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#313525 - 03/10/08 11:05 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Lexifer]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Lexifer


Out of all the butt kicking my parents did to us lol, I don’t ever remember being sprayed with a freaking power washer!!



I have no real idea how child services organizations worked in the 1960’s; but, by what I read in the news, if there were as many cameras then as now, I may well have been raised by someone else. I am glad I was not. Regardless of how unprepared my folks were I turned out the best I could. It’s good when you can learn from the mistakes of others.
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#313548 - 03/10/08 12:32 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Why not show some compassion for the child who soiled herself?

We can easily determine that the pressure washer treatment was overkill but chances are the kid didn't pee themselves because they thought it was funny.

The loveless troglodyte should be bitch slapped with her own ovaries.
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#313593 - 03/10/08 03:42 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: RandomStranger]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
[quote=RandomStranger]

Why not show some compassion for the child who soiled herself?

quote]

Because that would be responsible, and would require being less selfish then your children.

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#313737 - 03/11/08 09:58 AM A retraction and apology. [Re: Giovanni]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.

It seems that a previous post by myself has been taken in a light that I had not intended at the time of writing it.

Removal was appropriate considering the content. I had not taken a particular point of view into account before rattling it off my keyboard.

My line of questioning was rhetorical in nature and in effect thought it would have inspired some discussion on a different scale than has been brought to my attention. My Public Apologies to those concerned.

That which I post is also a reflection upon the Church of Satan even though I am not an official representative, the media will take a different view of that because, well the media are assholes and "we" are the bad-guys after all.

Again.

My Sincerest Apologies.

Without mincing words and attempting to be clever I'll simply state the obvious.

a) Thanks to youtube, everyone knows who this woman is. Perhaps some justice can come from that, even though I don't give it a great probability of happening.

b) How long will it be until "reproductive rights" are truly questioned and the privilege, yes.. privilege, in this overpopulated planet, is truly treated as such? Not something engaged in idly and allowed to happen "accidentally" to people undeserving.

c) When and where will eugenics start to be taken seriously as a subject for actual improvement of the human race? Not in the perverted Third Reich inbreeding program sense. But in the sense of couples making disciplined choices with superior genetic and medical screenings to produce healthier, smarter children. The current Barrel-Full-of-Monkey's method doesn't seem to be working out too well.

At any rate. I hope this clarifies my PERSONAL stance.
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#313803 - 03/11/08 02:57 PM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: Felstorm]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Felstorm,
I must ask you where you get your data that eugenics shows “actual improvement of the human race”? As far as I know of there has never been a group that dedicated this philosophy or belief to practice and show that there was actual benefits that improved the human race. Eugenics COULD possibly show improvement, but it is not 100% that it is going to, nor do we have the proof that it will.

To me eugenics doesn’t seem very Satanic, I mean the catch phrase of “not like most” would have no meaning amongst genetically breaded creatures that sooner or later, thru eugenics, would all be the same. I understand that you don’t mean the same idea of Nazi eugenics, but that is most likely the final outcome of eugenics. I mean think about where the end of eugenics will bring you. First you “get rid” of the big differences among the human animal, one of the obvious areas people wish to address is the difference in intelligence among the human animal. So you either bread out or genetically remove this problem. You move on to the next area, lets say its health. On to the next area, oh but wait were do we stop this process? By what morally or ethically pure committee do we leave this task with? By what standards will they hold what is improvement and what is not and where will they know when to stop the cleansing of the human animal? Is this more like cosmetic surgery, just fix a few problems and then were done, or would the final outcome be nothing more then creating a creature that is almost completely identical because “eugenics proved to work so far we might as well keep seeing what else we can get rid of.”

It also doesn’t seem very Satanic as it worries about the future of the human race as a whole, rather than the individual Satanist. I was under the impression that Satanist are out for themselves and don’t really care about the whole of humanity.

Then again I could be completely misunderstanding the potential eugenics has for Satanist as this is an area that just doesn’t seem worth time and trouble in my eyes.

I also must ask why you think that just because two parents are what you deem as superior in either genetics or health or intelligence that the child will fall right in line and follow in the parent’s footsteps. It brings to mind the idea of nature vs. nurture. I personally believe it is both situations the genetics and the encounters of the individual that makes the individual who they are. In the case of the child of the superiors, he/she may be more inclined traits and talents of the parents but that doesn’t mean the child will be superior as well. Recessive genes and mutations will still happen and throw a wrench in the works.

