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#328533 - 05/17/08 08:03 PM Modern Masculinity
ZackC Offline


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: WA
I am a student at Carroll College in Helena, MT and have enjoyed my time there alot. In fact this past freshman year has been the best time of my life. It is curiously enough a Catholic Liberal Arts College, that's right a Catholic school. Reading that probably caused a few gringes. That being said, the people are very very kind an I got and excellent ROTC scholarship. The school's tution is about 22,000 a year, and I get it all paid for. I also feel as though I am getting a very well rounded education.
I had to write a research paper as my final assignment in my composition class. The topic I chose was 'Modern Maculinity' and I even got an -A on it. He even gave me an A for the course too, even though all my other grades in his class were...unfortunate...and I bombed my library componet.
I would really love to read some views of Modern Masculinity from a Satanists perspective. I don't want to promt to much, I just want honest thoughts on how masculinity has changed and is continuing to change; how you all would define masculinity personally and maybe talk about its importance, if any is percieved.

I am really curious to read these responses!!!


Edited by ZackC (05/17/08 08:05 PM)
Edit Reason: Grammer

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#328535 - 05/17/08 08:25 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Masculinity has not and never will change. The only thing that has changed is our willingness to cope with it in raw form.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328537 - 05/17/08 08:27 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
My opinion is that never before has masculinity been as undervalued and ridiculed as it is now.
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#328553 - 05/17/08 10:37 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1020
Well said, Sir.
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#328559 - 05/17/08 11:34 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
C.F. Kane Offline

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Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
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"Maybe I'll make some teeth and whiskers." -C.F. Kane


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#328580 - 05/18/08 04:48 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
I guess how yo view "masculinity" really depends on what subculture you are looking at. You can't judge a society as a whole based on a few subcultures.

Overall I think masculinity hasn't changed. As what has been masculine many many years in the past is still masculine today. We just have gained more sub cultures and social movements that stick out more than the age old MAN, mainly due to the bright makeup they are wearing.

These groups usually don't really care about masculinity or know what it means. They are too concerned with fashion, makeup and unicorns.
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#328713 - 05/19/08 05:35 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: tovasshi]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up? What the hell is masculinity anyway? Being buff? Physically fit? Being a stereotyped male? Herd conformity?

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#328724 - 05/19/08 07:54 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
What the hell is masculinity anyway?


Who the hell cares?

People who tries to be masculine more often that not ends up looking foolish instead.

And as someone said before me, masculinity is a different thing looking at different subcultures. Hey, look at heavy metal people - some of them think of masculinity as pissing on graves and watching people get executed at the internet.

If you feel like wearing make up, who the hell cares? Good for you and doesn't hurt anyone.
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#328725 - 05/19/08 07:57 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
"What the hell is masculinity anyway?"

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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#328735 - 05/19/08 10:07 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up?

Yes. Like it or not it does.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328745 - 05/19/08 10:29 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
TheDegenerate Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
I think masculinity does have some general properties, and is not simply up to the definition of the individual. A guy who is ripped looking, tough in some way, is going to be considered more masculine then the pencil-necked geek, or, in your case, a guy who likes to slap on some eyeshadow. I don't think it has anything to do with herd conformity, or any of that nonsense. Sure, there are a lot of meat heads who spend too much time at the gym, getting pumped on steroids...but they will still be perceived as more masculine than the equally abhorrent dork who is far too pale, wears black nail polish, and always looks like he is about to jump off a bridge.

It's all personal preference. Not every male is going to look, or desire to look, "tough" by default, though having a fit body, a bit of facial or chest hair, a square chin and broad shoulders are inherently manly traits. In the same, not all women have the ability to take advantage of all of their feminine wiles, and are therefore not perceived as being feminine. They are labeled as "butch", or whatever the term might be.

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#328746 - 05/19/08 10:31 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
D. Macabre Offline
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Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up?


Yes, indeed it does - Men are not supposed to wear make up. That's why it's not marketed for Men. Nevermind it makes you look like a fruit cake, of course I may be alone in that opinion, but it's still my take on it.
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Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
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“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

"I have only ONE thing to say to trendy brain-dead music-centered youth: “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” SHITHEADS – PULL UP YOUR STUPID PANTS AND FORM A LINE AT THE PLATFORMS, THE TRAINS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON." --Magister James D. Sass

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#328754 - 05/19/08 11:30 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
The purpose of everyday women's makeup is to gild the lily.

When a woman wears makeup, whether or not she wears it to please a man, it sends a message that she cares about her appearance; that she is trying to please others with her looks.

This is more natural to a woman. Such things as makeup, heels, and erotic dance are visually stimulating and natural to a woman's body and features.

In my opinion, a man's attractiveness is based upon his functionality, what he can do. A masculine man is one that can take care of business. He can be among many things, a lover and a protector. Basic hygiene and grooming standards aside, it doesn't matter if his hands are calloused or if he's had his nose broken.

In short, men aren't meant to be pretty, and I am not interested in any man who tries to be so. If I want a woman, I'll go get a woman.

Yes, one can argue that there are cultural and purpose driven situations in which a man might wear makeup. Warriors have had a long history of wearing it. I can imagine that it is necessary in certain careers - it certainly makes me think no less of John Wayne if he ever had to get his face powdered before rolling film. NFL players wear it to keep sunlight out of their eyes, and to be more intimidating.

But in these situations, the donning of makeup by a man is purpose-driven to various masculine feats. It serves a purpose. It is not worn just for the sake of being pretty - that is when it becomes, in fact, a feminine endeavor.
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#328758 - 05/19/08 11:44 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Philotechnic Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
You see, if you want to play into being masculine, that includes giving into preconceived notions of masculinity such as using strength and brute force, asserting decisions, being competitive, etc.

Just wanting make up to be masculine isn't enough, it's already a preconceived notion for most people that makeup is very feminine.

The Satanist is pragmatic because he uses what's available and works with it, instead of against it.

Of course you can try combining makeup and typical male masculinity, but I'm afraid it would come off looking like this:


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#328760 - 05/19/08 11:48 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
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#328762 - 05/19/08 11:51 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: C.F. Kane]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Exsanguinate!!!


I replied with the link to this book before I read your link. I'll leave my link in case one of our links are not read. wink
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#328763 - 05/19/08 11:53 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up?

Yes. Of course from a Lesser Magic persepective, whether or not this is ultimately counter-productive for you is another story.

Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
What the hell is masculinity anyway? [...] Being a stereotyped male? Herd conformity?

Nope. coopdevil
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#328786 - 05/19/08 01:53 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I have no idea how the idea of masculinity has changed or continues to change. That is a bit abstract for me. I am sure you would have more to say on that subject.

I do have my views on what it is to be masculine, or a personal code of conduct. I also think that there is often a tendency to follow one extreme or another. There is a trend to apologize for being masculine, often tinged with over sensitivity and a need to emote. On the other hand, there is macho posturing.

My personal views on masculinity stem from attitudes that seem to have been innate since childhood, with attitudes I assume are cultural. I feel an urge to protect women, children and defenseless animals. I feel bigger is better, in a physical sense. If a man is of small stature, there are ways to project an image of size and virility. I enjoy feeling and appearing strong, and feel a sense of shame when it comes to weakness. I try to find a balance in standing up when I need to, and turning a deaf ear when that seems wise. I rarely ask for help. I prize my ability to get things done. Even when I am feeling unsure, I like to appear decisive. I enjoy opening doors for ladies, and almost always open the car door for my wife. I feel shame when I lose control of my emotions, but I am not ashamed to cry when I feel moved. I think that masculinity is evidenced by intellectual, as well as physical prowess. I have no time for men who are afraid of being touched. I like feeling in charge.
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#328795 - 05/19/08 02:38 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
Modern masculinity is not. wink As stated here.

Masculinity: those who have it, have it. Those who have to work at it or ask, have no idea.

The same applies to being feminine.

It is popular to say that words no longer mean what they do, that thy are to be interpreted in any suitable fashion, that their meaning is subjective. No dice. No amount of revisionist pc creampufery will change the archetypes of what is masculine and feminine.

I refer you to Dr. LaVey's works for further study.
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#328798 - 05/19/08 02:59 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: ZackC]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
The definition of Masculinity may be a subjective one.

In Webster's dictionary Masculinity is defined as "1 male; of men or boys 2 suitable to or having qualities regarded as typial of men; strong, vigorous"

"Typical" is the operative word here.

I can be sensitive, and cry over SPCA commercials and even King Kong-yes King King (he was misunderstood). Some may look at that as a weakness and in our society be associated with feminist qualities and feminist qualities in men are seen as a weakness.

However, I am by far a milksop. I do tend to have feminine qualities but I do have many masculine qualities as well. I can cry over an injured child animal and empathize with someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one. On the other hand I will not hesitate to set boundaries with other people, and recently had to confront someone about trying to bully my wife around.

