switch is a formula for using electricity to turn on the lights.

If I use the anthropomorphization of a force and this results in magic working that does not mean that my mental "switch" proves there are devils doing the dirty work. My use of the names of old Gods and Devils in ritual does not require that they exist but does affect my mind and emotions in specific ways. It means that using this mental tendency can potentially produce an effect. And that is what the real magician seeks - results.

I see the same kind of confusion offered when someone has a heart attack, experiences a near death experience, later reports being out of body, observing events at a distance, later verifying that the events proved to be correct and then declares, "Therefore I know there is a God!"

"God" has nothing to do with it. Maybe he has acquired some evidence that an out of body experience is real (and many would even debate that on the basis of his experience). However, leaping to the conclusion that he will survive death and live forever in heaven with God is not justified on the basis of that experience.

There are other suitable explanations that do not require an afterlife, much less "God".

I would encourage you to read the relevant portions of The Satanic Bible again and grasp the overall premises upon which Anton LaVey suggested the practice of ritual magic. You might consider also reading the relevant portions of The Satanic Witch regarding ritual.

The dark force we call Satan has multiple meanings all of which are spelled out in The Satanic Bible and in ritual where you are expected to practice a willing suspension of disbelief, you are then free to take any and all of the old Gods and Devils and use them in the manner that moves you on unconscious levels to hopefully evidence the supernormal.

...If you want to try to do so.

But if this is not your cup or tea you do not have to do so at all.

Satanism is always about "Indulgence, not compulsion".

Greater Magic is strictly an option and not a requirement for the Satanist.

If you apply Lesser Magic effectively you may never find any need for Greater Magic at all. Ever.

Quite seriously, ask yourself what you want in life. Wealth? Health? Power?

There already exist numerous ways to achieve all of these and Lesser Magic exquisitely and directly targets all of them.

Lesser Magic is often already known for why it works and does not have the potential problem of requiring that you change or enlarge your view of reality to make it "work". You can easily grasp that Lesser Magic already works just as anyone can understand how stage magic works once you are shown the tricks.

Greater Magic is dealing with issues that are less popularly understood and operate in the darkness of unconscious mechanisms rather than in the conscious light of already understood mechanisms of human psychology where Lesser Magic exists.

So Lesser Magic is, in my opinion, far more accessible and practical for most Satanists to employ. Greater Magic requires being able to perform some very clever self-manipulations with issues of perception, evidence-testing and authority-rejection.

Greater Magic is simply harder to do. I do not state that as a challenge but simply as a statement of fact.

You really have to have the kind of personality that is attracted more to the exceptions of the rule, than the popularity of a rule. The sorcerer tends to be enthralled with the unusual, the white crow that proves that all crows are not black.

Just as it has been suggested by Anton LaVey that a person is born as a Satanist, I feel that so too are some born to be drawn to Greater Magic.

So if you find the entire concept of Greater Magic does not work for you, good! Don't waste your time trying to fit your round peg into the Greater Magic square hole. Be yourself.

If you are attracted to it you will not find yourself trying to make it fit into your view of reality.

You simply won't be able to leave it alone.

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#312109 - 03/04/08 10:37 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Nemo]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Very finely put, Magister Nemo!
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#312141 - 03/05/08 12:23 AM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Nemo]
AurEum Offline
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Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Thank you for taking the time to write that. It was a pleasure to read.
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#312195 - 03/05/08 09:31 AM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
If you apply Lesser Magic effectively you may never find any need for Greater Magic at all. Ever.



Magister Nemo I have a question in respects to this particular subject.

Would you say that the more capabilities in Lesser Magic are aquired the more potential and depth in the capabilites of Greater Magic can be possessed? What I mean is, the better someone is at Lesser Magic the more in depth they can utilize Greater Magic? The Balance Factor comes to mind.
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#312203 - 03/05/08 10:23 AM One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Unknown]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Quote:
Magister Nemo I have a question in respects to this particular subject.

Would you say that the more capabilities in Lesser Magic are aquired the more potential and depth in the capabilites of Greater Magic can be possessed? What I mean is, the better someone is at Lesser Magic the more in depth they can utilize Greater Magic?