These are just some of my thoughts on eugenics.

Tim

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#313808 - 03/11/08 03:15 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
 Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster

As far as taking children away from people for such things…I know firsthand that foster care is likely to be worse. The number of foster homes cannot keep up with the need, particularly if the state insists on removing children as quickly as they do. The reason is understandable. If the child later ends up in bad shape, or worse, all fingers point to child protection services.


Oh, I know. I know. I hesitated before I even wrote it. Foster care, like most everything else that is created with good intentions, has become, quite possibly, the worse of two evils. I suppose I just wanted to impress my belief that certain people just should not have the privelege of the responsibility of another's life in their hands.
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#313809 - 03/11/08 03:16 PM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
***The irony of me coming to Fel's defense is probably lost on only a few***

 Quote:
I must ask you where you get your data that eugenics shows “actual improvement of the human race”? As far as I know of there has never been a group that dedicated this philosophy or belief to practice and show that there was actual benefits that improved the human race. Eugenics COULD possibly show improvement, but it is not 100% that it is going to, nor do we have the proof that it will.


I think we are all somewhat colored by what Eugenics meant to Mengele and the Nazis. The word is so closely related to failed and brutal policies that we're tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater (illegal everywhere, but pressure washing, hmmmmm???)

But we are already starting to use Eugenics. When two potential parents pay big bucks for genetic testing, and base their decisions on what the results of those tests say--that is Eugenics. As far as improving? Well, if two parents with recessive cystic fibrosis genes opt not to breed, there is one less child suffering. I'd call that an improvement. Multiply that by dozens of other illnesses we're capable of testing for and you've got bundles of improvement.

I think the rest of your post also hails back to old school scare tactics, currently employed by the Catholic Church to prevent parents from making informed choices about breeding. I respect the concern, but the benefit of eradicating illness without actually harming or killing existing people sounds pretty nifty to me.

Y~
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#314029 - 03/12/08 09:21 AM Eugenics. [Re: aa_nerut]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.

Given a choice, as a parent, would you willingly subject your future child to possibly horrible and chronic illnesses if you could simply prevent it for pennies?

Would you?

I would. Even if that meant conception with a turkey baster.

Chronic debilitating genetic illnesses could be thinned down and weeded out with proper screening and application of modern genetic science. This isn't about making supermen. This is about providing quality of life.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I'm pretty sure that the net benefit from screening the DNA you are to pass on to the next generation outweighs any largely superstitious argument I've ever heard in the negative.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#314037 - 03/12/08 10:06 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: Ygraine]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Magistra Ygraine,
I can agree with you that eugenics carries with it some unsightly baggage, and this may be most peoples impressions of the subject, I’m sure it is with me. But the point I was getting at is at what level should the individual Satanist care or actively participate in such a practice. Again is it the position of Satanist or Satanism to care about reshaping the human race? From what I gathered from the post by Felstorm that I was responding to, it sounded as though he would wish to see eugenics refashion the entire future of the human animal. I could be wrong in my interpretation of what he wrote, but as far as I can see it, eugenics, in a Satanic point of view, would only be concerned with the Satanists child/ren alone, not the human race as a whole.

If this process or practice would escape the individuals making informed choices and was placed in the hands of a board, or panel or government agency, the possibility of eugenics turning into something monstrous or simply out of the control of individuals is present simply because of the human element. I am not that optimistic about humans making the best decisions for everyone else. Yes sometimes things start out with good intentions but all it takes is for a person or a group of people to corrupt the original intention for their own ideas on how this process should be run, what should be eliminated, who?

Again it doesn’t seem to me that eugenics to improve the human race is a Satanic idea, simply because I am not aware of Satanism being about the human race, but rather about the individual within the human race. Satanism is not about the whole but the individual. As far as individuals wishing to create a better child, it may be a step in the right direction but again, the nature/nurture argument might be looked at as well. Just because the genes may be predisposed to stronger, healthier, smarter, etc. traits doesn’t mean that the individual will turn out the way you wish. There are more factors at hand then just “good genes”.

I think this falls back to responsibility for the responsible. Obviously LaVey, when writing this statement down, realize that the humans don’t always take responsibility for their actions. In the eyes of eugenics, I assume that people believe that just by breading and genetic manipulation that the child of such a experiments will automatically be better off, not assuming that responsibility for the up bringing of the child will still need to meet a certain standard. What is the point of a genetically altered child if it is still left in the hands of someone that cannot take the responsibility to raise the child properly? I would assume that the outcome would be the same as the “accident child” or the non-eugenics child.

