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#315799 - 03/18/08 10:46 PM Re: A simple suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
You mean Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into The Forces of History?
According to it's reviews it certainly seems like a book with a lot to give. Thank you. I will not want to miss that book.
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"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#315802 - 03/18/08 10:51 PM Re: A simple suggestion. [Re: Zardex]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
I'll second Magister Nemo's excellent recommendation.

The Lucifer Principle is one you'll want to read, keep, and re-read.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#315807 - 03/18/08 10:56 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
 Originally Posted By: Mr. Obsidian
I would argue that every action, no matter how superficially "selfless" is in reality selfish: predicated on personal interest or motivation.


This is so in the level of philosophy because obviously if we decide to act in a certain way it cannot be without a motivation on our part.

However I am inviting notice on the nature of altruistic drives as a misfiring of our social evolution that is not working properly in our current world and I am in no way advocating that altruistic behavior would be wise, however there are altruistic drives just like there are sexual drives and they drive us to desire actions that are not always physically beneficial to us.

This is however a minor detail and altruism as an ideology is wise to be regarded with careful criticism.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#315809 - 03/18/08 11:05 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Zardex]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Have you looked into Reciprocal Altruism; Robert Trivers; Game Theory; W.D. Hamilton; The Selfish Gene?

Those topics, of a decidedly more biological bent, might be of interest to you.

_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#315812 - 03/18/08 11:19 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Yes I am familiar with those but they are but a few evolutionary mechanisms among many more and more yet to be discovered.

The Handicap Principle by Amotz Zahavi is also significant and the form that all these theories take in the light of Richard Dawkin's memetics taken further by Daniel C. Dennett's applications in his theories of the mind and role of memetics and cultural evolution as just another crane in what he calls the cranes of evolution that include but are not limited to the very formation of RNA molecules.

Cognitive neurology and psychology also contribute much in to the understanding of the complex structures that give birth to our minds.

Obviously no physical drive can truly cause altruistic behavior as it is a drive that we thus wish to follow through, but it is clear that there are drives that on occasion misfire and do not produce the desired beneficial conclusion we would wish to rationally take if we were aware of what is best for us.

Our brains are on many fields hard wired to deceive us against our better understanding... was it not so then we would have no need for philosophy or science for we would be perfect in our ignorance blindly following our instincts.


Edited by Zardex (03/18/08 11:26 PM)
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#315860 - 03/19/08 02:25 AM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Zardex]
JayLucif Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/02
Posts: 1705
Loc: Helheim
 Originally Posted By: Zardex

Our brains are on many fields hard wired to deceive us against our better understanding... was it not so then we would have no need for philosophy or science for we would be perfect in our ignorance blindly following our instincts.



I tend to think this might just be the opposite of healthy well adjusted people. I don't think the brain can deceive anyone, people and their "MIND Issues" do all the deceiving really necessary.

Though I am taking some time to decide if I want to go into detail why, I have a detailed piece written up. My ideas may spark off an unintended debate which does not turn out very well upstairs. I am going to give my ideas time to stew for awhile.


Edited by JayLucif (03/19/08 03:46 PM)
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#315908 - 03/19/08 10:03 AM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Zardex]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
Is Satanism in conflict with my kind of view on altruism or would the following reflect satanic ethics?


No, but I wouldn't necessarily label what you're talking about as altruism per se.
You seem to have a keen grasp on the issue: the distinction between altruism as the "righteous" motivation of the pious herd versus kindness or positive social change based on rational self interest.

 Quote:
Do truly satanic(LaVeyan) people have to view all altruism always as hypocrisy


Satanists are individuals and thus each Satanist is likely to draw her own conclusions on the matter. Much will depend on the specific definition of "altruism" that is being used.

 Quote:
or can it in some degree be viewed as an extension of methods for selfish search for our own enjoyment through indulging in the pleasures that are produced by our evolutionary social instincts?


I'll hazard a guess that most Satanists would tend to agree with this perspective or some similitude of it.


 Quote:
Can it be a truly selfish desire to exorcise self control and to develop our individual social behaviour to better serve us for our enjoyment in the long run even if it at times goes against our natural instincts?


Yes, certainly.

We like to say "indulgence, NOT compulsion."