Some men may think that because I do have feminine qualities and embrace them would mean that I am NOT masculine, I feel that it makes me MORE masculine since I am balanced. Some men I know in an effort to project masculinity will suppress any evidence that they are sensitive thus leaving them weak in other areas.

I have also met many so called "men" who think that are masculine and "manly" but have their women support them financially, do the house chores as well as take care of their children. I think that those kind of men are the least masculine since they are looking for a surrogate Mommy not a wife and are too scared to face masculinity.

The book "Androphilia" is a good one, I am reading it now and is recommended.

Personally I feel that it helps to fully understand masculinity if you can also embrace femininity but not allowing either one to overpower the other.

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#328813 - 05/19/08 03:55 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: DickSteele]
D. Macabre Offline
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Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
Originally Posted By: DickSteele
Personally I feel that it helps to fully understand masculinity if you can also embrace femininity but not allowing either one to overpower the other.


Agreed. The line is drawn and as long as it's not crossed then you remain balanced. Now, if you start being sensitive and caring in stilettos and a mini skirt, that's a different story. eek
_________________________
D. Macabre
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
Watch Society Crumble!
The Social Cesspool!
The Grumpy Sergeant

"A man who limits his interests, limits his life." --Vincent Price

“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

"I have only ONE thing to say to trendy brain-dead music-centered youth: “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” SHITHEADS – PULL UP YOUR STUPID PANTS AND FORM A LINE AT THE PLATFORMS, THE TRAINS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON." --Magister James D. Sass

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#328819 - 05/19/08 04:29 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
RaSc Offline
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Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
I don't wear makeup and I agree with your assessment. However, I would say that feminine makeup styles on a man is different from say, makeup used in movies and theater. Rugged masculinity can be accentuated in this way.

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#328824 - 05/19/08 05:10 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: RaSc]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Stage makeup is a professional matter not particularly relevant to masculinity. This is mostly because it's not apparent that makeup is being worn, or at least it's not meant to be.

However, if someone wears stage makeup offstage then they're being vain, and again, vanity is not really a masculine trait.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328830 - 05/19/08 05:59 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
RaSc Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
Perhaps there exists a variable of degrees for the use of makeup in masculinity. You make a valid argument that vanity is not really a masculine trait. I agree, but I think there could be a little more to it.

Could the subtle use of makeup work outside the professional realm in personal situations? For example, a clear complexion is much more appealing than say glaring imperfections. In this case vanity would be replaced by pride and a bit of lesser-magic. In this case, the use of makeup could convince others by hiding otherwise glaring imperfections that could play negatively on others' perceptions. It could, in a sense, be a little nudge of sub-conscious persuasion.

Of course, a caveat: less is more. I admit that even the perception of makeup use on a man would indeed be counter-productive in many societies. A successful deception would be more compelling than the alternative although the chance of success is slim.

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#328872 - 05/19/08 09:29 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
However, if someone wears stage makeup offstage then they're being vain, and again, vanity is not really a masculine trait.

That is the only part of your argument that I disagree with in this thread.

What we are really talking about here with the "men wearing make-up thing" is culturally acceptable forms of adornment.

Men, in this culture, don't wear face make-up, but they do wear suits, work out to get nice muscles, cut and style their hair, wear cologne, tattoo and pierce their bodies, buy nice cars, and accumulate wealth and items that indicate wealth. These things are not that different from face make-up; they are all meant to attract mates.

It's not the make-up itself, it's that make-up in this culture is typically feminine, and therefore not masculine. Men are just as vain, but adorn themselves differently.

Yes?

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#328874 - 05/19/08 09:41 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Well put!

Quote:
This is more natural to a woman. Such things as makeup, heels, and erotic dance are visually stimulating and natural to a woman's body and features.

I may need to borrow you, I would enjoy having a ringer in class. smile
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#328875 - 05/19/08 09:45 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: D. Macabre]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I think this statement that men are not supposed to wear make up is herd conformity. "You aren't supposed to say this, you aren't supposed to wear that." Blah blah blah blah, it's not like I'm hurting anyone so why am I not supposed to do it? Because someone said so? Because someone thinks I look silly?

Well, no, no, and hell no! I think I look good, I like to look good and cover up any blemishes or tone variations with foundation even if I don't wear eyeliner or eyeshadow. Which for work and things related to survival I will only wear foundation. No one ever noticed or said anything, most men don't have a clue what it even is. So in my honest opinion and view on masculinity as you describe it would be that it is stupid. Just because it's not average does not mean you are not supposed to do it. I need a better argument than that to buy into such statements. Good thing about this forums secular inhabitants is I won't have to hear the "Because God blah blah" side of the issue. :P

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#328876 - 05/19/08 09:54 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Quote:
However, if someone wears stage makeup offstage then they're being vain, and again, vanity is not really a masculine trait.


I agree that men wearing make up in every day life is not especially masculine. However, I know plenty of heterosexual men who are vain. They don't wear make up, but they are well-groomed work out. I appreciate it when a man goes out of his way to look, feel, and smell nice. However, it's a problem if a man takes longer to get ready for a night out than I do. Maybe this male population in my life is unusual, or maybe more men would consider themselves vain if they were honest and not concerned with social stigmas.
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#328877 - 05/19/08 10:06 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I think the men you refer to are metrosexual like me. A lot of stigma is that it means you are somehow homosexual in nature or have such traits. Not all metrosexual men talk in a funny accent through the nose or make eccentric feminine gestures. That's a stupid stereotype that also fails to describe all homosexuals accurately. It only serves to perpetuate stupid misconceptions.

Not that the eccentric gestures or nose tone is bad. However, I just don't find it to be my thing or attractive to me. I work out and keep active, I listen to music some would say is hardcore and man music(whatever that is). I also like to listen to sappy sad stuff every once in a while which would be considered feminine. It surprised my recent girlfriend I knew lyrics to a Modana song.

In the end I suppose what would separate me from masculine men is that I groom and shave more than they do. I also wear make up to appear nice and presentable based on the social situation. So if that means I'm not masculine then fuck it, I don't really care. It's stupid to assume that I am somehow gay in nature or have homosexual tendencies just because I like to look nice. That would be like saying a gay man has straight tendencies because he act's really "masculine". The book about masculinity sounds like a load of dogmatic cultural bull shit to me. What do I know? I wear make up. lol



Edited by FalloutGod (05/19/08 10:12 PM)

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#328880 - 05/19/08 10:33 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Anytime hun wink
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#328881 - 05/19/08 10:46 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
No. They are certainly not metrosexual.

I fail to see the connection you are attempting to make between "hardcore" music and masculinity. I know plenty of masculine men who have eclectic musical tastes: R&B, jazz, bluegrass, classical, rock, and more. You seem to be buying into a misconception, masculine does not mean unkempt and hairy. Also, you might want to read the book before jumping to conclusions, especially because it was recommended by several Satanists (who tend to avoid dogmatic cultural bullshit).
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"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#328886 - 05/19/08 11:10 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2196
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I think this statement that men are not supposed to wear make up is herd conformity. "You aren't supposed to say this, you aren't supposed to wear that."


Men and women do have the right to wear whatever they feel is pleasing to them but this isn't the topic of discussion.

A man that wears make-up for personal taste doesn't necessarily have to be homosexual but it is clearly obvious that this subtracts from his masculinity.

If a woman on the other hand wears men's clothing, regardless of sexual preference, you don't think that subtracts from her femininity?
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#328889 - 05/19/08 11:20 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
D. Macabre Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I think this statement that men are not supposed to wear make up is herd conformity. "You aren't supposed to say this, you aren't supposed to wear that." Blah blah blah blah, it's not like I'm hurting anyone so why am I not supposed to do it? Because someone said so? Because someone thinks I look silly?

Well, no, no, and hell no! I think I look good, I like to look good and cover up any blemishes or tone variations with foundation even if I don't wear eyeliner or eyeshadow. Which for work and things related to survival I will only wear foundation. No one ever noticed or said anything, most men don't have a clue what it even is. So in my honest opinion and view on masculinity as you describe it would be that it is stupid. Just because it's not average does not mean you are not supposed to do it. I need a better argument than that to buy into such statements. Good thing about this forums secular inhabitants is I won't have to hear the "Because God blah blah" side of the issue. :P



No, HERD mentality would be me saying that because society is against it, you should not do it. The fact of the matter is, make up is not marketed for men, therefore I do not think they should wear it. If you want to be a cross dressing make up wearing fruit cake, then have fun. I just don't think it's masculine, that is the topic is it not?
_________________________
D. Macabre
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
Watch Society Crumble!
The Social Cesspool!
The Grumpy Sergeant

"A man who limits his interests, limits his life." --Vincent Price

“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

"I have only ONE thing to say to trendy brain-dead music-centered youth: “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” SHITHEADS – PULL UP YOUR STUPID PANTS AND FORM A LINE AT THE PLATFORMS, THE TRAINS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON." --Magister James D. Sass

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#328890 - 05/19/08 11:47 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: D. Macabre]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
I'm surprised that by now no one has mentioned this whole mascara-man/metrosexual bit as being a little herd conformist in and of itself.