If you are going to take responsibility for your life and the life you create than no problem, but I don’t see how eugenics will fix the problem of people who don’t wish to take responsibility for their actions.

Also I may be over generalizing or simplifying by using the term human race. As you pointed out “As far as improving? Well, if two parents with recessive cystic fibrosis genes opt not to breed, there is one less child suffering. I'd call that an improvement. Multiply that by dozens of other illnesses we're capable of testing for and you've got bundles of improvement.” But who’s to say that we all don’t have some form of “negative” recessive gene?

Thank you for your reply.
Tim


Edited by aa_nerut (03/12/08 10:08 AM)

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#314042 - 03/12/08 10:29 AM Re: Eugenics. [Re: Felstorm]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
As a parent, I do always want the best for my child. He is here, not a product of eugenics, so can I apply him to such a topic or discussion, no. And it would not be worth the time to “what if” him into the subject as that doesn’t address the reality of the situation. So that is all I will say about that.

Your defense for eugenics seems to be “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” but what does this have to do with the original post? Your reply was off of a video about someone disciplining her child. It had nothing to do with “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”, so why would that even be brought up? Yes if we can cure these “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” I would believe that human life as a whole would be better. I, however, do not have any such illnesses. So do I care about eugenics? No. Do I care about curing debilitating illnesses, only the ones that may affect me thru contraction. If my loved ones had predisposed illnesses I can only hope there is a cure as I cannot go back in time and eugenics them.

But I must ask you why you are changing your angle of eugenics from the obvious, “this woman was stupid and if eugenics was in effect she would have been bread out”, to “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”?

I will have to also stick with my argument that genes alone don’t make for a smarter person.

As far as your statement, “I'm pretty sure that the net benefit from screening the DNA you are to pass on to the next generation outweighs any largely superstitious argument I've ever heard in the negative.” You may be correct, you may not be, but honestly why should this concern you as a Satanist?

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#314055 - 03/12/08 10:53 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
The concept of eugenics helping the "human race" is an afterthought.

The use of eugenics to allow my mate and I to conceive a "superkid," should we ever decide to do so, is VERY Satanic... at least it is to me.

There are many ideas that benefit individuals that will also benefit society at large.

Whether they do or do not is of little consequence to me, so long as I benefit personally.
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#314059 - 03/12/08 11:03 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Anton LaVey often spoke positively of "eugenics" in his essays. It almost always means, parents taking responsibility for their reproductive choices: choosing mates that will produce healthy and advantaged children, while refraining from choices that will result in children that are burdensome on society.

It rarely means state interference in private choices. It's up to the individual Satanist's discretion to decide how seriously to take his suggestions eg. that parents should be licensed. The Doktor was a maestro of "ha ha only serious" type humor that makes you stop and think.


Edited by reprobate (03/12/08 11:05 AM)
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#314069 - 03/12/08 11:43 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
All Satanists are human.

Not all humans are Satanists.

The same arguments you use on eugenics can be made about your drinking water, your garbage, your food, and your medicine. All of those are planned, engineered, and produce by thousands of other people who have no clue you exist, yet with proper planning, good motivation (profit), and strong competition, you can produce a good product.
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#314070 - 03/12/08 11:49 AM Re: Eugenics. [Re: aa_nerut]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Originally Posted By: aa_nerut
As a parent, I do always want the best for my child.
Established. Thanks.

 Quote:
He is here, not a product of eugenics, so can I apply him to such a topic or discussion, no.


Simply saying you are a parent was enough.

But I understand you.

 Quote:
Your defense for eugenics seems to be “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” but what does this have to do with the original post?


In my original post I stuck my foot in my mouth and I had to make some amends for my said "corner-painting". I do that from time to time. Doing my best to make this the last.

However what got you to comment was when I made my retraction and made a statement as to my position on the topic in general without any rhetorical questioning open to misinterpretation.

This is, or was, part of that.

 Quote:
Your reply was off of a video about someone disciplining her child. It had nothing to do with “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”, so why would that even be brought up? Yes if we can cure these “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” I would believe that human life as a whole would be better. I, however, do not have any such illnesses. So do I care about eugenics? No.


