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#329890 - 05/24/08 08:15 AM Censorship - Where To Draw The Line
Loupy Offline
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Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Some forms of censored behavior such as walking butt naked in the streets is understandable. Yes I know. We all could turn up naked in Africa where the tribes are and stroll naked there, but I don't think anyone from there are here, if the case may be otherwise correct me if needed be. And yes, I know there are beaches that'll allow nudity, just for clarity sake, as the point I'm making may seem obvious but since obvious is relative...

Forbidding a five year to wear mini-skirts, make-up & high heels is also understandable, as the consequences of said acts are irrefutable.

Since they are trying the banning of films, music releases, but that isn,t gonna happen so soon, if you agree that the messenger is to blame when something happens to a kid who listens to this or that music, watches this or that film, plays this or that video-game and go off on a killing spree, I will have to strongly disagree,It is just that they don't put on the tabloids that a Britney Spear's fan jump down a bridge because "oh she did it again!".

There are censorship everywhere, some are necessary, others disposable. I will not mention all forms of censorship here otherwise there will be nothing left for discussion so I trust these two examples should suffice.


So what are your thoughts on censorship and on the kinds of censorship that wasn't mentioned?

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#329893 - 05/24/08 08:25 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
Cel Offline


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 127
I am almost totally against censorship of any kind. It is not society's place to take care of everyones children. That is the main reason censorship exists, they don't want children to see or hear certain things. To that I say screw that.

If people don't want their children to see something that is on them, the rest of us shouldn't have to find ways around the censors because of it. As to clothing only the parents should be able to make such a call, again it isn't up to anyone else.

So to me I think censorship is a bad thing that should be totally done away with. Leave the responsibility with those who should have it, the parents and family of the children.

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#329898 - 05/24/08 08:37 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
I'll answer if you can give me short, coherent answers to the following questions.

What, exactly, is censorship?
Why is censorship bad?
How does this topic relate to Satanism?
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#329899 - 05/24/08 08:38 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3580
Loc: Calgary
The real problem with blaming, say, a video game for bad behavior, is a lack of effective study that goes in behind the scenes. Most studies about violent video games suggest that it does not promote bad behaviour; a "well, duh" observation in my eyes, but shocking to some out there. It may inspire people who are predisposed to violence to commit those acts, but why take something like that away from MILLIONS, over a few isolated incidents, most of which will eventually be proven were a result of something else entirely?

If you as me, the censorship stint in the nineties concerning the "Parental Advisory" warnings, as well as Jack Thompsons crusade against Rockstar, is nothing but good old fashioned good-guy badge polishing. What better way to play the hero then to say you are in it for "the children?"

As far as censorship goes, we have the internet now. Unless little Billy has access to a Visa, he won't have the means to, say, order an X rated video game online. Because these safe, childproofing methods exist, I don't see a problem with company's getting more risque with their media endeavors. On the same token, I don't think it is WRONG for there to be an ESRB rating, and for a kid to walk into the store and have to present ID to buy an "M" rated game, or an "R" rated movie. The parents are the ones, ultimately, who will decide what their children are doing, so I think it is up to them to protect the kids...and not up to some wanker trying to pass a bill to ban video game characters from smoking cigarettes.

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#329911 - 05/24/08 09:26 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Originally Posted By: Loupy

Forbidding a five year to wear mini-skirts, make-up & high heels is also understandable, as the consequences of said acts are irrefutable.


A responsible parent would not allow this, I am unsure that this constitutes censorship at all or has anything remotely to do with it.

I am unsure of the "consequences" you make a reference to, perhaps you should spell it out.
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#329912 - 05/24/08 09:28 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Loupy
and on the kinds of censorship that wasn't mentioned?


I think we should discuss the kinds of censorship that was not mentioned once it is mentioned. Satanism is about reality after all, so if you have specific cases of censorship let's discuss those.