I mean, if one looks at a good deal of pop-culture and advertising one finds a lot of douche bags in mascara and uber-tight Ed Hardy t-shirts shaving and Axe-ing themselves whilst blathering on about their feelings.

Now, if that makes one happy and provides the desired effect, well, I say "Hail Satan!" to that. However, I won't wear make-up, not even on Halloween (Werewolf garb is more my thing,) and if you want to see my body you will have to take my clothes off! cool

My masculinity is in my pants for the most part, a birth right, if you will.

What diminishes this remains to be determined, but I would offer this:

Maybe its Maybeline? wink
_________________________
"This is my body which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of me." - I Cor. 11:24

"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." -Mark Twain

"Maybe I'll make some teeth and whiskers." -C.F. Kane


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#328901 - 05/20/08 01:37 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Depends how you define vanity. That one is tricky.

There's prom queen "who is the fairest of them all" vanity, which is always emasculating, and then there's vanity seen in a broader sense, as self-love, be it based on appearance or other qualities.

I only note this because I thought about writing an essay about the difference between vanity and self respect and ended up stuck on the word vanity because it means so many things.

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#328902 - 05/20/08 01:44 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Thanks.

Masculinity really all reduces down to strength--physical or otherwise.

In women, strength is optional, because women who are not strong are a commodity. Weak males are not a commodity; they are expendable. This is a fundamental part of the human experience, and shifts in popular values cannot correct this. As long as men value women who are weak willed, or, perhaps more accurately and less negatively, are willing to appear to submit to get what they want, masculinity and femininity will continue to mean what they mean. The more I think about this the more convinced I am that this gender confusion is a symptom of a dying culture and that nature will self-correct. In an unforgiving way.


Edited by Rev_Malebranche (05/20/08 01:45 AM)

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#328905 - 05/20/08 02:35 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
To address both you and Zaftig:

Being heterosexual and being masculine are not the same. One can be plenty heterosexual but not masculine, and even be effeminate. One is an instinctive mental state, the other is a choice of where we like to bed. They are as unrelated as our deep voice is to our preference for white meat or dark.

Being well-groomed is also fine, but it isn't part of masculinity. Not to say it's a bad thing, obviously even I shave, cut my hair (or shave my head as the case may be), wash my clothes, etc. But this isn't a manly pursuit, it's a requirement of social norms and a requirement of modern women.

The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.

You want to know what a man would look like if he had his way? Look at Vikings, pirates, and mountain men. Men would be far less vain if it weren't for the nagging of women. What little vanity men do have in an all-male environment is more the greed of possession than it is aesthetics. Notice also that for uncivilized men the value of the object is more important than whether it "matches." They just want to move up a social rung.

No doubt you do appreciate it when men make an effort to look nice. But make no mistake, if you didn't have the one thing men are enslaved to we'd laugh at the very idea of it.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328906 - 05/20/08 02:39 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
I meant vanity as attention to appearance, not self-absorbed egotism. Most men are vain in the latter sense. Few men are seriously vain in the former sense.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328907 - 05/20/08 02:50 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
>> The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.<<

I love my shaving ritual. I love my silver English Shaving Co' set.

And I am very particular about my hair.

I love clothes and fashion and enjoy shopping for them and creatively putting ensembles together.

I never sit around like a slob. I might not "put the ensembles together" if I am sitting in the house but I get freshened up and dressed properly every day, even if I am not leaving the house.

And it's not because I think it's how women want me to look. But the fact that women ALWAYS mention how well I dress is a compliment that I like.

I also like the fact that women think it sets me apart from the typical male you just described.

And for those that don't know - no, I am not one of the jolly boys.


_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328908 - 05/20/08 02:53 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rev_Malebranche

Masculinity really all reduces down to strength--physical or otherwise.


That sentence alone convinced me to buy Androphilia. coopdevil
_________________________
Meine Ehre heißt Macht

Undercroft


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#328911 - 05/20/08 02:56 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You seem to be having a knee-jerk reaction to the opinions of several individuals.

Lighten up.

Just because the herd disagrees with it, doesn't mean we immediately should agree with it too.


Most would see vanity of any sort, lest in terms of appearance, inherently 'immasculine' in the physical sense of the word.

But, to paraphrase Pacino (or, lest, his character 'John Milton'), that sin is my favorite. wink
_________________________
Meine Ehre heißt Macht

Undercroft


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#328912 - 05/20/08 02:59 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Yet by your own implication it is more to do with the comfort of ritual and consistency than appearances. It is true, men do enjoy a stable routine, and some also enjoy being shaved due to the convenience of low maintanence. But in virtually every case, it really has more to do with personal comfort or laziness than anything else. At least, I am convinced of it.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328913 - 05/20/08 03:01 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Danny Mc. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
Quote:
But make no mistake, if you didn't have the one thing men are enslaved to we'd laugh at the very idea of it.


Exactly Reverend!

I say any "man" that wears make up, paints his fucking finger nails, or lives with an feminist idealogy of Modern Masculinity(spare no dog and pony show boys) is a pitiful shell of a man. coopdevil
_________________________
"To be born into this world a sentient, self-conscious and reasoning being, surrounded by inexhaustible glories in Nature, which we may comprehend, possess,enjoy; to be able to rise on the wings of a lofty imagination; to be able to get glimpses of the ideally perfect; to apprehend the Divine; it is to the development and enjoyment of these high powers that the young man is invited. How dare he refuse to qualify himself by the most perfect training of all his powers." Lyman J. Gage 1910


"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#328915 - 05/20/08 03:02 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
The better question is:

Does the fact that something is not stereotypically masculine matter?

Satanism encompasses the entire spectrum. Homosexuality for example is plainly enough not the biological "default" for the species, yet it finds no argument in Satanism nor does it strip you of your worth.

I'm blunt about what is masculine, yet I highly doubt many here are or want to be the extreme of masculinity. However, the fact that very many want so badly to be the epitome of masculinity that they will see if the rules cannot be changed to suit their case proves how strong the urge really is.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328916 - 05/20/08 03:03 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII

You want to know what a man would look like if he had his way? Look at Vikings, pirates, and mountain men.


I would agree that most men (albeit, not necessarily, "a man") would probably be unkempt as the latter two.

The first, unless I am mistaken, were notable for pouring practically bleach on their head to wash their hair.

Unless you meant these Vikings. coopdevil
_________________________
Meine Ehre heißt Macht

Undercroft


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#328917 - 05/20/08 03:09 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Yes, Vikings did practice some innovative hygeine. They also shared a washbowl, which they freely spit into, went extended periods without changing clothes, and shared slave women. Pirates were often dirty and completely uncouth, yet many of them sported elaborate gold jewelry (stolen of course) to make a rapper jealous. So there is an obvious balance there, isn't there? I doubt many men would relish the idea of being totally unwashed and filthy, yet how many of us have shaved a beard merely because a woman wanted it gone? I bet more than will admit to it. wink
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328918 - 05/20/08 03:22 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
>> Yet by your own implication it is more to do with the comfort of ritual and consistency than appearances <<

Nope. I have an image that I like to maintain. How I choose to look is a projection of my identity. My appearance is supremely important to me. But the deciding factor is that in doing so I differentiate myself from the hoi polloi. I don't wear off the peg fashions.

>> it really has more to do with personal comfort or laziness than anything else. <<

I disagree again. It takes effort.

Anyone who is anyone always makes an effort to maintain that something that sets them apart from the masses.

Perceptions change but through history males have always displayed their colours. Just like the animals.

The most beautiful peacocks are the males.

Vikings might have washed their hair in cow shit. But it was because it was perceived as top notch grooming in its day.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328920 - 05/20/08 03:23 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Do you propose that you are a standard example of men, then?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328923 - 05/20/08 03:34 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
Do you propose that you are a standard example of men, then?



As I say, males have always shown off.

Though perceptions change through history. No successful cave man would have been caught dead without yak shit rubbed in his hair.

Personally, I perfer my 70's red leather jacket, skinny fit jeans and vintage ties.

No I am not the standard example. I am one of the peacocks.

The standard example is the lack lustre slob you were describing.

In my opinion, Sir.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328924 - 05/20/08 03:41 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
So my point stands, you just felt like showing a few feathers. wink
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328948 - 05/20/08 07:31 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Based on your post, I don't see how men and women are that different in regard to vanity.

Quote:
Being well-groomed is also fine, but it isn't part of masculinity. Not to say it's a bad thing, obviously even I shave, cut my hair (or shave my head as the case may be), wash my clothes, etc. But this isn't a manly pursuit, it's a requirement of social norms and a requirement of modern women.

How do you think women look when we're staying in with girlfriends? We don't get dolled up all the time. Every year I go camping with the women I work with (at an all female company), everyone is wearing jeans & t-shirts, hair pulled back, and there's not a tube of lipstick in sight.

Quote:
The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.