While I'm not Magister Nemo, I'd like to add a response, if I may, for what it's worth:

Lesser Magic could be described as "applied mind control techniques".

Can you see how this might be beneficial for the practice and application of Greater Magic?

I certainly can

I don't think this was entirely the point to which Magister Nemo was alluding, however.

He will clarify further though, I'm sure.

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#312206 - 03/05/08 10:31 AM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Linguascelesta]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Makes sense. ;\)

Thanks for the response Warlock!
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#312213 - 03/05/08 10:58 AM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Nemo]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Nemo


If you apply Lesser Magic effectively you may never find any need for Greater Magic at all. Ever.




I agree!
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#312268 - 03/05/08 01:42 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Unknown]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Again, this question wasn't addressed to me either, but...

 Originally Posted By: Unknown
Would you say that the more capabilities in Lesser Magic are aquired the more potential and depth in the capabilites of Greater Magic can be possessed?

In short, I'd say no. Despite a few overlaps, I think these two fields ultimately require two completely different skill sets.

I've seen some people who just had a natrual knack for lesser magic, but were way too self-conscious to be able to put themselves in the necessary intellectual decompression mindset for the ritual chamber. And I've done rituals with some people who were incredibly commanding in front of the altar, possessing a natural aptitude for ceremonial expression, but in real life were just too socially retarded to get their lesser magic together. In short, I've seen some who "get" The Satanic Witch but not The Satanic Rituals, and vice versa.

Again, there are some overlaps of sorts: understanding the balance factor, charisma (especially for group rituals), etc. But excelling at one is no guarantee that you'll excel at the other.
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#312285 - 03/05/08 03:05 PM I do not have to say so. [Re: Unknown]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Would you say that the more capabilities in Lesser Magic are aquired the more potential and depth in the capabilites of Greater Magic can be possessed?


I do not have to say so.

Anton LaVey already said so:

 Quote:
"The more readily one can apply the principles needed to effect a proficiency in Lesser Magic, the greater one's chances of attaining through the use of ritual - or ceremonial - magic." -page 21 of The Satanic Rituals


But read it in context. Context is always everything.

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#312295 - 03/05/08 03:33 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Unknown]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I agree with Warlock Linguascelesta.

As I keep mentioning, context is everything.

If your mastery of Lesser Magic causes you to rigidly deny the possibility of Greater Magic actually working to produce results in the external world, then that would tend to undercut the principle of being able to truly suspend your disbelief for performing Greater Magic in the first place. You could enjoy ceremonial ritual and perhaps benefit from psychodrama for its own sake, but attempting real magic would be difficult and probably pointless.

For example, Penn & Teller seem to have a vested interest in debunking the possibility of Greater Magic actually working. They are both fantastic masters of Lesser Magic. However their need to prove a non-magical worldview undercuts the possibility that (1) they would ever seriously attempt such a thing or (2) being able to pull it off even if they did try.

However is that really a problem for them? Are they not both entirely successful, world-renowned entertainers?

So this example points to the issue I personally hold to be true. Those attracted to the practice of Greater Magic are those who are attracted to the mysteries of life more than just the results they would normally desire in life. Lesser Magic can address almost all of these normally desired results with greater ease and faster reliability.

I would never choose to try to argue with someone who feels that real magic is just bunk any more than I would try to argue a dog into acting like a cat.

Satanism throws a wide net over all of these issues and for the Satanist there is plenty of choice. This flexibility is enjoyable and in accord with the nature of each of us.

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#312342 - 03/05/08 06:38 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Nemo]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
Magister Nemo, just want to say that I am really looking forward to reading your new book. Magic is quite an interesting topic.

However I don't know if Greater Magic is harder than Lesser.
For me, Lesser Magic is probably at least as hard.

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#312364 - 03/05/08 08:54 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: fire_vixen]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
That's interesting. Why do you think so?

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#312445 - 03/06/08 08:36 AM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Nemo]
capistrano Offline


Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
"I've seen some people who just had a natrual knack for lesser magic, but were way too self-conscious to be able to put themselves in the necessary intellectual decompression mindset for the ritual chamber. And I've done rituals with some people who were incredibly commanding in front of the altar, possessing a natural aptitude for ceremonial expression, but in real life were just too socially retarded to get their lesser magic together." -Bill_M

This answers a lot, really. Thank you for giving out this answer. And thank you for having asked your question, Unknown. Very helpful reads. \:\)
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#312479 - 03/06/08 12:12 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Wow Magister Nemo, thanks for the expanded answer.

