No. They are certainly not metrosexual.

I fail to see the connection you are attempting to make between "hardcore" music and masculinity. I know plenty of masculine men who have eclectic musical tastes: R&B, jazz, bluegrass, classical, rock, and more. You seem to be buying into a misconception, masculine does not mean unkempt and hairy. Also, you might want to read the book before jumping to conclusions, especially because it was recommended by several Satanists (who tend to avoid dogmatic cultural bullshit).

Men and women do have the right to wear whatever they feel is pleasing to them but this isn't the topic of discussion.

A man that wears make-up for personal taste doesn't necessarily have to be homosexual but it is clearly obvious that this subtracts from his masculinity.

If a woman on the other hand wears men's clothing, regardless of sexual preference, you don't think that subtracts from her femininity?

No, HERD mentality would be me saying that because society is against it, you should not do it. The fact of the matter is, make up is not marketed for men, therefore I do not think they should wear it. If you want to be a cross dressing make up wearing fruit cake, then have fun. I just don't think it's masculine, that is the topic is it not?

I'm surprised that by now no one has mentioned this whole mascara-man/metrosexual bit as being a little herd conformist in and of itself.

I mean, if one looks at a good deal of pop-culture and advertising one finds a lot of douche bags in mascara and uber-tight Ed Hardy t-shirts shaving and Axe-ing themselves whilst blathering on about their feelings.

Now, if that makes one happy and provides the desired effect, well, I say "Hail Satan!" to that. However, I won't wear make-up, not even on Halloween (Werewolf garb is more my thing,) and if you want to see my body you will have to take my clothes off!

My masculinity is in my pants for the most part, a birth right, if you will.

What diminishes this remains to be determined, but I would offer this:

Maybe its Maybeline?

Depends how you define vanity. That one is tricky.

There's prom queen "who is the fairest of them all" vanity, which is always emasculating, and then there's vanity seen in a broader sense, as self-love, be it based on appearance or other qualities.

I only note this because I thought about writing an essay about the difference between vanity and self respect and ended up stuck on the word vanity because it means so many things.

Thanks.

Masculinity really all reduces down to strength--physical or otherwise.

In women, strength is optional, because women who are not strong are a commodity. Weak males are not a commodity; they are expendable. This is a fundamental part of the human experience, and shifts in popular values cannot correct this. As long as men value women who are weak willed, or, perhaps more accurately and less negatively, are willing to appear to submit to get what they want, masculinity and femininity will continue to mean what they mean. The more I think about this the more convinced I am that this gender confusion is a symptom of a dying culture and that nature will self-correct. In an unforgiving way.

To address both you and Zaftig:

Being heterosexual and being masculine are not the same. One can be plenty heterosexual but not masculine, and even be effeminate. One is an instinctive mental state, the other is a choice of where we like to bed. They are as unrelated as our deep voice is to our preference for white meat or dark.

Being well-groomed is also fine, but it isn't part of masculinity. Not to say it's a bad thing, obviously even I shave, cut my hair (or shave my head as the case may be), wash my clothes, etc. But this isn't a manly pursuit, it's a requirement of social norms and a requirement of modern women.

The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.

You want to know what a man would look like if he had his way? Look at Vikings, pirates, and mountain men. Men would be far less vain if it weren't for the nagging of women. What little vanity men do have in an all-male environment is more the greed of possession than it is aesthetics. Notice also that for uncivilized men the value of the object is more important than whether it "matches." They just want to move up a social rung.

No doubt you do appreciate it when men make an effort to look nice. But make no mistake, if you didn't have the one thing men are enslaved to we'd laugh at the very idea of it.

I meant vanity as attention to appearance, not self-absorbed egotism. Most men are vain in the latter sense. Few men are seriously vain in the former sense.

>> The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.<<

I love my shaving ritual. I love my silver English Shaving Co' set.

And I am very particular about my hair.

I love clothes and fashion and enjoy shopping for them and creatively putting ensembles together.

I never sit around like a slob. I might not "put the ensembles together" if I am sitting in the house but I get freshened up and dressed properly every day, even if I am not leaving the house.

And it's not because I think it's how women want me to look. But the fact that women ALWAYS mention how well I dress is a compliment that I like.

I also like the fact that women think it sets me apart from the typical male you just described.

And for those that don't know - no, I am not one of the jolly boys.

That sentence alone convinced me to buy Androphilia.

You seem to be having a knee-jerk reaction to the opinions of several individuals.

Lighten up.

Just because the herd disagrees with it, doesn't mean we immediately should agree with it too.


Most would see vanity of any sort, lest in terms of appearance, inherently 'immasculine' in the physical sense of the word.

But, to paraphrase Pacino (or, lest, his character 'John Milton'), that sin is my favorite.

Yet by your own implication it is more to do with the comfort of ritual and consistency than appearances. It is true, men do enjoy a stable routine, and some also enjoy being shaved due to the convenience of low maintanence. But in virtually every case, it really has more to do with personal comfort or laziness than anything else. At least, I am convinced of it.

Exactly Reverend!

I say any "man" that wears make up, paints his fucking finger nails, or lives with an feminist idealogy of Modern Masculinity(spare no dog and pony show boys) is a pitiful shell of a man.

The better question is:

Does the fact that something is not stereotypically masculine matter?

Satanism encompasses the entire spectrum. Homosexuality for example is plainly enough not the biological "default" for the species, yet it finds no argument in Satanism nor does it strip you of your worth.

I'm blunt about what is masculine, yet I highly doubt many here are or want to be the extreme of masculinity. However, the fact that very many want so badly to be the epitome of masculinity that they will see if the rules cannot be changed to suit their case proves how strong the urge really is.

I would agree that most men (albeit, not necessarily, "a man") would probably be unkempt as the latter two.

The first, unless I am mistaken, were notable for pouring practically bleach on their head to wash their hair.

Unless you meant these Vikings.