I hate shaving or waxing, but do it anyway. I don't especially enjoy sitting in the hair salon for hours on end when I could be doing other things. Bathing & clothes go back to social status and attracting a desirable mate. While I do enjoy dressing up and wearing heels, there's a time and place for it. If I'm working at home all day I'm much more likely to wear yoga pants, a tank top, and flip flops. The illusion fades when you get too close.

Do men feel pressure to look athletic or is it vanity? Some of the men I train with are constantly checking their abs or flexing in the mirror, that seems like vanity to me.

I do understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with 100% of it. But I'm a female, so clearly I don't know anything about being a man. Interesting discussion.
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#328957 - 05/20/08 08:11 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Callier]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: Callier
If a woman on the other hand wears men's clothing, regardless of sexual preference, you don't think that subtracts from her femininity?


Funny, I've never had any complaints when I wore a man's dress shirt. Granted, I was wearing nothing else at the time. grin

For me, a man wearing make-up for personal aesthetics does not send a message I'm receptive too. I am all for a sharp dressed man, but excessive primping and preening would really make me question the fella's priorities.
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#328961 - 05/20/08 08:42 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Shade]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Hm, like Ealiaontoir, I think I may be a bit removed from the topic because I am a woman, but here is my opinion on the vanity subject.

I believe that the innate instinct in the human male is to prove their masculinity with acts rather than with looks. Even in cases where looks would have gotten the girl, it was because the looks promised his ability to take care of business.

I garauntee you in a post-apocalyptic situation, the most popular man is going to be the one who can protect his women, not look pretty.

In The Stand, one of the female characters learned early on that she was pregnant. She mused that liberation and feminism was great in the old world, but now that things were back to being survival of the fittest, she desperately needed a man who could take care of her.

I like it when a man smells good and looks good. It certainly does not detract from his masculinity, but it isn't what makes him attractive to me.

Millions of years of instinct don't just dissapear in a few generations.


Here is an interesting article on one man's opinion of Real Men.
_________________________
HS!

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#328964 - 05/20/08 08:47 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Shade]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Quote:
I am all for a sharp dressed man, but excessive primping and preening would really make me question the fella's priorities.


I love a man's man, it's a fact.

However, I also have an appreciation for men who know how to put themselves together well and has an aesthetic sense that stands apart from the herd (no, that never includes men with make-up, regardless of if it's noticable or not). That being said, if that man spends more time putting together an ensemble than I do, or spends a very notable amount of time discussing his appearance, ect.... well that does nothing but irritate me.

I've found that the most genuinely interesting looking men (in regards to their clothing and general appearance) don't really try too hard at it. It comes rather effortlessly to them, and they never look contrived. That's not easy to come by, but every once in a while, I see it.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

"An inordinate passion for pleasure is the secret of remaining young" - Oscar Wilde

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#328965 - 05/20/08 08:57 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Oh I knew what you meant, I was just pointing out that it is a tricky concept--with a lot of gray areas and nuances. That doesn't mean, mind you, that masculinity is all gray areas and nuances--which is what some people try to do with that discussion.

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#328966 - 05/20/08 09:03 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bruja]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Aye! I agree!

I also suspect some men spend a lot of time perfecting the illusion that they don't spend a lot of time on their appearance. coopdevil
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#328970 - 05/20/08 09:30 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bruja]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10566
Loc: England
>> I've found that the most genuinely interesting looking men (in regards to their clothing and general appearance) don't really try too hard at it. It comes rather effortlessly to them, and they never look contrived. That's not easy to come by, but every once in a while, I see it. <<

There's always thought (effort?) gone into it. There has to be.

The trick is making it look effortless. as if you've just thrown the clothes together.

Men can look good. But they should never look too polished, you are right.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#328972 - 05/20/08 09:42 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Personally I care less about looking athletic. I appreciate having the ability to lift things and beat someone's ass if needed. Function is more interesting than form.

Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.

Much of what women do isas much for themselves and other women as it is for men. A lot of things girls do, men in general just don't notice or care about.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#328975 - 05/20/08 10:20 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:
Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.


Those are cultural distinctions, not innate biological ones solely attributed to females.

In some cultures, men wear face paint and tattoos, or adorn themselves with feathers and scars - as much for other men as well as to attract women.

My argument is that this thing called vanity is not a particular masculine or feminine trait, but manifests differently according to different cultural influences.

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#328994 - 05/20/08 11:42 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Vikings bathed more than English men and brushed their hair often. Maybe I just didn't pay attention in history. I don't know, but didn't many vikings have their own combs that they treasured oh so much? Makeup inherently not masculine? Men have worn make up through history and still do in some tribal cultures. Tell them it's not masculine or manlike in nature.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/20/08 11:47 AM)

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#329001 - 05/20/08 12:04 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
D. Macabre Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
Men have worn make up through history and still do in some tribal cultures. Tell them it's not masculine or manlike in nature.


The difference between you and those natives is that the natives have been using make up as part of century old traditions. For a lot of them it’s a means of survival for hunting and camouflaging themselves from an enemy as well as an intricate part of their tribal ceremonies, again these are century old traditions. They are not like yourself, they are not walking into Wal-Mart and buying a compact of Loreal and putting it on in order to get some attention.
_________________________
D. Macabre
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
Watch Society Crumble!
The Social Cesspool!
The Grumpy Sergeant

"A man who limits his interests, limits his life." --Vincent Price

“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

"I have only ONE thing to say to trendy brain-dead music-centered youth: “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” SHITHEADS – PULL UP YOUR STUPID PANTS AND FORM A LINE AT THE PLATFORMS, THE TRAINS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON." --Magister James D. Sass

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#329028 - 05/20/08 02:15 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: D. Macabre]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
But they are putting it on to get attention are they not? Touche. Remember the Egyptians? My point is what does make-up have to do with masculinity? Nothing other than in most modern cultures it has become associated to be feminine and to be only associated with females. Which it has not been so before, and nor is grooming directly inherent to females. Man have groomed and tried to look nice all throughout history. Even pirates had some sense of aesthetics and the notion that they did not is absurd. Is not one of the most famous of them Black Beard? He was known for his eccentric dress and over the top flamboyance. It served him well with the lasses and on raids in the sea.

Bah... I think my point is lost on ye land dwellers. I don't care if according to this definition I'm not masculine. Yet the damn thing claims that all but the dirty slobs are feminine. Least that is the gist of what I got. Sounds absurd to me to claim that men have a predisposition to only look like bums. I don't, and never had and nor do I see history support this ludicrous notion.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/20/08 02:32 PM)

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#329045 - 05/20/08 04:01 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I don't care if according to this definition I'm not masculine.


Then stop trying to convince us that you wearing Maybelline is masculine. None of us landlubbers are buying it.

Yar.
_________________________
HS!

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#329046 - 05/20/08 04:08 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
So which tribe do you belong to?

Nor do I think warpaint and modern makeup expressly made for women quite equate. Nice try though.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#329048 - 05/20/08 04:12 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Wow, I really do see the resemblance...



_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#329065 - 05/20/08 05:32 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Felstorm Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
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Loc: Minnesota.
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up? What the hell is masculinity anyway? Being buff? Physically fit? Being a stereotyped male? Herd conformity?


–adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a man or men: masculine attire.
2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness.
3. Grammar. noting or pertaining to the gender of Latin, Greek, German, French, Spanish, Hebrew, etc., which has among its members most nouns referring to males, as well as other nouns, as Spanish dedo, “finger,” German Bleistift, “pencil.”
4. (of a woman) mannish.
–noun Grammar.
5. the masculine gender.
6. a noun or other element in or marking that gender.

Is there something here you do not understand?

Being masculine implies that you are not trying to hide the fact that you have a penis.

Effeminization, either by choice or by societal imposition does indeed detract from a man's masculinity. End of argument.

In our, that is to imply Western society, the wearing of eyeliner and makeup is effeminate. It is an attempt to mask or hide the masculine features of the face and by association the identity of "male". If you want to break it down, it's like trying to hide your refrigerator by putting up some new curtains over your livingroom windows.

This has distinct and perhaps powerful Lesser Magic implications.

Rule of Thumb here. If you can pull it off and not look like a mook, more power to you. If not, suck it up and accept that your a guy or get some hormones and a boob job.

Nobody likes a gender-fuck.
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#329066 - 05/20/08 05:35 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
MissMina1556 Offline
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Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
This thread is totally confusing me. confused

OK, I need help with this one. I did not know men wore eyeliner. I'm serious. So, if they do wear eyeliner, why do they wear it?

When I look at the pictures right above here, I see the lower picture and at first glance I thought it was a woman. Yes, I have my glasses ON! Is it a young man? eek crazy confused confused
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#329079 - 05/20/08 06:44 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: MissMina1556]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
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Quote:
OK, I need help with this one. I did not know men wore eyeliner. I'm serious. So, if they do wear eyeliner, why do they wear it?

Because they are fruity pirate captains, or possibly pharoahs.


