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#312854 - 03/08/08 01:05 AM What is wrong with people?
Giovanni Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 238
Loc: Fishers,IN
I figured I would post this in this forum instead of downstairs, because everyone should see this!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23518487

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#312855 - 03/08/08 01:07 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Nothing is wrong with people. Original sin is a myth. Now this woman however, has a serious problem. A problem which could be solved by sterilization and a labor camp.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#312858 - 03/08/08 01:19 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
Sometimes, it is unfortunate that hell does not exist.

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#312867 - 03/08/08 03:03 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Colonel Kurtz]
Rory_Rocketpants Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 1795
Loc: unknown
You're tellin' me you never got a good hosin' at the car wash as a kid?!?

Damn, yous guys are missin' out.

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#312920 - 03/08/08 10:07 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Rory_Rocketpants]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
It's loads of fun! When your 9 years old, and know what the fuck is happening. Not so much when your 2, maybe 3 years old.


Edited by VonDeth (03/08/08 10:08 AM)
Edit Reason: Can't type.

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#312963 - 03/08/08 01:40 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Pressure washers are no joke. Those things can strip off harden grease on engines.

It depends on the selection of what the PSI will be. But still, a common house hose would do just fine for washing a child. Hell, even a bathtub would work.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#313134 - 03/09/08 04:56 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Cleanliness is next to godliness.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#313149 - 03/09/08 07:51 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
She's 5 months pregnant?!?! If she can't deal with a toddler having an accident, how is she going to manage a newborn?!?!?
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#313156 - 03/09/08 08:05 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: AurEum]
L0ki Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
Perhaps she won't be able to...

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#313161 - 03/09/08 08:21 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: L0ki]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
I watched this video 2 days ago. It was all over our news here. I forget what state that happened in. The little girl was 2 1/2. The reason she was pulled out of the car and hosed down was because she was being sassy. The mother saw the video on TV, she called the police, and they are now charging her with abuse, or whatever they are calling the charges. The little one did not drop anything or make a mess in the car or on herself, she was being sassy. The mother went nuts. My only hope and prayer is the mother ends up in jail for a little while. Let the lonely jailbirds chew on her for awhile.

SW9
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#313164 - 03/09/08 08:30 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: MissMina1556]
Risen08 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 197
 Originally Posted By: Shadow Weaver 9
My only hope and prayer is the mother ends up in jail for a little while. Let the lonely jailbirds chew on her for awhile.

SW9


I don't hope or pray.....I destroy.

(not in this case though, I really don't have enough personal intrest)
_________________________
"With heart and hand I pledge you while I load my gun again, you will never be forgotten or the enemy forgiven, my good comrade..."
(The Satanic Promise, by Anton Szandor LaVey)
It's time to kick some ass!


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#313166 - 03/09/08 08:45 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Risen08]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
You are correct Risen08, I should change my terminology, the mother WILL have much unhappiness forever. Hmm.....I will have to think a little more clearly on this one.

Thank you.

SW9
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#313167 - 03/09/08 08:53 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
I, too, saw this on the news a few days ago and I am completely disgusted. That poor little girl needs to be removed from that woman's custody and plans made now for the infant on the way. What really pisses me off is that the authorities are "considering" whether or not to charge her with abuse! Are they fucking joking?! She needs to be charged, convicted, and sterilized all in the same day.
_________________________
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Hear Adult Fairy Tales, Short Stories, Poetry, and more! coopdevil
Twilight Tales with Muse only on Radio Free Satan!!
(Currently on hiatus while I attend to grad school, but I have every intention of bringing the show back when the time is right!)


The holy trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

"Does anyone ever realize life while they are living it? Every, every minute?"
- Emily, Our Town, by Thornton Wilder


"Life's like a ballgame. You gotta take a swing at whatever comes along before you wake up and find it's the ninth inning." ~Vera (Ann Savage) in Detour





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#313184 - 03/09/08 10:25 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Muse]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Dear Sarah,

The mother is BEING CHARGED. She, herself, called the police when she saw herself on TV. What a miserable woman. I wish I had been there. For if I had been there, there would not be any charges, probably a funeral. And, it would NOT be the funeral of that little child. She is only 2 1/2 years old! 2 1/2! I am dumbfounded. But, I know this kind of abuse goes on behind closed doors. That stupid mother lost her mind and let the whole world see. Now we can help that mother to her destiny.