This inborn potential you speak of, I think I know what you mean.

The grammar school I attended was built over an Indian burial ground. I was always curious about this so I would find myself going into the bathroom and turning the lights off staring into the mirror. I would almost project my feelings into the mirror and would experience emotional sensations. I don't know if that could be considered as an indicator about what you're speaking of but I know as a child, I was always curious about the mysteries of this world.

I really am looking forward to your book.
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#312480 - 03/06/08 12:21 PM Re: Question concerning "Greater Magic" [Re: Bill_M]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Again, there are some overlaps of sorts: understanding the balance factor, charisma (especially for group rituals), etc. But excelling at one is no guarantee that you'll excel at the other.


I see.

I suppose depending on the nature of the Ritual, it does offer another question then. Once a Ritual is done and the results begin to manifest, how would one without Lesser Magic be able to handle such results?

An example: "Johnny" doesn't have a job. So "Johnny" stmbles upon The Satanic Bible/Rituals and gives it a go to secure a job. He fills out a few applications and then lands a job. Not just any job but a job he Ritualize in specific.

How would "Johnny" be able to appreciate the results if he doesn't have the Lesser Magic capabilities to keep it or enhance it? Or would the Ritual then be a complete failure because he wouldn't be able to handle the results?

I hope this question makes some sense.
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#312481 - 03/06/08 12:26 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: capistrano]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
This answers a lot, really. Thank you for giving out this answer. And thank you for having asked your question, Unknown. Very helpful reads.


You're welcome.

Learning is such an essential element, especially when it comes to Greater Magic!
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#312520 - 03/06/08 03:13 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: Nemo]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
I think greater magic is easier for me because it is more focused on the self- using own willpower and resources to obtain results, acting accordingly afterwards to ensure success etc. Lesser magic is more about manipulating others, an ability that I find lacking in myself.
I find self control and manipulation of the self to be easier than manipulation of others.
It is probably my experiences which made one easier than the other. It's possible that my ability to manipulate others has been inactivated somehow.

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#312547 - 03/06/08 05:06 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: fire_vixen]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I am so self-centered myself that I rarely have an interest in manipulating others too. But I have found even this kind of attitude affects others, so in a way no matter what one does, it will manipulate the social situation in some way.
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#312554 - 03/06/08 05:51 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: TheNaturalForce]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
Being self-centered is one of the main keys in Satanism, in order to fulfill my needs and deeds, there's a big part of lower magic involved on a daily base. Life would be very boring for me if I didn't use it in the positive or negative way to my clients, my friends and beloved ones. Manipulating people and having good results are priceless. Lying to those you don't care about and having good results are priceless.
It's like playing poker with the ultimate pokerface, make sure no-one sees through your system.
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#312598 - 03/06/08 10:40 PM It's all about results. [Re: fire_vixen]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Ah, well you see that is where I suspect that you are using the more narrow definition of Greater Magic in which it only involves you.

I see that as little more than just personal fantasy. If that is what you mean then I agree with you. Doing that would be easier than having to use Lesser Magic to produce objective results.

However, I see Greater Magic as really only being important to the degree that it does produce effective results in others and the outside world.

I see Greater Magic as having to manipulate others and the external world directly.

For example, with Lesser Magic you know that if someone likes you they are more likely to want to do things to please you. So you can easily take a page from Dale Carnegie and employ the fact that if you can honestly compliment someone for something and talk about what they are interested in (themselves), they will tend to like you and then do as you wish.

Good politicians do this all of the time.

Nothing in that strategy requires you to overcome what you already assume is true about reality.

Now if you wanted someone you could not see or write or speak to at a distance to do something for you, then if would be harder for you because in our culture we are regularly told that telepathy is not real by authority figures. To oppose that kind of authority and overcome that kind of peer pressure is certainly not easy.