Then why bring it up? Why engage me in a discussion of it? Except perhaps to attempt to box me into some kind of racist pigeon hole you've got lined up.

Look past the swastika. M'kay?

 Quote:
Do I care about curing debilitating illnesses, only the ones that may affect me thru contraction. If my loved ones had predisposed illnesses I can only hope there is a cure as I cannot go back in time and eugenics them.


So your answer is no. If you had a cheap means of determining if your child got hereditary diseases, physical, mental, or otherwise, you would not exercise that option. Thank you.

Actually that's not really an "if". Most people that live in the US actually DO have access to reasonably affordable screening. It is only going to get cheaper because it's in the selfish interests of insurance companies to eliminate liabilities. In fact, you'll probably be subjected to compulsory DNA examination if you want life or health insurance.

 Quote:
But I must ask you why you are changing your angle of eugenics from the obvious, “this woman was stupid and if eugenics was in effect she would have been bread out”, to “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”?


Again this subject of eugenics, is simply a subset of a few listed items that I had posted to clarify my general position on a said topic. But you are using it as some kind of weapon to achieve a rather transparent goal.

 Quote:
I will have to also stick with my argument that genes alone don’t make for a smarter person.


I disagree in part. And in fact The Bell Curve would disagree, in part, with that statement as well.

While genetics alone does not make one intelligent by itself, it does have solid backing that you get a good portion of that capability handed to you by your genetics. The rest is work you have to do yourself. Obviously, people with hereditary Downs Syndrome get handed a bad hand and are likely to never progress past a teenagers level of intelligence no matter how many Mensa puzzles you make them do.

I think that intelligence also has a bearing on the whole base psychology of violence and human on human depredation. The statistics also seem to point to the same thing.

So I ask. Just how smart do you think that woman was power washing her kid? Or even better, the two people that stood by and did nothing?

 Quote:
As far as your statement, “I'm pretty sure that the net benefit from screening the DNA you are to pass on to the next generation outweighs any largely superstitious argument I've ever heard in the negative.” You may be correct, you may not be, but honestly why should this concern you as a Satanist?


It does concern me. It will concern me, and it will concern my future family. Unlike the rest of the teeming masses of stupid humans I will plan ahead to provide the best than I can for my offspring.

It's certainly your choice to deny yourself this, but I don't see it as particularly prudent. Your loss, my gain.

Well my kid's gain actually... I may not be able to give him the non-existant "Satanist" gene, but I can do my best to give him the best of my "nature".

My family has a history of diabetes, and I'm damn sure I'm not going to be giving that to my kids. I've seen it kill my grandmother, and I'm watching it slowly destroy my mother. Perhaps they'll be able to simply repair it after the fact in the future, but the net result is the same. It'll be weeded out at the core. DNA. Feasibly, at least for the next two generations, DNA testing and sorting is what can be done. I don't see nanotechnology treatments becoming truly widespread and affordable for at least another 50 years. Simply because most people in this world love the attention that death and misery gives them, so it will by it's very nature be resisted.

That is, until they realize that if you get it you can eat more Little Debbies and watch The Idiot Box for another 50 years and look great while doing nothing!

And if they ever figure out a way to cure lung cancer with it, it'll really knock the wind out of those pretentious anti-smokers.

So I hope that answers your questions. I won't pursue this topic here further as it is driving away, as you have pointed out, from the general topic of this thread. Feel free to create a new one, or resurrect the old thread posted not too long ago and beat it to death.


Edited by Felstorm (03/12/08 12:01 PM)
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#314079 - 03/12/08 12:29 PM Re: Eugenics. [Re: Felstorm]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I would also add that intelligence comes in different flavors. Genes could very well predispose you to certain intelligence but the brain also does grow when you exercise it with brain teasers.

You can be well versed in history and be horrible at math. You can be a whiz at physics and be a dunce in the arts. You can be great with numbers and schematics but be a poor speller and read slowly. There are people who study their asses off to have a great understanding of the material while there are other people who just review the material and just understand it completely.

And of course there are your street smarts and survival skills that I would label as intelligence that many highly educated and scientifically brilliant people lack.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but I find it funny when someone points out someone's intelligence relative to someone else's when one is a well versed home taught history buffer and another is a biologist conducting research on DNA. I would consider them both intelligent, but their strengths lie in different areas.

Not accusing you of such, just food for thought.

Sorry for the distraction, carry on.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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