SW9
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#313186 - 03/09/08 10:34 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: MissMina1556]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
It is very unfortunate that people like this can breed (seems to come quite easy to them), while there are many level headed people out on this earth who cannot have a child of their own to nurture and love.

Cemeteries are filled with lost infants and children. Orphanages are filled with children that not many seem to want.

Folks, you have to have a license to run and operate a hot dog stand but it seems that any moron can have a child. \:\(
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#313198 - 03/09/08 11:06 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: AurEum]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
She's 5 months pregnant?!?! If she can't deal with a toddler having an accident, how is she going to manage a newborn?!?!?


With a pressure washer?
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#313222 - 03/09/08 01:38 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: MissMina1556]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
Dear Shadow Weaver:

"Child welfare officials were notified of the incident. Police plan to meet with them later Friday and decide whether to pursue child endangerment charges against the mother.

“We don’t know yet. We are going to roundtable that this morning,” "

That above quote is from the article. Perhaps there is some sort of update you are referring to, but the information that was provided in this forum stated (twice, actually, if you re-read the first paragraph) that the decision had not yet been made. There seems to be more confusion on your part regarding the mother's questioning. Perhaps you should re-read the link and/or provide us with the new source of information in which you are referring. Thank you.

One other thing that bothers me, you say: "For if I had been there, there would not be any charges, probably a funeral." Really? Just what is your understanding of Satanism and illegal activity?

Sincerely,
Sarah

P.S. PM me if you wish to continue this discussion, as I am sure others are not interested in reading private messages in their thread.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/twilighttales
Hear Adult Fairy Tales, Short Stories, Poetry, and more! coopdevil
Twilight Tales with Muse only on Radio Free Satan!!
(Currently on hiatus while I attend to grad school, but I have every intention of bringing the show back when the time is right!)


The holy trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

"Does anyone ever realize life while they are living it? Every, every minute?"
- Emily, Our Town, by Thornton Wilder


"Life's like a ballgame. You gotta take a swing at whatever comes along before you wake up and find it's the ninth inning." ~Vera (Ann Savage) in Detour





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#313229 - 03/09/08 02:10 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2196
Whatever happened to the good old days of getting your ass whipped with toy race car tracks?

I guess this is now "Child Discipline XP".

_________________________
$$$ Get Rich or Die Tryin' $$$

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#313247 - 03/09/08 03:41 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
I bet she used welfare money to operate the car wash.
_________________________




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#313250 - 03/09/08 03:52 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Old_Pig]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Ah-hehehe, sir you are the very Devil himself. \:D
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#313263 - 03/09/08 04:31 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Muse]
L0ki Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
 Quote:
One other thing that bothers me, you say: "For if I had been there, there would not be any charges, probably a funeral." Really? Just what is your understanding of Satanism and illegal activity?


I can only assume that SW9 would have killed her in self-defense...

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#313462 - 03/10/08 05:55 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: MissMina1556]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
 Quote:
Let the lonely jailbirds chew on her for awhile.




Well said!
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www.vampiretemple.com
Are You One Of Us?

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#313466 - 03/10/08 06:49 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Callier]
Giovanni Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 238
Loc: Fishers,IN
Well if this is XP, I can't wait for the Vista version.

\:\)

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#313467 - 03/10/08 06:50 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: RandomStranger]
Giovanni Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 238
Loc: Fishers,IN
No, probably child support money.

Now wouldn't that be a kick in the head?!?!

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#313468 - 03/10/08 07:00 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Morganti Offline


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 48
"What is wrong with people"

When I read about things like this my answer is simply:

"I seriously don't fucking know!"

Maybe because humans are the most intelligent animal on Earth, with our intelligence comes more complex thought. As a result when something becomes more complex, more things can go wrong with it.

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#313469 - 03/10/08 07:10 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Morganti]
Giovanni Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 238
Loc: Fishers,IN
Completely agreed, but my point of this question was.

You have a hand, you have a mouth. Yell, spank, etc... Do not spray with a high powered pressure washer. I mean, go to a car wash, wash your car and then nip yourself with that like I have done countless times. I am not 2 and it fucking hurt like hell, and not to mention, most here in Indiana have a switch you turn and soap, hot wax, etc... come pouring out. Who is to say that she did not in fact wax her child?