So when I suggest that I view Greater Magic as harder to use I mean that it is less common (and less acceptable in our current culture) to assume it can work.

Lesser Magic already fits inside the world as most people see it. That makes it easier from the get go in my opinion. You know why it works and you know exactly what to do to make it work.

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#312676 - 03/07/08 09:37 AM Re: It's all about results. [Re: Nemo]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Nemo,
First I would like to say that your comments have been rather interesting on this topic so I look forward to your book. The idea of Greater Magic has always been rather odd to me, at least from the standpoint of reaching out beyond your subconscious. You said that you see “Greater Magic as having to manipulate others and the external world directly.” This is what I personally am confused on, mostly because I have not seen either a ritual (or Greater Magic Working) that I have done cause a change to the outside world or to another human being; or have I seen evidence that another’s ritual (or Greater Magic Working) caused actual change. From this I have concluded I am no magician because I either lack the subtlety or understanding of actually pulling this off.

You mention a couple of things here, telepathy being one, and cultural influence being another. Now I know there are studies that claim marginal success in the area of thought sending/receiving, and usually this is beyond the scope of luck. But these results are not consistent nor are they easily reproduced. Telepathy just is not reliable enough to be a viable action. I would also like to point out that cases on prayer and open-heart surgery have shown no affect that prayer works. Now I know that many people are going to come with the simple cop-out that its because its prayer and not Greater Magic, if we look at the mechanics being involved, imagery, emotion and focused will, it may be safe to assume that the whether the prayer or Greater Magic ritual were done in Satanic imagery, Christian imagery, Hindu imagery, Lovecraft imagery, or well any imagery, as long as the imagery unlocked the emotions then focused at the intended target or outcome, it should produce the same if not similar results. But from, at least my limited experience on it, no matter how you “dress your ritual” the outcome does not actually change the world around.

You point to cultural influence as a possible blocker, if you will, of/in the mind, and I can understand this to a point, being that the mind has ways of working against itself. Maybe the mind, because of cultural influence, can put up walls that prevent such actions as telepathy from happening. But what about the areas of the world that are more accepting of different mind capabilities, or what about, take the Christian prayer experiments on open-heart surgery patients, these individuals aren’t limited in their scope of what they believe could/should/will happen, but we still don’t see the results as being affective. So I don’t think that cultural influence is necessarily the reason why Greater Magic doesn’t work.

I would be curious to see what you (or anyone else that wishes to contribute) think the limits of the mind are? What qualities of the paranormal do you attribute as possible? I assume you believe in telepathy from your above post, but what about psychokinesis, precognition, remote viewing? I would guess that effecting the world around you would not just be people, but events, what about objects? Of far can Greater Magic take you?

I personally see Greater Magic as means of understanding the self, it seems to me that it is more of a way to regulate the self, altering perceptions and awareness. But I just can’t see how it extends beyond the self except in the possibility of “finer tuned sense”, if you will, to notice your environment and take advantage of events and your surrounds a little better or more accurately to your desired outcome.

I am also curious if you or anyone can point to situations that may prove that Greater Magic does influence or affect the outside world. Like I said before, I just haven’t seen the evidence, but that doesn’t mean others haven’t and it there is something somewhere that can show that it works, I would be interested in looking into that. But as of current I just don’t understand how someone can believe that they influence world strictly on willpower.

Thanks,
Tim

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#312721 - 03/07/08 01:54 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: aa_nerut]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
What experiments have you conducted regarding telepathy? Are you certain it is not viable enough?

Is praying to a deity the same as Greater Magic? Are you certain of this?

Does the fact that your rituals don't work demonstrate it doesn't work at all?

How would you go about verifying someone else's claim that their ritual did work?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#312766 - 03/07/08 04:56 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: Nemo]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
I can see your point, Magister.

I didn't mean that it's about a personal fantasy for me though.
While those are great, they are only great to the extent that it helps attain results in the real world of course.