I think not many people are pro censorship in general, but most have opinions in specific matters. In general I think even "free" societies tend to censor too much because the herd needs reassurance that their world is safe - which doesn't really help you much, because if you ever come up with anything that in my view really should be censored I can always claim that it didn't fall within my "in general" smile
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#329929 - 05/24/08 12:00 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: reprobate]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Originally Posted By: reprobate
I'll answer if you can give me short, coherent answers to the following questions.

What, exactly, is censorship?
Why is censorship bad?
How does this topic relate to Satanism?


To me censorships are rules.
Not always necessarily bad.
I think it related to Satanism because there must be a balance, if you're looking at society as a whole, as the example I gave, who would want a naked mad man running on the streets? It comes straight down to responsibility to the responsible in practice, not in theory.

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#329930 - 05/24/08 12:08 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: verszou]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
I don't want people to censor what I want to watch & I don't want people censoring what I want to hear but I do like the fact that there are rules, other word for censorship as I have just used in another reply. Without it, it would be chaotic, important point is where to draw the line.

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#329933 - 05/24/08 12:16 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: verszou]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Another one that came to mind: in some shops they have a sign saying: "no more than 1 school children at the time"... which is the type of censorship I can understand otherwise they'd wreck the place.

Come to me and tell me I can't buy an original album for example because censorship won't allow it and you'll hear a different story.

Who are the heads of censorship anyways? A bunch of guys sitting around a table drinking coffee or is it "the people"? Can't be "the people" because they just do what they are told on TV, so who is it. Hmmm.

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#329940 - 05/24/08 12:43 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: TheDegenerate]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Quote:
The real problem with blaming, say, a video game for bad behavior, is a lack of effective study that goes in behind the scenes. Most studies about violent video games suggest that it does not promote bad behaviour; a "well, duh" observation in my eyes, but shocking to some out there. It may inspire people who are predisposed to violence to commit those acts, but why take something like that away from MILLIONS, over a few isolated incidents, most of which will eventually be proven were a result of something else entirely?


And one would think that in this day and age people's mentalities would have changed, after facing facts proving that the video games & perhaps reclusive natures have nothing to do with the promotion of bad behaviour, i.e. going out there and doing what seen on game. Give me a break, those who would are one in a million and inspire people whom with or without video games could be predisposed to violence.

Quote:
On the same token, I don't think it is WRONG for there to be an ESRB rating, and for a kid to walk into the store and have to present ID to buy an "M" rated game, or an "R" rated movie.


I don't think it is wrong for kids to have to prove that they're old enough to do whatever that requires him prove to be so either.

This is what I'm saying, where to draw the line with censorship? It is like some kinda love, some kinda hate. laugh

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#329942 - 05/24/08 12:54 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Cel]
Loupy Offline
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Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
You are linking censorship exclusively to children. There are a lot of material censored to adults as well. Watch the making of of some Horror films for another example of censorship not involving exactly children. All the stuff that were censored and not shown in the theaters.

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#329962 - 05/24/08 03:17 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
Hiding your children from the world eliminates the need to accept the responsibility of being parents to them.

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#329966 - 05/24/08 03:41 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11648
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Loupy
To me censorships are rules.

I think you'll need to start with a much stronger definition if this discussion is going to go anywhere, which is why I think Warlock Reprobrate was right in asking for one. By your definition, something like "Players collect $200 when their token passes 'Go'" is cernsorship. Obviously, you need to elaborate.
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#329979 - 05/24/08 05:19 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: shadowraven213]
Ygraine Offline

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Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2851
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Loupy

Forbidding a five year to wear mini-skirts, make-up & high heels is also understandable, as the consequences of said acts are irrefutable.


A responsible parent would not allow this, I am unsure that this constitutes censorship at all or has anything remotely to do with it.

I am unsure of the "consequences" you make a reference to, perhaps you should spell it out.


yeah, me too.

I get the kind of creepy feeling you are implying that a child playing dress up is asking for it. While in no way on the topic of censorship, it does give a rather questionable insight into your mindset.