My point was basically, that day it was the hose, next it could be a slam to the ground, and then run over with the actual CAR. I would not put it past this mother. People in this day and age I guess think that since they live in a random place and are parked somewhere no one can see they can do whatever they want. Thanks to this car wash having cameras, she turned herself in on one level or another, and will probably get less time, especially if she gets "help".

She will probably rot in her cell, because most public defenders are not very good.

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#313479 - 03/10/08 08:23 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Most people are unwilling to control their emotions. Anyone who has raised a child knows that they will stretch your reserves. Resolving not to discipline a child in public will 1) alleviate the possibility of seeing it on the news; and, more importantly, 2) give you time to cool off, think things over and come up with an appropriate plan of action. It’s amazing what crosses your mind, which gives me even less sympathy for abusive parents. We all get angry…and we deal with it like adults…at least some of the time. This seems extreme. I am not sure what action should be taken. Any discussion on how to deal with things like potty training is best left for a downstairs discussion.

As far as taking children away from people for such things…I know firsthand that foster care is likely to be worse. The number of foster homes cannot keep up with the need, particularly if the state insists on removing children as quickly as they do. The reason is understandable. If the child later ends up in bad shape, or worse, all fingers point to child protection services.
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#313494 - 03/10/08 09:39 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Lexifer Offline


Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 53
I agree Roho.

Out of all the butt kicking my parents did to us lol, I don’t ever remember being sprayed with a freaking power washer!! That is pretty hard core. Although I'm all for strict discipline because talking it out with a 3 year old isn’t going to resolve crap. If I had not got my butt kicked by my dad, I wouldn't be who I am, and I'm stronger for it.

That said there is a time and place for it, and loosing your cool happens, you just have to be in control before you take action. Now I’m not implying you have to smack them around like you are a wrestler in a cage match. Using Common cents helps too

I also agree that foster care is not an ideal place for children to grow.

It is a sad state of affairs to see children suffer due to incompetence, negligence, and plain all out stupidity.

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#313513 - 03/10/08 10:30 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Morganti]
spook show Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 356
Loc: under your bed
 Quote:
Maybe because humans are the most intelligent animal on Earth


Well, the jury is still out on that.
_________________________
"The best thing about any day is its gentle lapse into night, the dark mantle whence all secrets evolve."

~Anton Szandor LaVey

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#313517 - 03/10/08 10:39 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
While I do condemn the woman's likely thoughtlessness:

 Quote:
"It’s a unique form of punishment that I don’t think anyone has ever seen," Commander Matt Irwin of the Orange County Sheriff’s Department said


He's never seen someone hosed, and doesn't think anyone's ever seen someone hosed?

Hell, I've been hosed (yes, pretty high pressure - fire hose - ah, fond memories of Helles Barracks, Catterick).

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#313525 - 03/10/08 11:05 AM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Lexifer]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Lexifer


Out of all the butt kicking my parents did to us lol, I don’t ever remember being sprayed with a freaking power washer!!



I have no real idea how child services organizations worked in the 1960’s; but, by what I read in the news, if there were as many cameras then as now, I may well have been raised by someone else. I am glad I was not. Regardless of how unprepared my folks were I turned out the best I could. It’s good when you can learn from the mistakes of others.
_________________________
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http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#313548 - 03/10/08 12:32 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Giovanni]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Why not show some compassion for the child who soiled herself?

We can easily determine that the pressure washer treatment was overkill but chances are the kid didn't pee themselves because they thought it was funny.

The loveless troglodyte should be bitch slapped with her own ovaries.
_________________________




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#313593 - 03/10/08 03:42 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: RandomStranger]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
[quote=RandomStranger]

Why not show some compassion for the child who soiled herself?

quote]

Because that would be responsible, and would require being less selfish then your children.

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#313737 - 03/11/08 09:58 AM A retraction and apology. [Re: Giovanni]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.

It seems that a previous post by myself has been taken in a light that I had not intended at the time of writing it.

Removal was appropriate considering the content. I had not taken a particular point of view into account before rattling it off my keyboard.

