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#328762 - 05/19/08 11:51 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: C.F. Kane]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Exsanguinate!!!


I replied with the link to this book before I read your link. I'll leave my link in case one of our links are not read. wink
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#328763 - 05/19/08 11:53 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up?

Yes. Of course from a Lesser Magic persepective, whether or not this is ultimately counter-productive for you is another story.

Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
What the hell is masculinity anyway? [...] Being a stereotyped male? Herd conformity?

Nope. coopdevil
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#328786 - 05/19/08 01:53 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I have no idea how the idea of masculinity has changed or continues to change. That is a bit abstract for me. I am sure you would have more to say on that subject.

I do have my views on what it is to be masculine, or a personal code of conduct. I also think that there is often a tendency to follow one extreme or another. There is a trend to apologize for being masculine, often tinged with over sensitivity and a need to emote. On the other hand, there is macho posturing.

My personal views on masculinity stem from attitudes that seem to have been innate since childhood, with attitudes I assume are cultural. I feel an urge to protect women, children and defenseless animals. I feel bigger is better, in a physical sense. If a man is of small stature, there are ways to project an image of size and virility. I enjoy feeling and appearing strong, and feel a sense of shame when it comes to weakness. I try to find a balance in standing up when I need to, and turning a deaf ear when that seems wise. I rarely ask for help. I prize my ability to get things done. Even when I am feeling unsure, I like to appear decisive. I enjoy opening doors for ladies, and almost always open the car door for my wife. I feel shame when I lose control of my emotions, but I am not ashamed to cry when I feel moved. I think that masculinity is evidenced by intellectual, as well as physical prowess. I have no time for men who are afraid of being touched. I like feeling in charge.
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#328795 - 05/19/08 02:38 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
Modern masculinity is not. wink As stated here.

Masculinity: those who have it, have it. Those who have to work at it or ask, have no idea.

The same applies to being feminine.

It is popular to say that words no longer mean what they do, that thy are to be interpreted in any suitable fashion, that their meaning is subjective. No dice. No amount of revisionist pc creampufery will change the archetypes of what is masculine and feminine.

I refer you to Dr. LaVey's works for further study.
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#328798 - 05/19/08 02:59 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
The definition of Masculinity may be a subjective one.

In Webster's dictionary Masculinity is defined as "1 male; of men or boys 2 suitable to or having qualities regarded as typial of men; strong, vigorous"

"Typical" is the operative word here.

I can be sensitive, and cry over SPCA commercials and even King Kong-yes King King (he was misunderstood). Some may look at that as a weakness and in our society be associated with feminist qualities and feminist qualities in men are seen as a weakness.

However, I am by far a milksop. I do tend to have feminine qualities but I do have many masculine qualities as well. I can cry over an injured child animal and empathize with someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one. On the other hand I will not hesitate to set boundaries with other people, and recently had to confront someone about trying to bully my wife around.

Some men may think that because I do have feminine qualities and embrace them would mean that I am NOT masculine, I feel that it makes me MORE masculine since I am balanced. Some men I know in an effort to project masculinity will suppress any evidence that they are sensitive thus leaving them weak in other areas.

I have also met many so called "men" who think that are masculine and "manly" but have their women support them financially, do the house chores as well as take care of their children. I think that those kind of men are the least masculine since they are looking for a surrogate Mommy not a wife and are too scared to face masculinity.

The book "Androphilia" is a good one, I am reading it now and is recommended.

Personally I feel that it helps to fully understand masculinity if you can also embrace femininity but not allowing either one to overpower the other.

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#328813 - 05/19/08 03:55 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: DickSteele]
D. Macabre Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
Originally Posted By: DickSteele
Personally I feel that it helps to fully understand masculinity if you can also embrace femininity but not allowing either one to overpower the other.


Agreed. The line is drawn and as long as it's not crossed then you remain balanced. Now, if you start being sensitive and caring in stilettos and a mini skirt, that's a different story. eek
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#328819 - 05/19/08 04:29 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
RaSc Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
I don't wear makeup and I agree with your assessment. However, I would say that feminine makeup styles on a man is different from say, makeup used in movies and theater. Rugged masculinity can be accentuated in this way.

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#328824 - 05/19/08 05:10 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: RaSc]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
Stage makeup is a professional matter not particularly relevant to masculinity. This is mostly because it's not apparent that makeup is being worn, or at least it's not meant to be.