I'd think that a Satanist worth his salt would, in many cases, subjugate his instinct to reason.
Revenge is an example which springs to mind.

Instinct and reason, ego and responsibility; each have their place in the scheme of self-preservation and Self-efficacy.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#316003 - 03/19/08 04:29 PM Re: A simple suggestion. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
MagisterParadise Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 3248
Loc: Burlington, VT
 Originally Posted By: Mr. Obsidian
I'll second Magister Nemo's excellent recommendation.

The Lucifer Principle is one you'll want to read, keep, and re-read.


And I'll third it. Regardless of its less than stellar ending, it goes into much detail concerning human motivation and how not so removed we are from the rest of the animals.
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#316005 - 03/19/08 04:32 PM Re: A simple suggestion. [Re: MagisterParadise]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I'll 4th it.
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#316007 - 03/19/08 04:32 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Thank you obsidian. I am glad to see that the responses to such difficult subjects are very much responded with open adaptive and critical minds, it all is a part of true desire to understand the truth and not just desire to stand correct.

I rather stand corrected that wrongly believe myself correct, and every discussion I see here adds to my perception that this is common among satanists. I have come across insight here that has allowed me to adapt and improve myself and that is blissful. It certainly increases my interest to Satanic literature.

The subject of human nature and social behavior is vast and something I am happy to receive good advice on how to improve in it's understanding and this thread has been very helpful. Thank you all for having shared this interest here on this thread and having aided me whether intentionally or unintentionally.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#316008 - 03/19/08 04:43 PM Re: A simple suggestion. [Re: MagisterParadise]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
 Originally Posted By: MagisterParadise
it goes into much detail concerning human motivation and how not so removed we are from the rest of the animals.

Thank you, that further adds to my interest on the book. It also reminds me of Dr. Daniel C. Dennett's short book "Kinds of Minds" which is available on audio book free on the internet.(Legally free on Google videos for instance)

It gives good philosophical perspective of evolutionary cognitive neurology on how our brains and the animal brains are both different and similar and how our brains are really not that wholesome but rather a collection of bits and pieces evolved at different times and working with one another. Many things our brains do are the very same things many animal brains do.

It may be a bit long winded at times however as it is written in a format that can be understood by a barmaid.
(I'm not saying barmaids are stupid rather referring to the famous saying by Albert Einstein "It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid.")


Edited by Zardex (03/19/08 04:47 PM)
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"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#316016 - 03/19/08 05:10 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
 Originally Posted By: Mr. Obsidian
Can you provide one example of true selflessness?


Of cause as we have concluded there is no such thing as true selflessness but about the altruistic drives that exist in human behavior the most commonly used example is the stranger in an airport in a foreign country who needs to do something in a hurry and asks you to watch his/her bag while you're sitting there and waiting for something.

Dr. Philip Zimbardo has done experiments somewhere in the 80's on similar behavior and noticed most people will react with commitment to watch the bag from simple request they have no time to respond to and will take action to prevent theft that Zimbardo's assistants organize.

[ Oh the golden time in psychology when it was legal to experiment on unwitting population.]


Edited by Zardex (03/19/08 05:13 PM)
Edit Reason: Oh the golden time
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#316023 - 03/19/08 05:39 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Zardex]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Watching a stranger’s bag can be self-rewarding because of the feeling of commitment and a sense of moral justice. The feelings you gain from such an act are worth it, hence it is still a selfish act.

Perhaps you do it out of principle, or as a decent citizen, or because of your religion. All three of those examples leads to some kind of self-promotion and gratification. It is selfish.
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#316033 - 03/19/08 06:17 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Zardex]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
A new study from Harvard ( I know...) discusses how nice guys finish first.
This touches a bit on what we have been discussing here.

It Pays to Play Nice
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#316036 - 03/19/08 06:24 PM Re: Philosophical questions on Satanism, altruism and ethics. [Re: Zardex]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
You are most welcome. It has been a fun conversation.



From your apparent interest in human nature, I believe you would really enjoy reading the Satanic canon, particularly The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Witch (It's not just for women), The Satanic Scriptures, and Essays in Satanism.

Even if you come to the conclusion that Satanism does not accurately reflect your nature, I guarantee you will benefit from reading these tomes.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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