My line of questioning was rhetorical in nature and in effect thought it would have inspired some discussion on a different scale than has been brought to my attention. My Public Apologies to those concerned.

That which I post is also a reflection upon the Church of Satan even though I am not an official representative, the media will take a different view of that because, well the media are assholes and "we" are the bad-guys after all.

Again.

My Sincerest Apologies.

Without mincing words and attempting to be clever I'll simply state the obvious.

a) Thanks to youtube, everyone knows who this woman is. Perhaps some justice can come from that, even though I don't give it a great probability of happening.

b) How long will it be until "reproductive rights" are truly questioned and the privilege, yes.. privilege, in this overpopulated planet, is truly treated as such? Not something engaged in idly and allowed to happen "accidentally" to people undeserving.

c) When and where will eugenics start to be taken seriously as a subject for actual improvement of the human race? Not in the perverted Third Reich inbreeding program sense. But in the sense of couples making disciplined choices with superior genetic and medical screenings to produce healthier, smarter children. The current Barrel-Full-of-Monkey's method doesn't seem to be working out too well.

At any rate. I hope this clarifies my PERSONAL stance.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#313803 - 03/11/08 02:57 PM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: Felstorm]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Felstorm,
I must ask you where you get your data that eugenics shows “actual improvement of the human race”? As far as I know of there has never been a group that dedicated this philosophy or belief to practice and show that there was actual benefits that improved the human race. Eugenics COULD possibly show improvement, but it is not 100% that it is going to, nor do we have the proof that it will.

To me eugenics doesn’t seem very Satanic, I mean the catch phrase of “not like most” would have no meaning amongst genetically breaded creatures that sooner or later, thru eugenics, would all be the same. I understand that you don’t mean the same idea of Nazi eugenics, but that is most likely the final outcome of eugenics. I mean think about where the end of eugenics will bring you. First you “get rid” of the big differences among the human animal, one of the obvious areas people wish to address is the difference in intelligence among the human animal. So you either bread out or genetically remove this problem. You move on to the next area, lets say its health. On to the next area, oh but wait were do we stop this process? By what morally or ethically pure committee do we leave this task with? By what standards will they hold what is improvement and what is not and where will they know when to stop the cleansing of the human animal? Is this more like cosmetic surgery, just fix a few problems and then were done, or would the final outcome be nothing more then creating a creature that is almost completely identical because “eugenics proved to work so far we might as well keep seeing what else we can get rid of.”

It also doesn’t seem very Satanic as it worries about the future of the human race as a whole, rather than the individual Satanist. I was under the impression that Satanist are out for themselves and don’t really care about the whole of humanity.

Then again I could be completely misunderstanding the potential eugenics has for Satanist as this is an area that just doesn’t seem worth time and trouble in my eyes.

I also must ask why you think that just because two parents are what you deem as superior in either genetics or health or intelligence that the child will fall right in line and follow in the parent’s footsteps. It brings to mind the idea of nature vs. nurture. I personally believe it is both situations the genetics and the encounters of the individual that makes the individual who they are. In the case of the child of the superiors, he/she may be more inclined traits and talents of the parents but that doesn’t mean the child will be superior as well. Recessive genes and mutations will still happen and throw a wrench in the works.

These are just some of my thoughts on eugenics.

Tim

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#313808 - 03/11/08 03:15 PM Re: What is wrong with people? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
 Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster

As far as taking children away from people for such things…I know firsthand that foster care is likely to be worse. The number of foster homes cannot keep up with the need, particularly if the state insists on removing children as quickly as they do. The reason is understandable. If the child later ends up in bad shape, or worse, all fingers point to child protection services.


Oh, I know. I know. I hesitated before I even wrote it. Foster care, like most everything else that is created with good intentions, has become, quite possibly, the worse of two evils. I suppose I just wanted to impress my belief that certain people just should not have the privelege of the responsibility of another's life in their hands.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/twilighttales
Hear Adult Fairy Tales, Short Stories, Poetry, and more! coopdevil
Twilight Tales with Muse only on Radio Free Satan!!
(Currently on hiatus while I attend to grad school, but I have every intention of bringing the show back when the time is right!)