Attachments
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#329089 - 05/20/08 07:12 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: reprobate]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Many a moon ago I used to dye my hair black, used white paint on my face and painted my nails black too.

The women that I used to attract because of this certainly knew I was male.

Never wore eyeliner, for me it was a hint of black eyeshadow to draw attention to my eyes did the trick in a crowded club fixing her with a stare. Never failed for me.

Nothing like this current "emo" or "goth" thing, I suppose they spawned out of the British Gothic sub-culture and grunge intermixed.

It was an adult world and I was a little too young, it was mostly about vanity more than music at the end of it.I was however drawn to the attractive women and the music the "look" I found easy to pull off and didn't see what all the fuss was about.

I no longer wear make-up as I have found my own style as I matured but some people would still consider me a "goth" because I have long hair and still wear black.

In fact I look a little like Wolf Landon, my hair is about as long although a different color.

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#329106 - 05/20/08 09:29 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: reprobate]
Felstorm Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
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Loc: Minnesota.

It is interesting to note that eye makeup was as much about adornment as it was utilitarian.

First it helps absorb sunlight and secondly it kept the flies away.
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#329112 - 05/20/08 09:39 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
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I shave my beard for work and I have never shaved it for a woman. I find women who like beards and tend to keep them around. It works out that way, but now I have to find a job that lets me keep my beard.
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#329133 - 05/20/08 11:00 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
AurEum Offline
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Registered: 11/16/07
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Quote:
Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.

Ok, I'm in shock. I didn't know women like this actually exist, outside of sitcoms that is. I consider myself to be girly and fairly vain, but I wouldn't entertain the thought of wearing makeup to bed or changing my nail polish daily. Hell, I'm thrilled if my manicure makes it a week.

I agree that women do things for ourselves and other women as much as we do it for men (I'm thinking bubble baths and various forms of pampering here). Unless a conversation is overheard about a midnight serenade, I can't fathom why someone would wear makeup to bed. That seems a little more like insecurity than vanity to me.

Maybe us yankee gals are just different.
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#329136 - 05/20/08 11:21 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Discipline Offline
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I had a girlfriend who would paint her toe nails every day, even on days were she stayed home.
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#329155 - 05/21/08 01:21 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: D. Macabre]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: D. Macabre
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
Men have worn make up through history and still do in some tribal cultures. Tell them it's not masculine or manlike in nature.


The difference between you and those natives is that the natives have been using make up as part of century old traditions. For a lot of them it’s a means of survival for hunting and camouflaging themselves from an enemy as well as an intricate part of their tribal ceremonies, again these are century old traditions. They are not like yourself, they are not walking into Wal-Mart and buying a compact of Loreal and putting it on in order to get some attention.


I agree - to me the modern equivalent to the tribal painting of the face would be sports fans painting themselves with the colors of their team or music fans doing it to look like look like their idols.

To me using makeup is not something you can do to enhance your masculinity, and that means that at best you're not looking any less masculine, but I'd say that men who are able to do this are still a very small minority.
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#329163 - 05/21/08 03:48 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Nicolette

Here is an interesting article on one man's opinion of Real Men.


Interesting article; he raises several valid points, although -- as I've said -- anyone who touts actors as champions of masculinity, and then says makeup is immasculine (there is no difference between the two, there is only a difference in the common styling), immediately looks like a complete joke.

Especially when they cheat on their wife, and then have them stroke their ego after getting back together. sick
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#329167 - 05/21/08 04:18 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Look at this way, since people seem to be so fond of using fictional examples.

In atypical Americanized anime culture, most heroes and villains are "bishounen" (with a slightly different meaning than the original Japanese word) -- characters with a mix of distinctively feminine features (more pronounced cheek bones, styled hair, clearer skin), and masculine features (more muscular tone, martial arts abilities, high intelligence, strength, et cetera). A good example would be Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII, or even Walter Doenitz from Hellsing -- including when he's an older man.

The very prefix "bi" in the Japanese language means feminine; however, unless you're completely blind, I doubt anyone thought Sephiroth was a girl at first glance. But it would be idiotic to deny that the character has distinctively feminine features.

The characters are not limp wristed jokes (or Twisted Sister :P), but neither are they Harris Ford knockoffs -- despite the fact that I doubt anyone who frequents these forums has ever seen him without a heavy layer of makeup on, himself.

Another example would be your common fantasy genre of elves and ogres. Only an idiot would make the claim that elves aren't less "masculine" than your common ogre, and yet elves are still pretty damn popular. However, not every incarnation of bishounen or elves is as 'androgynous' as some would like to portray.

The Japanese seem to have it down pretty well (discounting androgynous visual kei bands.. yech), unlike many men who are just as whiny about "prettyboys" as some muscleless geek who cries about the impossible archetype of a bodybuilder, and long for the days of old, like how your common Republican longs for the days of the 50s. You find both using only fictional examples. Funnily enough, neither ever experienced the real thing, and probably wouldn't like it if they did. If I ever heard some slob infront of me play the victim, whining about all the "effeminate pretty boys" stealing all the women and saying that one day, they'd realize their mistake and choose them -- because they're so much better -- I would kick their ass.

You want to see real "hyper-masculinity" at work, head to the Middle East, or a moonshining shack on the side of a mountain. That doesn't mean reject masculinity entirely -- FAR from it, but remember the old saying that you can have too much of a good thing.


As Felstrom said; if it works for you, good. If not, fix it.

Don't try to change the definition.


A friend of mine wears makeup (not eyeliner or blush, and I was never able to tell until he told me), does the whole bleached/spiked Lance Bass-esque crap, and often flaunts his muscular structure with overly tight clothes. He could also probably kick my ass, or come closed to it. But he's not a limp wristed, blubbery joke, and he would never be mistaken for a female. That doesn't mean he doesn't have feminine features.
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#329168 - 05/21/08 04:24 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Well damn, I always thought the Vikings and Black Beard were masculine. I'm so confused now.

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#329169 - 05/21/08 04:25 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You're missing the point entirely.

There are shades of colors, even black and white.

Someone purely masculine -- in the strictest definition of the word -- would probably end up looking and acting like a hairy (possibly tanned) "Bizarro" from Superman.

I doubt a whole lot of women have a Bizarro fetish. But some do.
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#329172 - 05/21/08 04:33 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
So like partly masculine and feminine? We're combinations of the two rather than fall into one extreme or the other? I think that's most people then. Which makes me wonder why masculinity or femininity even matters. I'm not awfully concerned with being one or the other, or even both. Nor do I know many people who even think about it. Then again, I've never been one to favor gender roles or tradition.

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#329173 - 05/21/08 04:41 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
So like partly masculine and feminine? We're combinations of the two rather than fall into one extreme or the other? I think that's most people then.


Exactly.

And I've never met someone hyper-masculine, or hyper-feminine, who wasn't an uninspiring asshole/bitch.

Regardless of them not being "completely" one way, I would sooner envy a professional wrestler, than a limp-wristed emokid, or drag queen.
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#329174 - 05/21/08 04:47 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I agree but it works in reverse also. I'd envy a limp-wristed emo rock star over some run of the mill wrestler wanna-be. :P Who you think gets more? Success is not measured by masculinity in men.

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#329176 - 05/21/08 04:49 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You might prefer the effeminate joke who couldn't hold his own in a mugging, but that's your choice.

Success not being measured by masculinity? Maybe not in the strictest sense of the word, but I don't remember anyone wearing eyeliner being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.
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#329178 - 05/21/08 05:00 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Nor do you see any of them without a clean cut style and a nice wardrobe. A bum off the street is more masculine by definition than all those CEO's combined. During the aristocratic period in Europe an upper class gentlemen would not be caught dead without his makeup and wig. Times change and what defines the upper class and extreme wealth and fortune changes as well. So one day it may be surprising to hear of a man without eyeliner, especially in a position of power. Not saying that is going to happen any time soon. The possibility that something of that nature will happen increases with the passing of time. History has a way to subtly repeat itself.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 05:01 AM)

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#329179 - 05/21/08 05:04 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
You're correct.

Times change, and aesthetics change, but that doesn't mean masculinity has changed -- which is, correct me if I'm wrong -- what the concept of this thread was centred around.
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#329185 - 05/21/08 06:39 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
If success of a man is measured by his masculinity in the strictest sense of the word then, yes, it has. If not, masculinity has not changed and it serves a very minute purpose to fixate on it. So either way it is PO-TATO-OS and potatoes, or if you live in some southern areas it may be taters. I'm trying to make sense of what is being discussed and you helped clear some of it up.

Other than that I honestly can't say now whether it changed or not. If masculinity equated being hairy and unkempt then historically men have willingly emasculated themselves. Which brings me to believe that there is a different definition and image of modern masculinity. If by Websters definition it equates to men and their social nature. Then follows suite that the definition of masculinity changes as does the man and his social nature.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 06:41 AM)

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#329188 - 05/21/08 06:46 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
You think a bum on the street is masculine? Are you kidding? Think about it for a moment. Then re-read this entire discussion. A bum is seriously lacking in several important areas.