I understand that Greater Magic also has to do with manipulating others. Greater and Lesser Magic are not necessarily mutually exclusive and I didn't try to imply so. It makes sense why you mentioned LaVey's quote from Satanic Rituals
"The more readily one can apply the principles needed to effect a proficiency in Lesser Magic, the greater one's chances of attaining through the use of ritual - or ceremonial - magic." -page 21 of The Satanic Rituals

Yes, Lesser Magic is in the realm of common sense and Greater Magic is not. I see Lesser Magic as having the ability to act effectively in a social setting. I might call it social cunning or intuition. It may be common sense to some, but unfortunately not so much to me. There is just so much to learn in that regard too!


"Now if you wanted someone you could not see or write or speak to at a distance to do something for you, then if would be harder for you because in our culture we are regularly told that telepathy is not real by authority figures. To oppose that kind of authority and overcome that kind of peer pressure is certainly not easy."

Are you suggesting that authority and peer pressure are the only obstacles to being good at telepathy and other things outside of common view of reality?

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#312792 - 03/07/08 07:26 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: Phineas]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Personally I have not conducted any telepathy experiments; I just don’t know anyone who claims they have telepathic powers. But in an answer to your questions, and thank you for your reply, am I certain it’ not viable enough. Yes, in my eyes and in what I’ve read, but it’s tough to say 100%. I can also understand that what you may be alluding to, that the results of certain “experiments”, cannot always be taken as “fact”, especially if all I am doing is reading or taking someone else’s word for it.

As far as praying being the same thing as Greater Magic, I tend to think so. Again the reason why would be that imagery is used (the deity) to create an emotional, and very often powerfully emotional, experience in the person praying. The prayer is focused to a god, which can be thought of as a creation in the mind of the person praying, to push the emotional desire, the outcome of the prayer, to its intended target. This I see very similar to Satanic rituals using Satanic imagery rather than (fill in the blank god or religious) imagery to attempt the same result, the desired outcome of the individual doing the ritual. At least this is my understanding of these processes, and I could be wrong, I do not claim an expert on any of these topics.

But the danger in splitting hairs about prayer or Greater Magic is that someone somewhere might say, well prayer isn’t going to work cause its Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Hindu, or Blah Blah Blah, and not Satanic. What makes the imagery more viable than another is strictly in the eye of the beholder is it not? I just don’t what this to turn into a “We are the only ones that can do it because we’re Satanist” or “Only Satanist can do magic, no one else can”. And please understand I am not assuming you or anyone is saying that, but it’s something that may pop up by a (in my eyes) less educated individual.

As far as the fact that my rituals don’t work making all others are null and void, absolutely not. As I said, I am no magician and claim that I do not have any viable proof either from my own rituals, or others, old friends of mine, or other “magicians” I have know. But does this say that others cannot do it, no, but in my experience I am more inclined to say that ritual doesn’t actually affect the world around you. Now do rituals produce an affect on the mind of the individuals participating in them, sure, but that doesn’t mean the outside world, just individual’s perceptions of it.

I would think that in order to verify a ritual being successful would be to first know what the desired goal was, then, if the outcome happened, look at the possible situations that were present to cause the outcome. Having ruled out all other possibilities than the ritual, then I would call that a success.

This of course is just my experience, I would be interested in hearing actual evidence of Greater Magic working, but I know that some people may not wish to talk about said evidence, keeping the mystery there does have some power too. But I wont be heartbroken if others don’t share, such is life.

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#312952 - 03/08/08 12:49 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: fire_vixen]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Are you suggesting that authority and peer pressure are the only obstacles to being good at telepathy and other things outside of common view of reality?


If there are no other factors blocking one then why not?

At the same time if you attempt to enable a blind person to classify the colors in a rainbow you may have a deeper problem to deal with than his possible disbelief in the existence of rainbows.

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#312960 - 03/08/08 01:27 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: aa_nerut]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12498
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I understand what you are suggesting and have really only two replies I can offer in this context.

First, I would suggest that you may be only aware of evidence from individuals and groups who have a prejudiced agenda regarding the evidence for psi. You might consider looking at what the "other side" ;\) has to offer in terms of evidence. A good place to begin that kind of effort is http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/New/index.html .

Second, as I have made quite clear previously, I have no intention of arguing with nor attempting to convince anyone of anything in this regard. Greater Magic requires personal effort to test and validate results. Failure must be rigorously acknowledged as well as success. Otherwise the effort will only at best result in self-delusion.