However, if someone wears stage makeup offstage then they're being vain, and again, vanity is not really a masculine trait.
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#328830 - 05/19/08 05:59 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
RaSc Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
Perhaps there exists a variable of degrees for the use of makeup in masculinity. You make a valid argument that vanity is not really a masculine trait. I agree, but I think there could be a little more to it.

Could the subtle use of makeup work outside the professional realm in personal situations? For example, a clear complexion is much more appealing than say glaring imperfections. In this case vanity would be replaced by pride and a bit of lesser-magic. In this case, the use of makeup could convince others by hiding otherwise glaring imperfections that could play negatively on others' perceptions. It could, in a sense, be a little nudge of sub-conscious persuasion.

Of course, a caveat: less is more. I admit that even the perception of makeup use on a man would indeed be counter-productive in many societies. A successful deception would be more compelling than the alternative although the chance of success is slim.

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#328872 - 05/19/08 09:29 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
However, if someone wears stage makeup offstage then they're being vain, and again, vanity is not really a masculine trait.

That is the only part of your argument that I disagree with in this thread.

What we are really talking about here with the "men wearing make-up thing" is culturally acceptable forms of adornment.

Men, in this culture, don't wear face make-up, but they do wear suits, work out to get nice muscles, cut and style their hair, wear cologne, tattoo and pierce their bodies, buy nice cars, and accumulate wealth and items that indicate wealth. These things are not that different from face make-up; they are all meant to attract mates.

It's not the make-up itself, it's that make-up in this culture is typically feminine, and therefore not masculine. Men are just as vain, but adorn themselves differently.

Yes?

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#328874 - 05/19/08 09:41 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Well put!

Quote:
This is more natural to a woman. Such things as makeup, heels, and erotic dance are visually stimulating and natural to a woman's body and features.

I may need to borrow you, I would enjoy having a ringer in class. smile
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#328875 - 05/19/08 09:45 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: D. Macabre]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I think this statement that men are not supposed to wear make up is herd conformity. "You aren't supposed to say this, you aren't supposed to wear that." Blah blah blah blah, it's not like I'm hurting anyone so why am I not supposed to do it? Because someone said so? Because someone thinks I look silly?

Well, no, no, and hell no! I think I look good, I like to look good and cover up any blemishes or tone variations with foundation even if I don't wear eyeliner or eyeshadow. Which for work and things related to survival I will only wear foundation. No one ever noticed or said anything, most men don't have a clue what it even is. So in my honest opinion and view on masculinity as you describe it would be that it is stupid. Just because it's not average does not mean you are not supposed to do it. I need a better argument than that to buy into such statements. Good thing about this forums secular inhabitants is I won't have to hear the "Because God blah blah" side of the issue. :P

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#328876 - 05/19/08 09:54 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Quote:
However, if someone wears stage makeup offstage then they're being vain, and again, vanity is not really a masculine trait.


I agree that men wearing make up in every day life is not especially masculine. However, I know plenty of heterosexual men who are vain. They don't wear make up, but they are well-groomed work out. I appreciate it when a man goes out of his way to look, feel, and smell nice. However, it's a problem if a man takes longer to get ready for a night out than I do. Maybe this male population in my life is unusual, or maybe more men would consider themselves vain if they were honest and not concerned with social stigmas.
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#328877 - 05/19/08 10:06 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I think the men you refer to are metrosexual like me. A lot of stigma is that it means you are somehow homosexual in nature or have such traits. Not all metrosexual men talk in a funny accent through the nose or make eccentric feminine gestures. That's a stupid stereotype that also fails to describe all homosexuals accurately. It only serves to perpetuate stupid misconceptions.

Not that the eccentric gestures or nose tone is bad. However, I just don't find it to be my thing or attractive to me. I work out and keep active, I listen to music some would say is hardcore and man music(whatever that is). I also like to listen to sappy sad stuff every once in a while which would be considered feminine. It surprised my recent girlfriend I knew lyrics to a Modana song.

In the end I suppose what would separate me from masculine men is that I groom and shave more than they do. I also wear make up to appear nice and presentable based on the social situation. So if that means I'm not masculine then fuck it, I don't really care. It's stupid to assume that I am somehow gay in nature or have homosexual tendencies just because I like to look nice. That would be like saying a gay man has straight tendencies because he act's really "masculine". The book about masculinity sounds like a load of dogmatic cultural bull shit to me. What do I know? I wear make up. lol



Edited by FalloutGod (05/19/08 10:12 PM)

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#328880 - 05/19/08 10:33 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Anytime hun wink
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