Also, it seems as if you're confusing masculinity with attractiveness or fashionable.


Edited by ealaiontoir (05/21/08 06:48 AM)
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#329190 - 05/21/08 06:53 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I was using a bum for exaggerated affect. Of course, I could use Billy Bob Joe who wears a hunting cap and has his beer belly hang over his Texas shaped belt buckle. His muscled biceps covered in something that appears to be carpeting but at closer examination is found to be coarse hair. Leaving the only place for him to tattoo his confederate flag to be the deltoid of the arm. By the smell you can tell he has not changed his underwear in a month and and by the gap-tooh grin you can see he has not brushed in at least a year. There's your masculine man; according to what was described as masculine in this thread. Would you like Billy Bob Joe to give you a kiss?


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 06:54 AM)

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#329193 - 05/21/08 07:09 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Shade Offline
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Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
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Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
There's your masculine man; according to what was described as masculine in this thread.


I'm not trying to be obtuse or contentious but I do not see what you've described being equated with masculinity. Can you point out specifically where in this thread that happened?
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#329194 - 05/21/08 07:10 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir

I can't fathom why someone would wear makeup to bed. That seems a little more like insecurity than vanity to me.


You obviously have not seen my ex girlfriend wake up at 4 o'clock without makeup!
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#329195 - 05/21/08 07:11 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
So like partly masculine and feminine? We're combinations of the two rather than fall into one extreme or the other? I think that's most people then. Which makes me wonder why masculinity or femininity even matters.


Have you even read The Satanic Witch?
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#329202 - 05/21/08 07:34 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Yes, I definitely found that as a distasteful blip in an otherwise great article.

The only way I could rationalize that would be: many times in a couple that gets back together after unfaithfulness the wronged partner perpetually holds a guilt-whip over the other's head, and the author was making it clear this would not be the case.

I think a talk over coffee could have accomplished this as well but hey what do I know whistle
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#329203 - 05/21/08 07:34 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bill_M]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I have not had an inclination to pick that book up yet. Here are my reasons why. Other than the fact that I'm reading a lot of other things at the moment. I don't think I will benefit much from it.

To be honest, I never had trouble with getting what I wanted out of women except for long term commitment. Realizing that while commitment is a nice fantasy it does no exist and is not statistically probable. 4 out 5 marriages go to crap in America, when you get married it's a 50% chance it will go to hell. I'll stick to my frequent flings and get my rocks off. I don't care for commitment and "eternal love" whatever that is. I've never seen or found it, some claim to have it but I always tend to see them loose it.

Some say I'm bitter and heart broken, maybe even mentally disturbed. I disagree, I'm a man hardened by the reality of intimate relationships. I know what I can have for certain and aiming for it helps to concentrate on more important things, like my life and where I'm headed. Women and sex are the little things I partake in along the way. I'm don't claim to be anything special and they just water me down. They leave on their own so I never felt guilty. I enjoy variety far more than anything static and easily get bored with people in general. Then again, most people are generally boring so it's no surprise now is it?

Well that's my say on the matter but I will get to the book, eventually. Maybe I'll find some reason or another that will convince me to start reading it sooner. So far though I have not seen anyone say anything about it that really struck me as something I did not already know.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 07:42 AM)

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#329204 - 05/21/08 07:39 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Shade]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
To address both you and Zaftig:

Being heterosexual and being masculine are not the same. One can be plenty heterosexual but not masculine, and even be effeminate. One is an instinctive mental state, the other is a choice of where we like to bed. They are as unrelated as our deep voice is to our preference for white meat or dark.

Being well-groomed is also fine, but it isn't part of masculinity. Not to say it's a bad thing, obviously even I shave, cut my hair (or shave my head as the case may be), wash my clothes, etc. But this isn't a manly pursuit, it's a requirement of social norms and a requirement of modern women.

The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.

You want to know what a man would look like if he had his way? Look at Vikings, pirates, and mountain men. Men would be far less vain if it weren't for the nagging of women. What little vanity men do have in an all-male environment is more the greed of possession than it is aesthetics. Notice also that for uncivilized men the value of the object is more important than whether it "matches." They just want to move up a social rung.

No doubt you do appreciate it when men make an effort to look nice. But make no mistake, if you didn't have the one thing men are enslaved to we'd laugh at the very idea of it.


There's more but you have the capacity to go back to page one and re-read the thread. smile

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#329208 - 05/21/08 07:50 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I have not had an inclination to pick that book up yet.

Gee, ya don't say?

Quote:
I don't think I will benefit much from it.

I won't argue that.

Quote:
So far though I have not seen anyone say anything about it that really struck me as something I did not already know.

And so far it sounds to me like you don't have much of an idea of what the book is about. Well if you want throw lesser magic completely out the window, fine. Your loss.
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#329209 - 05/21/08 07:59 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bill_M]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Reverend Bill M, you and your reverse psychology. :P Why did you have to pull that one on me? Now I'm going to want to read it more than before. I don't throw lesser magic out the window, I just figured I had a natural affinity to it judging by my success in the real world. I'm sure there's something in there I could learn. Yet, I do what works and what I do works for me. So eh, I'll still get to it eventually, sometime this year(I hope).


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 08:00 AM)

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#329210 - 05/21/08 07:59 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
That was the funniest thing I've read all day. If I could draw, I'd so make a comic of that.



As a side note, you really should read The Satanic Witch -- it is perhaps the most informative piece on Lesser Magic, and II haven't even had the chance to read the book in its entirety.
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#329211 - 05/21/08 08:01 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bruja]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Bruja
That being said, if that man spends more time putting together an ensemble than I do, or spends a very notable amount of time discussing his appearance, ect.... well that does nothing but irritate me.




I have found that there is a general distrust towards men who appear to spend a large amount of time on their appearance. It gives the impression that he is trying to hide something. Women, however, are expected to spend time on their appearance to show that they care. Different standards...not double.


Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (05/21/08 08:02 AM)
Edit Reason: Got lost looking in the mirror.
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#329213 - 05/21/08 08:05 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Shade Offline
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We clearly drew different conclusions concerning Priest Leviathan's post. I'm perfectly content leaving it that way.
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#329214 - 05/21/08 08:06 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Bill_M]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Exactly. I would think it would be wiser to read up on the topic in all applicable areas (science, psychology, maybe even Satanic literature ::gasp::). Then maybe one would be better prepared to start a productive discussion.

I see a theme here. Ask a question. Argue with the answers you receive (note: I said argue, not ask for clarification). Attempt to get others to see how misguided they are and how right you are. Oh, I amost forgot, throw in a bit of condescending statements towards women for good measure.


Edited by ealaiontoir (05/21/08 08:07 AM)
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#329215 - 05/21/08 08:11 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
For the billionth time: Go read "The Satanic Witch." Then read it a second and thrid time. Then perhaps read a few more titles that have been suggested.

Your actions tell others where your priorities lie. If you don't have enough time to read, you're obviously spending your time elsewhere. Which is fine, just don't expect others to hand you the information that they actually took the time to read and apply.

You comment quite frequently about your skills in lesser magic, especially with women and getting what you want from them. Why then are women the topic of so many of your posts? If you are so successful in that area why do you try so hard to label wearing eyeliner as masculine? I don't buy into your little dog and pony show.
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#329216 - 05/21/08 08:13 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
I would think there would be better ways to amend such injustice, rather than kinky pillow talk (which is then published for the entire world to see), but as a virgin, what do I know? grin
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#329218 - 05/21/08 08:25 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
That's always the problem I have with FalloutGod's rants as well.

You can have twenty, thirty, fourty people even come in here, read what he wrote, and reply with "No." yet he will still lack the common sense to even consider the possibility that he could be wrong, making some eye-rolling statement such as "It seems my ideas are wasted on you disagreeable folks!" That being said, I do enjoy his posts from time to time, but the attitude (as well as Reverend Bill's observation; lack of knowledge of important Satanic material) doesn't help in situations like this.


Femininity and masculinity ARE extremely important, naturally, to the human animal. They matter. Both are important to naturally attracting a mate, as well as intimidating any inferior would-be suitors. Women I have noticed in general, will always veer towards the "tough guy", even when everything else about him sucks. The girl who wants a "nice guy" ALWAYS ends up with the dick, and men are rarely attracted to the women who do not keep up their appearance, or work their feminine wiles. This is not my opinion on all the good Witches and Warlocks out there; but the Satanist DOES recognize the difference, DOES recognize that masculinity and femininity ARE an extremely important part of Lesser Magic, (whether those particular individuals have it or NOT) and uses this to their advantage.

The fact is, you can take ANYTHING and make it "subjective". Just like some people can take Satanism, and call themselves a Satanist, when they just simply aren't. I could go ahead and say that all of the herd is a potential Satanist if you look at them from a certain viewpoint, or that subjectively, to myself, beef tastes like chicken and therefore, must be chicken, but it would be bullshit, wouldn't it? The Satanist is a seeker of the truth, which is why the word "believe" is so utterly ghastly to him.

