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#328917 - 05/20/08 03:09 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Yes, Vikings did practice some innovative hygeine. They also shared a washbowl, which they freely spit into, went extended periods without changing clothes, and shared slave women. Pirates were often dirty and completely uncouth, yet many of them sported elaborate gold jewelry (stolen of course) to make a rapper jealous. So there is an obvious balance there, isn't there? I doubt many men would relish the idea of being totally unwashed and filthy, yet how many of us have shaved a beard merely because a woman wanted it gone? I bet more than will admit to it. wink
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328918 - 05/20/08 03:22 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
>> Yet by your own implication it is more to do with the comfort of ritual and consistency than appearances <<

Nope. I have an image that I like to maintain. How I choose to look is a projection of my identity. My appearance is supremely important to me. But the deciding factor is that in doing so I differentiate myself from the hoi polloi. I don't wear off the peg fashions.

>> it really has more to do with personal comfort or laziness than anything else. <<

I disagree again. It takes effort.

Anyone who is anyone always makes an effort to maintain that something that sets them apart from the masses.

Perceptions change but through history males have always displayed their colours. Just like the animals.

The most beautiful peacocks are the males.

Vikings might have washed their hair in cow shit. But it was because it was perceived as top notch grooming in its day.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328920 - 05/20/08 03:23 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Do you propose that you are a standard example of men, then?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328923 - 05/20/08 03:34 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
Do you propose that you are a standard example of men, then?



As I say, males have always shown off.

Though perceptions change through history. No successful cave man would have been caught dead without yak shit rubbed in his hair.

Personally, I perfer my 70's red leather jacket, skinny fit jeans and vintage ties.

No I am not the standard example. I am one of the peacocks.

The standard example is the lack lustre slob you were describing.

In my opinion, Sir.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328924 - 05/20/08 03:41 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
So my point stands, you just felt like showing a few feathers. wink
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328948 - 05/20/08 07:31 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Based on your post, I don't see how men and women are that different in regard to vanity.

Quote:
Being well-groomed is also fine, but it isn't part of masculinity. Not to say it's a bad thing, obviously even I shave, cut my hair (or shave my head as the case may be), wash my clothes, etc. But this isn't a manly pursuit, it's a requirement of social norms and a requirement of modern women.

How do you think women look when we're staying in with girlfriends? We don't get dolled up all the time. Every year I go camping with the women I work with (at an all female company), everyone is wearing jeans & t-shirts, hair pulled back, and there's not a tube of lipstick in sight.

Quote:
The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.

I hate shaving or waxing, but do it anyway. I don't especially enjoy sitting in the hair salon for hours on end when I could be doing other things. Bathing & clothes go back to social status and attracting a desirable mate. While I do enjoy dressing up and wearing heels, there's a time and place for it. If I'm working at home all day I'm much more likely to wear yoga pants, a tank top, and flip flops. The illusion fades when you get too close.

Do men feel pressure to look athletic or is it vanity? Some of the men I train with are constantly checking their abs or flexing in the mirror, that seems like vanity to me.

I do understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with 100% of it. But I'm a female, so clearly I don't know anything about being a man. Interesting discussion.
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#328957 - 05/20/08 08:11 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Callier]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: Callier
If a woman on the other hand wears men's clothing, regardless of sexual preference, you don't think that subtracts from her femininity?


Funny, I've never had any complaints when I wore a man's dress shirt. Granted, I was wearing nothing else at the time. grin

For me, a man wearing make-up for personal aesthetics does not send a message I'm receptive too. I am all for a sharp dressed man, but excessive primping and preening would really make me question the fella's priorities.
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"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

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#328961 - 05/20/08 08:42 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Shade]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Hm, like Ealiaontoir, I think I may be a bit removed from the topic because I am a woman, but here is my opinion on the vanity subject.

I believe that the innate instinct in the human male is to prove their masculinity with acts rather than with looks. Even in cases where looks would have gotten the girl, it was because the looks promised his ability to take care of business.

I garauntee you in a post-apocalyptic situation, the most popular man is going to be the one who can protect his women, not look pretty.

In The Stand, one of the female characters learned early on that she was pregnant. She mused that liberation and feminism was great in the old world, but now that things were back to being survival of the fittest, she desperately needed a man who could take care of her.

I like it when a man smells good and looks good. It certainly does not detract from his masculinity, but it isn't what makes him attractive to me.

Millions of years of instinct don't just dissapear in a few generations.


Here is an interesting article on one man's opinion of Real Men.
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#328964 - 05/20/08 08:47 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Shade]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Quote:
I am all for a sharp dressed man, but excessive primping and preening would really make me question the fella's priorities.


I love a man's man, it's a fact.

However, I also have an appreciation for men who know how to put themselves together well and has an aesthetic sense that stands apart from the herd (no, that never includes men with make-up, regardless of if it's noticable or not). That being said, if that man spends more time putting together an ensemble than I do, or spends a very notable amount of time discussing his appearance, ect.... well that does nothing but irritate me.

I've found that the most genuinely interesting looking men (in regards to their clothing and general appearance) don't really try too hard at it. It comes rather effortlessly to them, and they never look contrived. That's not easy to come by, but every once in a while, I see it.
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Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

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#328965 - 05/20/08 08:57 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Oh I knew what you meant, I was just pointing out that it is a tricky concept--with a lot of gray areas and nuances. That doesn't mean, mind you, that masculinity is all gray areas and nuances--which is what some people try to do with that discussion.

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#328966 - 05/20/08 09:03 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bruja]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Aye! I agree!

I also suspect some men spend a lot of time perfecting the illusion that they don't spend a lot of time on their appearance. coopdevil
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#328970 - 05/20/08 09:30 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bruja]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
>> I've found that the most genuinely interesting looking men (in regards to their clothing and general appearance) don't really try too hard at it. It comes rather effortlessly to them, and they never look contrived. That's not easy to come by, but every once in a while, I see it. <<

There's always thought (effort?) gone into it. There has to be.

The trick is making it look effortless. as if you've just thrown the clothes together.

Men can look good. But they should never look too polished, you are right.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328972 - 05/20/08 09:42 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Personally I care less about looking athletic. I appreciate having the ability to lift things and beat someone's ass if needed. Function is more interesting than form.

Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.

Much of what women do isas much for themselves and other women as it is for men. A lot of things girls do, men in general just don't notice or care about.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328975 - 05/20/08 10:20 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:
Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.


Those are cultural distinctions, not innate biological ones solely attributed to females.

In some cultures, men wear face paint and tattoos, or adorn themselves with feathers and scars - as much for other men as well as to attract women.

My argument is that this thing called vanity is not a particular masculine or feminine trait, but manifests differently according to different cultural influences.

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#328994 - 05/20/08 11:42 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Vikings bathed more than English men and brushed their hair often. Maybe I just didn't pay attention in history. I don't know, but didn't many vikings have their own combs that they treasured oh so much? Makeup inherently not masculine? Men have worn make up through history and still do in some tribal cultures. Tell them it's not masculine or manlike in nature.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/20/08 11:47 AM)

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