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#329224 - 05/21/08 08:40 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: TheDegenerate]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
No, Phosis, go back and read again. I'm saying that I don't see how some things are inherently feminine and masculine. It is subjective to time and society as well as perception. If all things relating to beauty are feminine then men have emasculated themselves all throughout history, and willingly at that. What is wrong with that? Does what I say not make sense in the context? Where did I state any of what you said I stated?


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 08:41 AM)

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#329226 - 05/21/08 08:45 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3547
Loc: Cowtown
You just repeated exactly what I stated, that you feel masculinity is subjective, and not already perfectly defined.

Natural masculinity and femininity has been the same for thousands of years, and it hasn't changed. They are specific properties. The gentle curves of a woman, or the rock-hard bodies of men. (simple examples.)


If you want to politely step out of the topic you were so eager to get involved in, and back-peddle towards a different opinion, then do it. I read everything you said perfectly well, and since it has all been argumentative nonsense up to this point, I don't feel the need to spend any more time with it.

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#329243 - 05/21/08 09:37 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Muse Offline

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Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
Quote:
Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.

Ok, I'm in shock. I didn't know women like this actually exist, outside of sitcoms that is. I consider myself to be girly and fairly vain, but I wouldn't entertain the thought of wearing makeup to bed or changing my nail polish daily. Hell, I'm thrilled if my manicure makes it a week.


I agree that women do things for ourselves and other women as much as we do it for men (I'm thinking bubble baths and various forms of pampering here). Unless a conversation is overheard about a midnight serenade, I can't fathom why someone would wear makeup to bed. That seems a little more like insecurity than vanity to me.

Maybe us yankee gals are just different.


Well, I must admit that I am a pretty high maintainance lady. My finger nails and toe nails are groomed and painted daily, my hair is always perfect (although not hard as a rock with spray), I wear make-up to bed more often than not, and I abhor camping without water and electricity because it makes beautification rather difficult. No, I'm not insecure. I know how good I can look and choose to look that way as much as possible.



Edited by Sarah (05/21/08 09:41 AM)
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#329258 - 05/21/08 10:49 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
Quote:
I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!).

Ok, I'm in shock. I didn't know women like this actually exist,



Maybe they do it for the same reason some women wear high heels to bed.

What? blush
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#329269 - 05/21/08 11:24 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Lamia Nin Offline
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 169
Loc: The web's center
Originally Posted By: Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz
>> The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.<<

I love my shaving ritual. I love my silver English Shaving Co' set.

And I am very particular about my hair.

I love clothes and fashion and enjoy shopping for them and creatively putting ensembles together.

I never sit around like a slob. I might not "put the ensembles together" if I am sitting in the house but I get freshened up and dressed properly every day, even if I am not leaving the house.

And it's not because I think it's how women want me to look. But the fact that women ALWAYS mention how well I dress is a compliment that I like.

I also like the fact that women think it sets me apart from the typical male you just described.

And for those that don't know - no, I am not one of the jolly boys.





I find this description (Thank You Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz)
very appealing in a Gentlemanly way, and certainly quite masculine.

There is a not a fine line between a Cary Grant type of man and an Emo type or Metrosexual.


Masculinity for me seems quite varied, the one thing I know is that you know when you see it, there is no question about it, no wondering.



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#329277 - 05/21/08 11:44 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Lamia Nin]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Originally Posted By: Lamia Nin

There is a not a fine line between a Cary Grant type of man and an Emo type or Metrosexual.


Cary Grant in the role of Rhett Butler for Gone With the Wind is the epitome of gentlemanly masculinity to me smile

You have excellent taste!


Edited by Nicolette (05/21/08 11:47 AM)
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#329279 - 05/21/08 11:52 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
Lamia Nin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 169
Loc: The web's center
Oh Hell Yes Nikkie!

Rhett Butler (Clark Gable or Cary Grant) is a Man of Sexy Proportion! coopdevil

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#329280 - 05/21/08 11:54 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
C.F. Kane Offline

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Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
Quote:
Cary Grant in the role of Rhett Butler for Gone With the Wind is the epitome of gentlemanly masculinity to me smile


I believe you mean Clark Gable , but Cary Grant is certainly no slouch
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#329289 - 05/21/08 12:12 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: C.F. Kane]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
In my excitement, I did confuse the two! Whoops blush ah well.

Start bringing up those old time gents and I get all in a flutter laugh
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#329321 - 05/21/08 03:36 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
gypsy Offline
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Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Quote:
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up? What the hell is masculinity anyway? Being buff? Physically fit? Being a stereotyped male? Herd conformity?


Oh My Goth. smirk

I love it when people cry out about herd conformity, particularly those who play so hard at trying to be different and end up surrendering their uniqueness to another group identity.
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#329340 - 05/21/08 05:35 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I'm saying that I don't see how some things are inherently feminine and masculine. It is subjective to time and society as well as perception. If all things relating to beauty are feminine then men have emasculated themselves all throughout history, and willingly at that.

Having slogged through this (extremely interesting, thanks all!) thread it is this post I have decided to jump on. Sorry Falloutgod, it's nothing personal.

You can argue until you are blue in the face that masculinity is subjective but it simply isn't so. Masculinity is masculinity, and femininity is femininity. You may wish to debate whether this or that expresses masculinity (in particular your beloved eye shadow) but ultimately masculinity is and always will be objective - it is what characterises a man. Your argument that this has been different in various periods in history does not hold up to scrutiny, and it certainly doesn't apply to now either.