The holy trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

"Does anyone ever realize life while they are living it? Every, every minute?"
- Emily, Our Town, by Thornton Wilder


"Life's like a ballgame. You gotta take a swing at whatever comes along before you wake up and find it's the ninth inning." ~Vera (Ann Savage) in Detour





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#313809 - 03/11/08 03:16 PM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
***The irony of me coming to Fel's defense is probably lost on only a few***

 Quote:
I must ask you where you get your data that eugenics shows “actual improvement of the human race”? As far as I know of there has never been a group that dedicated this philosophy or belief to practice and show that there was actual benefits that improved the human race. Eugenics COULD possibly show improvement, but it is not 100% that it is going to, nor do we have the proof that it will.


I think we are all somewhat colored by what Eugenics meant to Mengele and the Nazis. The word is so closely related to failed and brutal policies that we're tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater (illegal everywhere, but pressure washing, hmmmmm???)

But we are already starting to use Eugenics. When two potential parents pay big bucks for genetic testing, and base their decisions on what the results of those tests say--that is Eugenics. As far as improving? Well, if two parents with recessive cystic fibrosis genes opt not to breed, there is one less child suffering. I'd call that an improvement. Multiply that by dozens of other illnesses we're capable of testing for and you've got bundles of improvement.

I think the rest of your post also hails back to old school scare tactics, currently employed by the Catholic Church to prevent parents from making informed choices about breeding. I respect the concern, but the benefit of eradicating illness without actually harming or killing existing people sounds pretty nifty to me.

Y~
_________________________
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Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#314029 - 03/12/08 09:21 AM Eugenics. [Re: aa_nerut]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.

Given a choice, as a parent, would you willingly subject your future child to possibly horrible and chronic illnesses if you could simply prevent it for pennies?

Would you?

I would. Even if that meant conception with a turkey baster.

Chronic debilitating genetic illnesses could be thinned down and weeded out with proper screening and application of modern genetic science. This isn't about making supermen. This is about providing quality of life.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I'm pretty sure that the net benefit from screening the DNA you are to pass on to the next generation outweighs any largely superstitious argument I've ever heard in the negative.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#314037 - 03/12/08 10:06 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: Ygraine]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Magistra Ygraine,
I can agree with you that eugenics carries with it some unsightly baggage, and this may be most peoples impressions of the subject, I’m sure it is with me. But the point I was getting at is at what level should the individual Satanist care or actively participate in such a practice. Again is it the position of Satanist or Satanism to care about reshaping the human race? From what I gathered from the post by Felstorm that I was responding to, it sounded as though he would wish to see eugenics refashion the entire future of the human animal. I could be wrong in my interpretation of what he wrote, but as far as I can see it, eugenics, in a Satanic point of view, would only be concerned with the Satanists child/ren alone, not the human race as a whole.

If this process or practice would escape the individuals making informed choices and was placed in the hands of a board, or panel or government agency, the possibility of eugenics turning into something monstrous or simply out of the control of individuals is present simply because of the human element. I am not that optimistic about humans making the best decisions for everyone else. Yes sometimes things start out with good intentions but all it takes is for a person or a group of people to corrupt the original intention for their own ideas on how this process should be run, what should be eliminated, who?

Again it doesn’t seem to me that eugenics to improve the human race is a Satanic idea, simply because I am not aware of Satanism being about the human race, but rather about the individual within the human race. Satanism is not about the whole but the individual. As far as individuals wishing to create a better child, it may be a step in the right direction but again, the nature/nurture argument might be looked at as well. Just because the genes may be predisposed to stronger, healthier, smarter, etc. traits doesn’t mean that the individual will turn out the way you wish. There are more factors at hand then just “good genes”.

I think this falls back to responsibility for the responsible. Obviously LaVey, when writing this statement down, realize that the humans don’t always take responsibility for their actions. In the eyes of eugenics, I assume that people believe that just by breading and genetic manipulation that the child of such a experiments will automatically be better off, not assuming that responsibility for the up bringing of the child will still need to meet a certain standard. What is the point of a genetically altered child if it is still left in the hands of someone that cannot take the responsibility to raise the child properly? I would assume that the outcome would be the same as the “accident child” or the non-eugenics child.

If you are going to take responsibility for your life and the life you create than no problem, but I don’t see how eugenics will fix the problem of people who don’t wish to take responsibility for their actions.

