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#328881 - 05/19/08 10:46 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
No. They are certainly not metrosexual.

I fail to see the connection you are attempting to make between "hardcore" music and masculinity. I know plenty of masculine men who have eclectic musical tastes: R&B, jazz, bluegrass, classical, rock, and more. You seem to be buying into a misconception, masculine does not mean unkempt and hairy. Also, you might want to read the book before jumping to conclusions, especially because it was recommended by several Satanists (who tend to avoid dogmatic cultural bullshit).
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#328886 - 05/19/08 11:10 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2203
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I think this statement that men are not supposed to wear make up is herd conformity. "You aren't supposed to say this, you aren't supposed to wear that."


Men and women do have the right to wear whatever they feel is pleasing to them but this isn't the topic of discussion.

A man that wears make-up for personal taste doesn't necessarily have to be homosexual but it is clearly obvious that this subtracts from his masculinity.

If a woman on the other hand wears men's clothing, regardless of sexual preference, you don't think that subtracts from her femininity?
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#328889 - 05/19/08 11:20 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
D. Macabre Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I think this statement that men are not supposed to wear make up is herd conformity. "You aren't supposed to say this, you aren't supposed to wear that." Blah blah blah blah, it's not like I'm hurting anyone so why am I not supposed to do it? Because someone said so? Because someone thinks I look silly?

Well, no, no, and hell no! I think I look good, I like to look good and cover up any blemishes or tone variations with foundation even if I don't wear eyeliner or eyeshadow. Which for work and things related to survival I will only wear foundation. No one ever noticed or said anything, most men don't have a clue what it even is. So in my honest opinion and view on masculinity as you describe it would be that it is stupid. Just because it's not average does not mean you are not supposed to do it. I need a better argument than that to buy into such statements. Good thing about this forums secular inhabitants is I won't have to hear the "Because God blah blah" side of the issue. :P



No, HERD mentality would be me saying that because society is against it, you should not do it. The fact of the matter is, make up is not marketed for men, therefore I do not think they should wear it. If you want to be a cross dressing make up wearing fruit cake, then have fun. I just don't think it's masculine, that is the topic is it not?
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Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
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“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

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#328890 - 05/19/08 11:47 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: D. Macabre]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
I'm surprised that by now no one has mentioned this whole mascara-man/metrosexual bit as being a little herd conformist in and of itself.

I mean, if one looks at a good deal of pop-culture and advertising one finds a lot of douche bags in mascara and uber-tight Ed Hardy t-shirts shaving and Axe-ing themselves whilst blathering on about their feelings.

Now, if that makes one happy and provides the desired effect, well, I say "Hail Satan!" to that. However, I won't wear make-up, not even on Halloween (Werewolf garb is more my thing,) and if you want to see my body you will have to take my clothes off! cool

My masculinity is in my pants for the most part, a birth right, if you will.

What diminishes this remains to be determined, but I would offer this:

Maybe its Maybeline? wink
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#328901 - 05/20/08 01:37 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Depends how you define vanity. That one is tricky.

There's prom queen "who is the fairest of them all" vanity, which is always emasculating, and then there's vanity seen in a broader sense, as self-love, be it based on appearance or other qualities.

I only note this because I thought about writing an essay about the difference between vanity and self respect and ended up stuck on the word vanity because it means so many things.

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#328902 - 05/20/08 01:44 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Thanks.

Masculinity really all reduces down to strength--physical or otherwise.

In women, strength is optional, because women who are not strong are a commodity. Weak males are not a commodity; they are expendable. This is a fundamental part of the human experience, and shifts in popular values cannot correct this. As long as men value women who are weak willed, or, perhaps more accurately and less negatively, are willing to appear to submit to get what they want, masculinity and femininity will continue to mean what they mean. The more I think about this the more convinced I am that this gender confusion is a symptom of a dying culture and that nature will self-correct. In an unforgiving way.


Edited by Rev_Malebranche (05/20/08 01:45 AM)

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#328905 - 05/20/08 02:35 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
To address both you and Zaftig:

Being heterosexual and being masculine are not the same. One can be plenty heterosexual but not masculine, and even be effeminate. One is an instinctive mental state, the other is a choice of where we like to bed. They are as unrelated as our deep voice is to our preference for white meat or dark.