You can "believe" that masculinity is changing, and that it is subjective.

You can "believe" that you are masculine whether or not you inherit masculine properties or not.

But if just "believing" something made it true, we would all be peddling the holy bible, or the koran, or whatever the hell suited our fancy at the time, wouldn't we?

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#329219 - 05/21/08 08:29 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
First, I don't have ponies.

Second, I don't care if people think eyeliner is not masculine. I still like the stuff.

Third, because those are the only ones of mine that you have read?

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#329221 - 05/21/08 08:32 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Point is, this topic is about masculinity, and not eyeliner, or whether one likes it or not. You were arguing that makeup on men, applied in the way you use it, can be subjectively masculine.

If your whole point has been "I don't care, I like it," Let's see an eyeliner thread wink

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#329223 - 05/21/08 08:36 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Darkahn]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
I dunno. Maybe we should both put on eyeliner at the same time and see if it makes us manly enough to understand wink

Other than that, I'm all out.
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#329224 - 05/21/08 08:40 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: TheDegenerate]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
No, Phosis, go back and read again. I'm saying that I don't see how some things are inherently feminine and masculine. It is subjective to time and society as well as perception. If all things relating to beauty are feminine then men have emasculated themselves all throughout history, and willingly at that. What is wrong with that? Does what I say not make sense in the context? Where did I state any of what you said I stated?


Edited by FalloutGod (05/21/08 08:41 AM)

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#329226 - 05/21/08 08:45 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
You just repeated exactly what I stated, that you feel masculinity is subjective, and not already perfectly defined.

Natural masculinity and femininity has been the same for thousands of years, and it hasn't changed. They are specific properties. The gentle curves of a woman, or the rock-hard bodies of men. (simple examples.)


If you want to politely step out of the topic you were so eager to get involved in, and back-peddle towards a different opinion, then do it. I read everything you said perfectly well, and since it has all been argumentative nonsense up to this point, I don't feel the need to spend any more time with it.

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#329243 - 05/21/08 09:37 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
Quote:
Ah, but it is different for women. I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!). I've known women who changed nail polish daily even when no one else was around. I've known plenty of women who disliked camping not because of the hardship but because it was not very good for their vanity.

Ok, I'm in shock. I didn't know women like this actually exist, outside of sitcoms that is. I consider myself to be girly and fairly vain, but I wouldn't entertain the thought of wearing makeup to bed or changing my nail polish daily. Hell, I'm thrilled if my manicure makes it a week.


I agree that women do things for ourselves and other women as much as we do it for men (I'm thinking bubble baths and various forms of pampering here). Unless a conversation is overheard about a midnight serenade, I can't fathom why someone would wear makeup to bed. That seems a little more like insecurity than vanity to me.

Maybe us yankee gals are just different.


Well, I must admit that I am a pretty high maintainance lady. My finger nails and toe nails are groomed and painted daily, my hair is always perfect (although not hard as a rock with spray), I wear make-up to bed more often than not, and I abhor camping without water and electricity because it makes beautification rather difficult. No, I'm not insecure. I know how good I can look and choose to look that way as much as possible.



Edited by Sarah (05/21/08 09:41 AM)
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#329258 - 05/21/08 10:49 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
Quote:
I've known a woman who wore makeup to bed (special night makeup no less!).

Ok, I'm in shock. I didn't know women like this actually exist,



Maybe they do it for the same reason some women wear high heels to bed.

What? blush
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#329269 - 05/21/08 11:24 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Lamia Nin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 169
Loc: The web's center
Originally Posted By: Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz
>> The most primal part of a man has no desire whatsoever to look the way women want him to look. We hate shaving, we don't particularly like haircuts, we only like bathing because it feels good when it's hot, and we only give a shit about clothes because we catch hell if we don't. Find the most dapper man and I will show you a man who sits around in his dirty briefs when no one else is around and if he had a weekend alone wouldn't bother shaving till Monday.<<

I love my shaving ritual. I love my silver English Shaving Co' set.

And I am very particular about my hair.

I love clothes and fashion and enjoy shopping for them and creatively putting ensembles together.

I never sit around like a slob. I might not "put the ensembles together" if I am sitting in the house but I get freshened up and dressed properly every day, even if I am not leaving the house.

And it's not because I think it's how women want me to look. But the fact that women ALWAYS mention how well I dress is a compliment that I like.

I also like the fact that women think it sets me apart from the typical male you just described.

And for those that don't know - no, I am not one of the jolly boys.





I find this description (Thank You Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz)
very appealing in a Gentlemanly way, and certainly quite masculine.

There is a not a fine line between a Cary Grant type of man and an Emo type or Metrosexual.


Masculinity for me seems quite varied, the one thing I know is that you know when you see it, there is no question about it, no wondering.



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#329277 - 05/21/08 11:44 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Lamia Nin]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Originally Posted By: Lamia Nin

There is a not a fine line between a Cary Grant type of man and an Emo type or Metrosexual.


Cary Grant in the role of Rhett Butler for Gone With the Wind is the epitome of gentlemanly masculinity to me smile

You have excellent taste!


Edited by Nicolette (05/21/08 11:47 AM)
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#329279 - 05/21/08 11:52 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
Lamia Nin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 169
Loc: The web's center
Oh Hell Yes Nikkie!

Rhett Butler (Clark Gable or Cary Grant) is a Man of Sexy Proportion! coopdevil

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#329280 - 05/21/08 11:54 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
Quote:
Cary Grant in the role of Rhett Butler for Gone With the Wind is the epitome of gentlemanly masculinity to me smile


I believe you mean Clark Gable , but Cary Grant is certainly no slouch
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#329289 - 05/21/08 12:12 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: C.F. Kane]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
In my excitement, I did confuse the two! Whoops blush ah well.

Start bringing up those old time gents and I get all in a flutter laugh
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#329321 - 05/21/08 03:36 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
gypsy Offline
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Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Quote:
I like my black eyeliner. My foundation and my eye shadow. Does it take away from my masculinity to wear make up? What the hell is masculinity anyway? Being buff? Physically fit? Being a stereotyped male? Herd conformity?


Oh My Goth. smirk

I love it when people cry out about herd conformity, particularly those who play so hard at trying to be different and end up surrendering their uniqueness to another group identity.
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#329340 - 05/21/08 05:35 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
I'm saying that I don't see how some things are inherently feminine and masculine. It is subjective to time and society as well as perception. If all things relating to beauty are feminine then men have emasculated themselves all throughout history, and willingly at that.

Having slogged through this (extremely interesting, thanks all!) thread it is this post I have decided to jump on. Sorry Falloutgod, it's nothing personal.

You can argue until you are blue in the face that masculinity is subjective but it simply isn't so. Masculinity is masculinity, and femininity is femininity. You may wish to debate whether this or that expresses masculinity (in particular your beloved eye shadow) but ultimately masculinity is and always will be objective - it is what characterises a man. Your argument that this has been different in various periods in history does not hold up to scrutiny, and it certainly doesn't apply to now either.

Give me ONE example of a society in history where men as a norm have taken on what we consider exclusively feminine roles. I'm wracking my brains and I'm stumped. Sure, there are tons of examples (some cited above) where particular actions/fetishes/activities/styles that we consider female have been considered characteristic of a man or not, but what a man is has never been disputed even in nominally matriarchal societies (and there are precious few of those).

Face paint? Sure, to this day native tribes are using it, but they're not doing it to look pretty, they're using it as part of a tradition of expressing their masculinity. Tattoos? Same thing. Men wearing make up in the French court and dressing like fops? They weren't trying to look pretty, they were following a style of dress that was linked to men, and you better not piss one of them off or they'll happily duel you to the death for besmirching their honour, again a masculine trait. Men wearing skirts in Scotland and calling them kilts? Again, a style of dress that a majority of men subscribed to, thus linking it to the normative perception of masculinity.

To reverse this, you think the Spartans (one of the most rigid and male-centric societies in history) were walking around going "Hey, check out my abs and tan - I look hawt!"? No? Why not? Muscles and a healthy colour are symbolic of manliness are they not? They didn't do this because as Leviathan and others have pointed out, the modern concept of male attractiveness being linked to athleticism is extremely new. It probably wouldn't have occurred to them that their six packs were attractive, they just had them by virtue of the very vigorous and exercise-heavy lives they led.

To use an extreme example, if a pink tutu became widely considered a male style of dress men could wear it AND NOT BE ANY LESS MASCULINE. The wearing of an article of clothing doesn't change what they are.

Unless the genders themselves change enough to no longer be what we consider male and female, masculinity and femininity will always remain separate. Certainly the roles that men and women play in society may change over time (as they have considerably over the last 100 years), but we will still ultimately be two separate sexes and our natures will be the same.