Also I may be over generalizing or simplifying by using the term human race. As you pointed out “As far as improving? Well, if two parents with recessive cystic fibrosis genes opt not to breed, there is one less child suffering. I'd call that an improvement. Multiply that by dozens of other illnesses we're capable of testing for and you've got bundles of improvement.” But who’s to say that we all don’t have some form of “negative” recessive gene?

Thank you for your reply.
Tim


Edited by aa_nerut (03/12/08 10:08 AM)

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#314042 - 03/12/08 10:29 AM Re: Eugenics. [Re: Felstorm]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
As a parent, I do always want the best for my child. He is here, not a product of eugenics, so can I apply him to such a topic or discussion, no. And it would not be worth the time to “what if” him into the subject as that doesn’t address the reality of the situation. So that is all I will say about that.

Your defense for eugenics seems to be “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” but what does this have to do with the original post? Your reply was off of a video about someone disciplining her child. It had nothing to do with “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”, so why would that even be brought up? Yes if we can cure these “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” I would believe that human life as a whole would be better. I, however, do not have any such illnesses. So do I care about eugenics? No. Do I care about curing debilitating illnesses, only the ones that may affect me thru contraction. If my loved ones had predisposed illnesses I can only hope there is a cure as I cannot go back in time and eugenics them.

But I must ask you why you are changing your angle of eugenics from the obvious, “this woman was stupid and if eugenics was in effect she would have been bread out”, to “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”?

I will have to also stick with my argument that genes alone don’t make for a smarter person.

As far as your statement, “I'm pretty sure that the net benefit from screening the DNA you are to pass on to the next generation outweighs any largely superstitious argument I've ever heard in the negative.” You may be correct, you may not be, but honestly why should this concern you as a Satanist?

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#314055 - 03/12/08 10:53 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
The concept of eugenics helping the "human race" is an afterthought.

The use of eugenics to allow my mate and I to conceive a "superkid," should we ever decide to do so, is VERY Satanic... at least it is to me.

There are many ideas that benefit individuals that will also benefit society at large.

Whether they do or do not is of little consequence to me, so long as I benefit personally.
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#314059 - 03/12/08 11:03 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Anton LaVey often spoke positively of "eugenics" in his essays. It almost always means, parents taking responsibility for their reproductive choices: choosing mates that will produce healthy and advantaged children, while refraining from choices that will result in children that are burdensome on society.

It rarely means state interference in private choices. It's up to the individual Satanist's discretion to decide how seriously to take his suggestions eg. that parents should be licensed. The Doktor was a maestro of "ha ha only serious" type humor that makes you stop and think.


Edited by reprobate (03/12/08 11:05 AM)
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#314069 - 03/12/08 11:43 AM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
All Satanists are human.

Not all humans are Satanists.

The same arguments you use on eugenics can be made about your drinking water, your garbage, your food, and your medicine. All of those are planned, engineered, and produce by thousands of other people who have no clue you exist, yet with proper planning, good motivation (profit), and strong competition, you can produce a good product.
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#314070 - 03/12/08 11:49 AM Re: Eugenics. [Re: aa_nerut]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Originally Posted By: aa_nerut
As a parent, I do always want the best for my child.
Established. Thanks.

 Quote:
He is here, not a product of eugenics, so can I apply him to such a topic or discussion, no.


Simply saying you are a parent was enough.

But I understand you.

 Quote:
Your defense for eugenics seems to be “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” but what does this have to do with the original post?


In my original post I stuck my foot in my mouth and I had to make some amends for my said "corner-painting". I do that from time to time. Doing my best to make this the last.

However what got you to comment was when I made my retraction and made a statement as to my position on the topic in general without any rhetorical questioning open to misinterpretation.

This is, or was, part of that.

 Quote:
Your reply was off of a video about someone disciplining her child. It had nothing to do with “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”, so why would that even be brought up? Yes if we can cure these “Chronic debilitating genetic illness” I would believe that human life as a whole would be better. I, however, do not have any such illnesses. So do I care about eugenics? No.


Then why bring it up? Why engage me in a discussion of it? Except perhaps to attempt to box me into some kind of racist pigeon hole you've got lined up.

Look past the swastika. M'kay?