Being well-groomed is also fine, but it isn't part of masculinity. Not to say it's a bad thing, obviously even I shave, cut my hair (or shave my head as the case may be), wash my clothes, etc. But this isn't a manly pursuit, it's a requirement of social norms and a requirement of modern women.

The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.

You want to know what a man would look like if he had his way? Look at Vikings, pirates, and mountain men. Men would be far less vain if it weren't for the nagging of women. What little vanity men do have in an all-male environment is more the greed of possession than it is aesthetics. Notice also that for uncivilized men the value of the object is more important than whether it "matches." They just want to move up a social rung.

No doubt you do appreciate it when men make an effort to look nice. But make no mistake, if you didn't have the one thing men are enslaved to we'd laugh at the very idea of it.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328906 - 05/20/08 02:39 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
I meant vanity as attention to appearance, not self-absorbed egotism. Most men are vain in the latter sense. Few men are seriously vain in the former sense.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328907 - 05/20/08 02:50 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10568
Loc: England
>> The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.<<

I love my shaving ritual. I love my silver English Shaving Co' set.

And I am very particular about my hair.

I love clothes and fashion and enjoy shopping for them and creatively putting ensembles together.

I never sit around like a slob. I might not "put the ensembles together" if I am sitting in the house but I get freshened up and dressed properly every day, even if I am not leaving the house.

And it's not because I think it's how women want me to look. But the fact that women ALWAYS mention how well I dress is a compliment that I like.

I also like the fact that women think it sets me apart from the typical male you just described.

And for those that don't know - no, I am not one of the jolly boys.


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#328908 - 05/20/08 02:53 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rev_Malebranche

Masculinity really all reduces down to strength--physical or otherwise.


That sentence alone convinced me to buy Androphilia. coopdevil
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Meine Ehre heißt Macht

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#328911 - 05/20/08 02:56 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You seem to be having a knee-jerk reaction to the opinions of several individuals.

Lighten up.

Just because the herd disagrees with it, doesn't mean we immediately should agree with it too.


Most would see vanity of any sort, lest in terms of appearance, inherently 'immasculine' in the physical sense of the word.

But, to paraphrase Pacino (or, lest, his character 'John Milton'), that sin is my favorite. wink
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#328912 - 05/20/08 02:59 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
Yet by your own implication it is more to do with the comfort of ritual and consistency than appearances. It is true, men do enjoy a stable routine, and some also enjoy being shaved due to the convenience of low maintanence. But in virtually every case, it really has more to do with personal comfort or laziness than anything else. At least, I am convinced of it.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328913 - 05/20/08 03:01 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Danny Mc. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
Quote:
But make no mistake, if you didn't have the one thing men are enslaved to we'd laugh at the very idea of it.


Exactly Reverend!

I say any "man" that wears make up, paints his fucking finger nails, or lives with an feminist idealogy of Modern Masculinity(spare no dog and pony show boys) is a pitiful shell of a man. coopdevil
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"To be born into this world a sentient, self-conscious and reasoning being, surrounded by inexhaustible glories in Nature, which we may comprehend, possess,enjoy; to be able to rise on the wings of a lofty imagination; to be able to get glimpses of the ideally perfect; to apprehend the Divine; it is to the development and enjoyment of these high powers that the young man is invited. How dare he refuse to qualify himself by the most perfect training of all his powers." Lyman J. Gage 1910


"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#328915 - 05/20/08 03:02 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
The better question is:

Does the fact that something is not stereotypically masculine matter?

Satanism encompasses the entire spectrum. Homosexuality for example is plainly enough not the biological "default" for the species, yet it finds no argument in Satanism nor does it strip you of your worth.

I'm blunt about what is masculine, yet I highly doubt many here are or want to be the extreme of masculinity. However, the fact that very many want so badly to be the epitome of masculinity that they will see if the rules cannot be changed to suit their case proves how strong the urge really is.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328916 - 05/20/08 03:03 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII

You want to know what a man would look like if he had his way? Look at Vikings, pirates, and mountain men.


I would agree that most men (albeit, not necessarily, "a man") would probably be unkempt as the latter two.

The first, unless I am mistaken, were notable for pouring practically bleach on their head to wash their hair.

Unless you meant these Vikings. coopdevil
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