So, by all means, say you think wearing eye liner is attractive, that it suits you, that they women seem to like it, that it needn't be something exclusively feminine - whatever. But don't try and argue that because you don't feel it's not an effeminate affectation that in reality "all masculinity is subjective".
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"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

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#329390 - 05/21/08 09:34 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Muse]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Ok, I do make mistakes once in a blue moon wink Thanks for sharing your perspective, I really do appreciate it.
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#329402 - 05/21/08 10:22 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
Oh, not a mistake, you just didn't know that little tidbit about me! No harm done. smile
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Hear Adult Fairy Tales, Short Stories, Poetry, and more! coopdevil
Twilight Tales with Muse only on Radio Free Satan!!
(Currently on hiatus while I attend to grad school, but I have every intention of bringing the show back when the time is right!)


The holy trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

"Does anyone ever realize life while they are living it? Every, every minute?"
- Emily, Our Town, by Thornton Wilder


"Life's like a ballgame. You gotta take a swing at whatever comes along before you wake up and find it's the ninth inning." ~Vera (Ann Savage) in Detour





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#329434 - 05/22/08 02:49 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Scion]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
Um... This is what I was trying to communicate Scion. crazy Maybe I miss-used the word subjective or phrased something wrong. I don't recall stating that masculinity is subjective. I was saying that things that are attributed to masculinity differ. They differ by culture, time period and environment. Unless I did not understand you correctly and we are on two different pages.

Here's a side note about me if you are curious enough to read on. While I do wear an atrocious amount of black and dark clothing that's not what I always wear. You would not see me wear my eyeliner with my faded Jimi Hendrix shirt and ripped up jeans. Not with my preppy polo shirts and khaki pants. I mix and match to gain whatever effect I desire. If I fall into any group it would be more as a poser than anything else.

Just because I like eyeliner does not mean I'm full blown goth/emo/whatever. So most people who cater to one scene or another don't like me. I mingle with their proclaimed social enemies. Well, they would not like me if they actually caught on. Which doesn't seem to happen as they all hang around different places. It's great. Surprised? I could have saved it but I imagine most people will forget by the time they ever get a chance to meet me in person. smile

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#329453 - 05/22/08 06:31 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Speaking of men who are masculine, and men that choose a different look. There are many men right here on LttD, in my eyes, that look and act like true men. No makeup, nothing to prove, quick witted, intelligent beyond comprehension, and yes, they have their looks. Some men on here do not have their real pictures, so I can only go on what they post. Those men that post very intelligent essays and writings are what attracts my eye. Then there are a couple of men on here, that have their real picture posted. Well, at least I think it is their real picture. I have been attracted to certain men because of their picture and because of their intelligence. Also, I can't forget confidence. Certain men on here are so confident, I read whatever they write because it's true pleasure for me.

Above there has been mention of Clark Gable and Cary Grant. Just to name two.

In the entertainment field. There are many actors that exude manliness. Robert Redford. Clint Eastwood. Jack Nicholson. Spencer Tracy. My all time favorite, Sean Connery. Those are just some from the top of my head. There are many more that are truly good looking men, and intellingent men, and men that I'm sure never wore eyeliner, except if it were in a movie role.

The subject of this thread is, "Modern Masculinity". I don't see the need for modern masculinity. Let a man, be a man. In my mind, when a male chooses to wear makeup, in any way, it's their choice, but a choice I don't understand.

Give me that 5 o'clock shadow anyday, with no eyeliner! Give me a strong mind and character, give me a smile, through that beard. Give me a man!!
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#329481 - 05/22/08 09:15 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod

Second, I don't care if people think eyeliner is not masculine. I still like the stuff.


As a substance, eyeliner is neither masculine or feminine. It is just paint. It is a tool.

It becomes masculine or feminine depending on how, when and most importantly, WHY you choose to apply it.

It is the WHY that matters. It is the WHY that people around you will react to that is why they will see you as emasculating yourself for wearing it.

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#329510 - 05/22/08 12:19 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: FalloutGod]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
I don't think we are saying the same thing - in your previous post you said:

Quote:
If all things relating to beauty are feminine then men have emasculated themselves all throughout history, and willingly at that.


My point is that NO, men haven't emasculated themselves throughout history because they have done things that we today consider feminine (for the reasons I gave). If you don't see anything to disagree with in that then fine, but the way I read your post (admittedly quite late at night right before bed, never the best time) was that you felt masculinity was subjective. Maybe my brain edited some words out or something. smile

I never suggested you were a goth/emo/whatever, you seem happy and secure in your identity and projection of it and clearly that is what matters most to you (just as long as you don't look like this guy).
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

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#329530 - 05/22/08 03:24 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Scion]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
Quote:
(just as long as you don't look like this guy).



Now, that's good stuff!

I, however, have a fondness for pink shirts; don't find them to be gay (whatever that means with regards to clothing,) or feminine, look great in them (sans the popped collar,) and wear them nearly every chance I get!
_________________________
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"Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." -Mark Twain

"Maybe I'll make some teeth and whiskers." -C.F. Kane


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#329537 - 05/22/08 04:43 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: C.F. Kane]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
I like pink clothes a lot too, and pink has had a big resurgence in the UK over the last few years (particularly in summer).

It's not the pink that's making that guy a douche though, that really is the least of his worries.
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#329539 - 05/22/08 04:59 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Scion]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Pink is fine - to a certain degree

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VWVZq3Guipg
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#329555 - 05/22/08 06:51 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Shade]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2196
Originally Posted By: Shade
Funny, I've never had any complaints when I wore a man's dress shirt. Granted, I was wearing nothing else at the time. grin


Woman that wears a man's dress shirt with nothing else at the time is very feminine and very hot! coopdevil

Man that wears a man's dress shirt with nothing else at the time is very feminine and very hot.......












































.......For people into dudes like that.
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#329646 - 05/23/08 06:21 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Callier]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Shade, you are correct about the man's dress shirt. I love those. They are comfortable, and just long enough. You unbutton the front to the right point, you roll up the sleeves, and then you sit at the kitchen table in the morning and have a cup of coffee, with your guest of course.

Now, on the to kid in the pink shirt, and the baseball cap. He sure had some nice muscles. Pink is coming back in for men, but, for me, I can't see it on a man. Maybe a younger man, but not some guy in my age range.
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#329651 - 05/23/08 07:08 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: MissMina1556]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Granted pink is not the most masculine of colors, but men who were it are usually very confident. That in and of itself is attractive. ... I guess it doesn't hurt that pink is one of my favorite colors too smile
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#329668 - 05/23/08 08:51 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: AurEum]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
The men that I have seen out and about wearing pink have an air about them that they are screaming for attention - the type that is desperate to be checked out by every woman and itching for a fight from every man.

I am sure Scion and Exsanguinate would be an exception; this is what I have observed in my present locale.
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#329671 - 05/23/08 09:07 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: Nicolette
The men that I have seen out and about wearing pink have an air about them that they are screaming for attention - the type that is desperate to be checked out by every woman and itching for a fight from every man.

I am sure Scion and Exsanguinate would be an exception; this is what I have observed in my present locale.


Them's fighting words, put em up!

wink

At least I can sleep safely that in wearing pink I'm not making any confusing statements about my sexuality. Given that the resurgence of pink seemed to start off in the trailer trash portion of the UK first before filtering through to the rest of the population, I think I probably agree with you.


Edited by Scion (05/23/08 09:08 AM)
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#329674 - 05/23/08 09:29 AM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Scion]
Nicolette Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 192
Loc: Deutschland
Originally Posted By: Scion
Given that the resurgence of pink seemed to start off in the trailer trash portion of the UK first before filtering through to the rest of the population, I think I probably agree with you.


Do you perhaps speak of the dreaded... chavs?!?!

Oh no!

Hehe, yes I just got back from being stationed in the UK; I used to live about 30 minutes from Cambridge laugh

I think perhaps the ones I have seen wearing it may be cashing in on the trend, and behaving in such a manner because they innately feel like they have something to prove.

Or it could be a dipshit is a dipshit, pink shirt or no, and much of the population is decidedly dipshitty.
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#329717 - 05/23/08 12:39 PM Re: Modern Masculinity [Re: Nicolette]
C.F. Kane Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 257
Loc: Bat City
Quote:
Or it could be a dipshit is a dipshit, pink shirt or no, and much of the population is decidedly dipshitty.


All Hail the Truth!


My use of pink shirts is certainly no cry for attention, though it does occasionally prompt fucktards to assume things about my sexuality. Assume away...I know where it goes!

It has been said that it takes a real man to wear pink. Now, I don't know if that's really true, as evidenced by our douche bag earlier in this thread. But it is true that one shouldn't push the guys in pink too far, lest you catch a beat down from a "homo." wink

It is, ultimately, a color that when donned helps accentuate the confidence that I already have.

I am to be married soon, and it will be in a white linen suit with a pink dress shirt. Directly after that, I intend to have sex with my bride, where I will STILL be dressed in pink. Now, if that's a sexual identity crisis, well brothers and sisters, I am thoroughly F-ing confused!
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