From a practical, utilitarian perspective most Satanists will never need to use Greater Magic, as Lesser Magic can usually get you the results you might desire faster and more easily as I have discussed briefly in this thread.

And, quite frankly, the more personal evidence you produce that Greater Magic does not or cannot work for you, the more deeply you dig for yourself a psychological hole you would need to climb back out of in order to make it work for you in the future. This is an area in which just trying harder can backfire in my opinion.

It is entirely possible to produce negative hallucinations through hypnosis in which the subject cannot see another person in the same room. It is quite easy to understand from this extreme but very real clinical example how what we permit ourselves to perceive can be controlled by suggestions we accept from others.

So from a very practical perspective I offer that if someone has tendencies to assume that Greater Magic cannot create change beyond the confines of their own skin, they would be wise to not condition themselves to reinforce that assumption.

Don't try to do "impossible" things.

You will eventually "prove" they are impossible.

For any reading these words who would wish to avoid that kind of problem, my suggestion would be to begin by asking yourself exactly why you assume that real magic cannot work.

Apply doubt.

Do research.

If after that you find you can weaken the "certainty" that you are just kidding yourself about all of this then you might be better able to consciously discover that Greater Magic can work for you.

Again, this all goes back to two suppositions I happen to hold:

(1) If you feel that real magic is "bunk" then honor your feelings and stick to Lesser Magic.

(2) Lesser Magic is not inferior to Greater Magic. It simply requires less to successfully employ than the other one does.

A Satanist is a Satanist with or without Greater Magic as real magic.

Results really are everything.

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#313035 - 03/08/08 04:35 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: Nemo]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Nemo
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply, much food for thought as well. I can see where I may 1) putting too much thought into one side of the argument 2) wasting time in an area that my just not be worth my time if I continue to dig the whole I’m in.
So thank you and Phineas as well.

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#313043 - 03/08/08 05:12 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: aa_nerut]
SinisterSLA6669 Offline


Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Bay Area, California
Its so easy. Just remember ignorance is bliss. keep going. It all has something to do with you.
_________________________
if one can pull aside the curtain of fear and enter the Kingdom of Shadows, the eyes will soon become accustomed and many strange and wonderful TRUTHS will be seen.


ASLV
TSR
pg14(P)2&3

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#313108 - 03/08/08 11:24 PM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: x9x]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
 Quote:
It's like playing poker with the ultimate pokerface, make sure no-one sees through your system.


Sometimes the poker face just doesn't work because everyone can see your hand. ;\) So this is where ultra covert manipulation with seemingly infinite nuance is required. It can be enough to burn a brain to charcoal if one doesn't keep their priorities simple.
_________________________
SNAP!

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#313114 - 03/08/08 11:53 PM Re: It's all about results. [Re: fire_vixen]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
 Quote:
"Now if you wanted someone you could not see or write or speak to at a distance to do something for you, then if would be harder for you because in our culture we are regularly told that telepathy is not real by authority figures. To oppose that kind of authority and overcome that kind of peer pressure is certainly not easy."

Are you suggesting that authority and peer pressure are the only obstacles to being good at telepathy and other things outside of common view of reality?


I've found that anything that distracts your thoughts from the object(s) of your Greater magic will muddle the results. I assume this is why Anton LaVey taught that it be practiced with ceremony in an enclosed space dedicated to the sole purpose of the magic.

Similarly, this can be seen with Remote Viewing, as the viewer will deprive their senses as much as possible and set aside up to an hour or two for clearing the mind before viewing.

I think it all comes from the same place. Intense concentration is required and any outside pressures and ideologies must be cleared before proceeding.
_________________________
SNAP!

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#313133 - 03/09/08 04:51 AM Re: One possible answer concerning "Greater Magic". [Re: TheNaturalForce]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
 Originally Posted By: TheNaturalForce
 Quote:
It's like playing poker with the ultimate pokerface, make sure no-one sees through your system.


Sometimes the poker face just doesn't work because everyone can see your hand. ;\) So this is where ultra covert manipulation with seemingly infinite nuance is required. It can be enough to burn a brain to charcoal if one doesn't keep their priorities simple.


A good player doesn't reveal anything. ;\)
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||

The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||



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