 Quote:
Do I care about curing debilitating illnesses, only the ones that may affect me thru contraction. If my loved ones had predisposed illnesses I can only hope there is a cure as I cannot go back in time and eugenics them.


So your answer is no. If you had a cheap means of determining if your child got hereditary diseases, physical, mental, or otherwise, you would not exercise that option. Thank you.

Actually that's not really an "if". Most people that live in the US actually DO have access to reasonably affordable screening. It is only going to get cheaper because it's in the selfish interests of insurance companies to eliminate liabilities. In fact, you'll probably be subjected to compulsory DNA examination if you want life or health insurance.

 Quote:
But I must ask you why you are changing your angle of eugenics from the obvious, “this woman was stupid and if eugenics was in effect she would have been bread out”, to “Chronic debilitating genetic illness”?


Again this subject of eugenics, is simply a subset of a few listed items that I had posted to clarify my general position on a said topic. But you are using it as some kind of weapon to achieve a rather transparent goal.

 Quote:
I will have to also stick with my argument that genes alone don’t make for a smarter person.


I disagree in part. And in fact The Bell Curve would disagree, in part, with that statement as well.

While genetics alone does not make one intelligent by itself, it does have solid backing that you get a good portion of that capability handed to you by your genetics. The rest is work you have to do yourself. Obviously, people with hereditary Downs Syndrome get handed a bad hand and are likely to never progress past a teenagers level of intelligence no matter how many Mensa puzzles you make them do.

I think that intelligence also has a bearing on the whole base psychology of violence and human on human depredation. The statistics also seem to point to the same thing.

So I ask. Just how smart do you think that woman was power washing her kid? Or even better, the two people that stood by and did nothing?

 Quote:
As far as your statement, “I'm pretty sure that the net benefit from screening the DNA you are to pass on to the next generation outweighs any largely superstitious argument I've ever heard in the negative.” You may be correct, you may not be, but honestly why should this concern you as a Satanist?


It does concern me. It will concern me, and it will concern my future family. Unlike the rest of the teeming masses of stupid humans I will plan ahead to provide the best than I can for my offspring.

It's certainly your choice to deny yourself this, but I don't see it as particularly prudent. Your loss, my gain.

Well my kid's gain actually... I may not be able to give him the non-existant "Satanist" gene, but I can do my best to give him the best of my "nature".

My family has a history of diabetes, and I'm damn sure I'm not going to be giving that to my kids. I've seen it kill my grandmother, and I'm watching it slowly destroy my mother. Perhaps they'll be able to simply repair it after the fact in the future, but the net result is the same. It'll be weeded out at the core. DNA. Feasibly, at least for the next two generations, DNA testing and sorting is what can be done. I don't see nanotechnology treatments becoming truly widespread and affordable for at least another 50 years. Simply because most people in this world love the attention that death and misery gives them, so it will by it's very nature be resisted.

That is, until they realize that if you get it you can eat more Little Debbies and watch The Idiot Box for another 50 years and look great while doing nothing!

And if they ever figure out a way to cure lung cancer with it, it'll really knock the wind out of those pretentious anti-smokers.

So I hope that answers your questions. I won't pursue this topic here further as it is driving away, as you have pointed out, from the general topic of this thread. Feel free to create a new one, or resurrect the old thread posted not too long ago and beat it to death.


Edited by Felstorm (03/12/08 12:01 PM)
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#314079 - 03/12/08 12:29 PM Re: Eugenics. [Re: Felstorm]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I would also add that intelligence comes in different flavors. Genes could very well predispose you to certain intelligence but the brain also does grow when you exercise it with brain teasers.

You can be well versed in history and be horrible at math. You can be a whiz at physics and be a dunce in the arts. You can be great with numbers and schematics but be a poor speller and read slowly. There are people who study their asses off to have a great understanding of the material while there are other people who just review the material and just understand it completely.

And of course there are your street smarts and survival skills that I would label as intelligence that many highly educated and scientifically brilliant people lack.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but I find it funny when someone points out someone's intelligence relative to someone else's when one is a well versed home taught history buffer and another is a biologist conducting research on DNA. I would consider them both intelligent, but their strengths lie in different areas.

Not accusing you of such, just food for thought.