Give me ONE example of a society in history where men as a norm have taken on what we consider exclusively feminine roles. I'm wracking my brains and I'm stumped. Sure, there are tons of examples (some cited above) where particular actions/fetishes/activities/styles that we consider female have been considered characteristic of a man or not, but what a man is has never been disputed even in nominally matriarchal societies (and there are precious few of those).

Face paint? Sure, to this day native tribes are using it, but they're not doing it to look pretty, they're using it as part of a tradition of expressing their masculinity. Tattoos? Same thing. Men wearing make up in the French court and dressing like fops? They weren't trying to look pretty, they were following a style of dress that was linked to men, and you better not piss one of them off or they'll happily duel you to the death for besmirching their honour, again a masculine trait. Men wearing skirts in Scotland and calling them kilts? Again, a style of dress that a majority of men subscribed to, thus linking it to the normative perception of masculinity.

To reverse this, you think the Spartans (one of the most rigid and male-centric societies in history) were walking around going "Hey, check out my abs and tan - I look hawt!"? No? Why not? Muscles and a healthy colour are symbolic of manliness are they not? They didn't do this because as Leviathan and others have pointed out, the modern concept of male attractiveness being linked to athleticism is extremely new. It probably wouldn't have occurred to them that their six packs were attractive, they just had them by virtue of the very vigorous and exercise-heavy lives they led.

To use an extreme example, if a pink tutu became widely considered a male style of dress men could wear it AND NOT BE ANY LESS MASCULINE. The wearing of an article of clothing doesn't change what they are.

Unless the genders themselves change enough to no longer be what we consider male and female, masculinity and femininity will always remain separate. Certainly the roles that men and women play in society may change over time (as they have considerably over the last 100 years), but we will still ultimately be two separate sexes and our natures will be the same.

So, by all means, say you think wearing eye liner is attractive, that it suits you, that they women seem to like it, that it needn't be something exclusively feminine - whatever. But don't try and argue that because you don't feel it's not an effeminate affectation that in reality "all masculinity is subjective".
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#329390 - 05/21/08 09:34 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Muse]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Ok, I do make mistakes once in a blue moon wink Thanks for sharing your perspective, I really do appreciate it.
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#329402 - 05/21/08 10:22 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
Oh, not a mistake, you just didn't know that little tidbit about me! No harm done. smile
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Hear Adult Fairy Tales, Short Stories, Poetry, and more! coopdevil
Twilight Tales with Muse only on Radio Free Satan!!
(Currently on hiatus while I attend to grad school, but I have every intention of bringing the show back when the time is right!)


The holy trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

"Does anyone ever realize life while they are living it? Every, every minute?"
- Emily, Our Town, by Thornton Wilder


"Life's like a ballgame. You gotta take a swing at whatever comes along before you wake up and find it's the ninth inning." ~Vera (Ann Savage) in Detour





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#329434 - 05/22/08 02:49 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Scion]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Um... This is what I was trying to communicate Scion. crazy Maybe I miss-used the word subjective or phrased something wrong. I don't recall stating that masculinity is subjective. I was saying that things that are attributed to masculinity differ. They differ by culture, time period and environment. Unless I did not understand you correctly and we are on two different pages.

Here's a side note about me if you are curious enough to read on. While I do wear an atrocious amount of black and dark clothing that's not what I always wear. You would not see me wear my eyeliner with my faded Jimi Hendrix shirt and ripped up jeans. Not with my preppy polo shirts and khaki pants. I mix and match to gain whatever effect I desire. If I fall into any group it would be more as a poser than anything else.

Just because I like eyeliner does not mean I'm full blown goth/emo/whatever. So most people who cater to one scene or another don't like me. I mingle with their proclaimed social enemies. Well, they would not like me if they actually caught on. Which doesn't seem to happen as they all hang around different places. It's great. Surprised? I could have saved it but I imagine most people will forget by the time they ever get a chance to meet me in person. smile

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#329453 - 05/22/08 06:31 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Speaking of men who are masculine, and men that choose a different look. There are many men right here on LttD, in my eyes, that look and act like true men. No makeup, nothing to prove, quick witted, intelligent beyond comprehension, and yes, they have their looks. Some men on here do not have their real pictures, so I can only go on what they post. Those men that post very intelligent essays and writings are what attracts my eye. Then there are a couple of men on here, that have their real picture posted. Well, at least I think it is their real picture. I have been attracted to certain men because of their picture and because of their intelligence. Also, I can't forget confidence. Certain men on here are so confident, I read whatever they write because it's true pleasure for me.

Above there has been mention of Clark Gable and Cary Grant. Just to name two.

In the entertainment field. There are many actors that exude manliness. Robert Redford. Clint Eastwood. Jack Nicholson. Spencer Tracy. My all time favorite, Sean Connery. Those are just some from the top of my head. There are many more that are truly good looking men, and intellingent men, and men that I'm sure never wore eyeliner, except if it were in a movie role.

The subject of this thread is, "Modern Masculinity". I don't see the need for modern masculinity. Let a man, be a man. In my mind, when a male chooses to wear makeup, in any way, it's their choice, but a choice I don't understand.

Give me that 5 o'clock shadow anyday, with no eyeliner! Give me a strong mind and character, give me a smile, through that beard. Give me a man!!
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