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#329167 - 05/21/08 04:18 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Look at this way, since people seem to be so fond of using fictional examples.

In atypical Americanized anime culture, most heroes and villains are "bishounen" (with a slightly different meaning than the original Japanese word) -- characters with a mix of distinctively feminine features (more pronounced cheek bones, styled hair, clearer skin), and masculine features (more muscular tone, martial arts abilities, high intelligence, strength, et cetera). A good example would be Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII, or even Walter Doenitz from Hellsing -- including when he's an older man.

The very prefix "bi" in the Japanese language means feminine; however, unless you're completely blind, I doubt anyone thought Sephiroth was a girl at first glance. But it would be idiotic to deny that the character has distinctively feminine features.

The characters are not limp wristed jokes (or Twisted Sister :P), but neither are they Harris Ford knockoffs -- despite the fact that I doubt anyone who frequents these forums has ever seen him without a heavy layer of makeup on, himself.

Another example would be your common fantasy genre of elves and ogres. Only an idiot would make the claim that elves aren't less "masculine" than your common ogre, and yet elves are still pretty damn popular. However, not every incarnation of bishounen or elves is as 'androgynous' as some would like to portray.

The Japanese seem to have it down pretty well (discounting androgynous visual kei bands.. yech), unlike many men who are just as whiny about "prettyboys" as some muscleless geek who cries about the impossible archetype of a bodybuilder, and long for the days of old, like how your common Republican longs for the days of the 50s. You find both using only fictional examples. Funnily enough, neither ever experienced the real thing, and probably wouldn't like it if they did. If I ever heard some slob infront of me play the victim, whining about all the "effeminate pretty boys" stealing all the women and saying that one day, they'd realize their mistake and choose them -- because they're so much better -- I would kick their ass.

You want to see real "hyper-masculinity" at work, head to the Middle East, or a moonshining shack on the side of a mountain. That doesn't mean reject masculinity entirely -- FAR from it, but remember the old saying that you can have too much of a good thing.


As Felstrom said; if it works for you, good. If not, fix it.

Don't try to change the definition.


A friend of mine wears makeup (not eyeliner or blush, and I was never able to tell until he told me), does the whole bleached/spiked Lance Bass-esque crap, and often flaunts his muscular structure with overly tight clothes. He could also probably kick my ass, or come closed to it. But he's not a limp wristed, blubbery joke, and he would never be mistaken for a female. That doesn't mean he doesn't have feminine features.
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#329168 - 05/21/08 04:24 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Well damn, I always thought the Vikings and Black Beard were masculine. I'm so confused now.

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#329169 - 05/21/08 04:25 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You're missing the point entirely.

There are shades of colors, even black and white.

Someone purely masculine -- in the strictest definition of the word -- would probably end up looking and acting like a hairy (possibly tanned) "Bizarro" from Superman.

I doubt a whole lot of women have a Bizarro fetish. But some do.
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#329172 - 05/21/08 04:33 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
So like partly masculine and feminine? We're combinations of the two rather than fall into one extreme or the other? I think that's most people then. Which makes me wonder why masculinity or femininity even matters. I'm not awfully concerned with being one or the other, or even both. Nor do I know many people who even think about it. Then again, I've never been one to favor gender roles or tradition.

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#329173 - 05/21/08 04:41 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
So like partly masculine and feminine? We're combinations of the two rather than fall into one extreme or the other? I think that's most people then.


Exactly.

And I've never met someone hyper-masculine, or hyper-feminine, who wasn't an uninspiring asshole/bitch.

Regardless of them not being "completely" one way, I would sooner envy a professional wrestler, than a limp-wristed emokid, or drag queen.
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#329174 - 05/21/08 04:47 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I agree but it works in reverse also. I'd envy a limp-wristed emo rock star over some run of the mill wrestler wanna-be. :P Who you think gets more? Success is not measured by masculinity in men.

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#329176 - 05/21/08 04:49 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You might prefer the effeminate joke who couldn't hold his own in a mugging, but that's your choice.

Success not being measured by masculinity? Maybe not in the strictest sense of the word, but I don't remember anyone wearing eyeliner being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.
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#329178 - 05/21/08 05:00 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Nor do you see any of them without a clean cut style and a nice wardrobe. A bum off the street is more masculine by definition than all those CEO's combined. During the aristocratic period in Europe an upper class gentlemen would not be caught dead without his makeup and wig. Times change and what defines the upper class and extreme wealth and fortune changes as well. So one day it may be surprising to hear of a man without eyeliner, especially in a position of power. Not saying that is going to happen any time soon. The possibility that something of that nature will happen increases with the passing of time. History has a way to subtly repeat itself.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 05:01 AM)

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#329179 - 05/21/08 05:04 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You're correct.

Times change, and aesthetics change, but that doesn't mean masculinity has changed -- which is, correct me if I'm wrong -- what the concept of this thread was centred around.
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#329185 - 05/21/08 06:39 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
If success of a man is measured by his masculinity in the strictest sense of the word then, yes, it has. If not, masculinity has not changed and it serves a very minute purpose to fixate on it. So either way it is PO-TATO-OS and potatoes, or if you live in some southern areas it may be taters. I'm trying to make sense of what is being discussed and you helped clear some of it up.

Other than that I honestly can't say now whether it changed or not. If masculinity equated being hairy and unkempt then historically men have willingly emasculated themselves. Which brings me to believe that there is a different definition and image of modern masculinity. If by Websters definition it equates to men and their social nature. Then follows suite that the definition of masculinity changes as does the man and his social nature.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 06:41 AM)

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#329188 - 05/21/08 06:46 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
You think a bum on the street is masculine? Are you kidding? Think about it for a moment. Then re-read this entire discussion. A bum is seriously lacking in several important areas.

Also, it seems as if you're confusing masculinity with attractiveness or fashionable.


Edited by ealaiontoir (05/21/08 06:48 AM)
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#329190 - 05/21/08 06:53 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I was using a bum for exaggerated affect. Of course, I could use Billy Bob Joe who wears a hunting cap and has his beer belly hang over his Texas shaped belt buckle. His muscled biceps covered in something that appears to be carpeting but at closer examination is found to be coarse hair. Leaving the only place for him to tattoo his confederate flag to be the deltoid of the arm. By the smell you can tell he has not changed his underwear in a month and and by the gap-tooh grin you can see he has not brushed in at least a year. There's your masculine man; according to what was described as masculine in this thread. Would you like Billy Bob Joe to give you a kiss?


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 06:54 AM)

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#329193 - 05/21/08 07:09 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
There's your masculine man; according to what was described as masculine in this thread.


I'm not trying to be obtuse or contentious but I do not see what you've described being equated with masculinity. Can you point out specifically where in this thread that happened?
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#329194 - 05/21/08 07:10 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir

I can't fathom why someone would wear makeup to bed. That seems a little more like insecurity than vanity to me.


You obviously have not seen my ex girlfriend wake up at 4 o'clock without makeup!
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#329195 - 05/21/08 07:11 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
So like partly masculine and feminine? We're combinations of the two rather than fall into one extreme or the other? I think that's most people then. Which makes me wonder why masculinity or femininity even matters.


Have you even read The Satanic Witch?
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