Sorry for the distraction, carry on.
_________________________
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"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#314082 - 03/12/08 12:35 PM Re: Eugenics. [Re: Felstorm]
aa_nerut Offline


Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 20
Loc: Hollywood, FL
Felstorm,
The reason I brought it up was simply a reply to your statement was all and to take a position on one side in a conversation so that I may hear other points of view, points of view that I may not see or know at the present time. It is a way of learning new things thru dialog, conversation and debate. I am not trying to you box you into a racist pigeonhole, that is your assumption. You think I am using this as “some kind of weapon to achieve a rather transparent goal.” Again your assumption, what would this transparent goal be? As I have stated now and in fact in these other posts I may be misunderstanding a point of view.

If you are taking these statements and questions of mine as attacks or attempts to box you in, that has something to do with you, not me. I am simply trying to understand how eugenics can be considered Satanic as well as how it affecting the human race as a whole is Satanic. Which I might add yourself and others have given examples. So thanks everyone.

And an answer to the following “So your answer is no. If you had a cheap means of determining if your child got hereditary diseases, physical, mental, or otherwise, you would not exercise that option. Thank you.” I never once said my answer was no. In fact I said, “If my loved ones had predisposed illnesses I can only hope there is a cure as I cannot go back in time and eugenics them.” Meaning that my loved ones are already alive, here and now in the present world. To use the method you are suggesting would mean to go back in time prior to their conceptions and either opt them not be born or genetically alter them if the means was available.

As far as how smart the woman was, I have no answer and to make any answer without knowing her is assumption. I’m sure everyone has gotten to the point where they snapped, the difference lies in responsible actions or at least taking responsibility for your actions rather than limiting it to a case of intelligence. She may be very smart and just snapped. Who really knows, just because you are smart doesn’t mean you have the where-with-all or knowledge or experience to deal with social situations or child up bringing. Then again she could just be dumb.

But I do see we agree on a few things, there should be more nanotech research and this topic is dead. We have said what we wish to say on the subject.

Thanks again.
Tim

P.S. And very good point about the intelligence Discipline.

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#314091 - 03/12/08 01:15 PM Re: Eugenics. [Re: aa_nerut]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
 Quote:
I’m sure everyone has gotten to the point where they snapped, the difference lies in responsible actions or at least taking responsibility for your actions rather than limiting it to a case of intelligence.


I've snapped a few times in my lifetime - in those cases the most I did was raise my voice or choose to abruptly walk away from a situation. In all my dealings with children I've yet to hit one or, indeed, hose any of them down.
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#314094 - 03/12/08 01:41 PM Re: A retraction and apology. [Re: aa_nerut]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: aa_nerut
But the point I was getting at is at what level should the individual Satanist care or actively participate in such a practice.



May I make a suggestion?

Accept for a few obvious exceptions, the level an individual Satanist cares about, or participates in anything is up to the individual. That is not just a catchy phrase…it is true.

If something is important to you, go for it. No need to find out what other Satanists feel about it…even if you are the only one who seems to get it.
It goes the other way. If every Satanist felt a particular way about an issue, except for you…big deal. It’s not important to you.

Incidentally, from what I have read, my views are not far removed from yours. Not that you should care. ;\)
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#314105 - 03/12/08 02:53 PM Isn't it all too slow anyway? [Re: ]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12536
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
As we have delivery systems (virus trucks) that can introduce new genetic material to change the genetic makeup of your living body now (and actually have been able to do this for many years), the focus on making changes to future generations seems rather unimportant by comparison, doesn't it?

Add to that the issue of switching genes off or on through epigenetics and the picture seems to focus ever more completely on the plasticity of altering your own genetic "situation" in the here and now.

Personal biotransformation - it is not just for the future.

Or so I have been told. ;\)

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#314106 - 03/12/08 03:01 PM Re: Isn't it all too slow anyway? [Re: Nemo]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I think that answers to aa_nerut's question...If Satanism is about the individual, why all the talk about eugenics.

What you just described puts the responsibility in the hands of the individual, not the ancestors.
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#314118 - 03/12/08 04:18 PM Re: Isn't it all too slow anyway? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Ravenhael,

Thank you for the post. You have given to me, more information so that I may advance my studies. This has been a most wonderful read for me. Again, thank you.
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