As for censoring media, I have no problems with rating systems or preventing minors from access to adult material. I am adult and I can buy what I want.

If theaters can make money at something they will show it. It is the dollar and rarely censorship that determines what plays where and who sells what.

I also believe in private enterprise. If a business owner decides he doesn't want to sell something in his store, that is his right.

So what is the problem?

Y~
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#329999 - 05/24/08 06:39 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Ygraine]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I think the problem would relate to who gets to make the decision to censor. Who draws the lines. We should ask why they are so concerned with what others do. From what source do they draw their moral inspiration for such concern?

I think the efforts would be better directed at educating parents to teach their children to educate themselves.

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#330211 - 05/25/08 04:31 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Ygraine]
AdventureCat Offline


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 118
Loc: North East England (UK)
Originally Posted By: Ygraine

yeah, me too.

I get the kind of creepy feeling you are implying that a child playing dress up is asking for it. While in no way on the topic of censorship, it does give a rather questionable insight into your mindset.

The word irrefutable was what got me. I'm sure a lot of parents on here would be quite capable of making sure that nobody did anything untoward to their child, regardless of what the child was wearing.

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#330214 - 05/25/08 05:23 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Bill_M]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Something I saw on day time TV got me thinking about this. There are several definitions on the dictionary of the word "censorship", the closest to what I understand of it is:

1. counterintelligence achieved by bann...yn: censoring] ...even though I do think the word enemy used on the definition is much too strong.

I'm not saying anything against or in favour of censorship because that'd have to largely depend on the case in particular. If anything I'm leaning more towards being in favour of censorship in general without mentioning any example, as otherwise the world would be in total anarchic chaos.

Someone mentioned the Parental Advisory note on music CDs in the 90s, and I believe in operation still to date... I might just do a little research on who they are.

Obviously censorship is applied in all different areas and no one is talking about any area specifically but I'd welcome any thoughts. Are you in favour or against censorship and to what degree, any experience you'd like to share as to why you've come to take that position? Any more examples other than the ones given?

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#330223 - 05/25/08 06:45 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Ygraine]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Thanks for your reply. It makes it easier when one is more straight forward. That's what I like in the posts I've read by yourself, straight forwardness.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a little girl trying on her mom's stuff.... at home. I tend to be a bit blunt sometimes. It is another thing when she wants to go out down the streets wearing stuff that one would wear in a night-club- places where minors are not even allowed in. I agree censoring cases such as these, to protect the ones you love, even though it'd be likely that it'd be a little too late if came to this scenario. Kids should be kids and parents should be parents, not just breeders.


Hope that helped to clarify that part.

As for media censoring though, as an adult, I should be able to watch, listen to what I want. How much material does not get the approval to be even distributed because Satan knows who did not deem it acceptable, more often than not, morally acceptable?

As I've mentioned previously, censorship is a broad term, one would need to dissect it, case by case... draw the line somewhere.

Again, as for the media, no, I don't think it is "right" that it is up to third parties to decide what everyone else can or cannot listen to or view. It should be up to the parent in case of kids to determine because people are different... but then again, what would become of the kids whose parents are complete wackos?

I suppose the Big Brother has its uses, I just think it is time for more individual freedom, with or without their Parental Adviser's stickers...

In the case of private business, I strongly agree with your opinion, but unfortunately the owners of certain places such as bars and clubs in places in the USA & in some places in Europe, have to abide by non smoking bans. Another example where a line could be drawn considering we are speaking of private properties.

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#330227 - 05/25/08 07:00 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: AdventureCat]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Originally Posted By: AdventureCat
Originally Posted By: Ygraine

yeah, me too.

I get the kind of creepy feeling you are implying that a child playing dress up is asking for it. While in no way on the topic of censorship, it does give a rather questionable insight into your mindset.

The word irrefutable was what got me. I'm sure a lot of parents on here would be quite capable of making sure that nobody did anything untoward to their child, regardless of what the child was wearing.



I have elaborated on that example on posts above this one, which is all it was, an example. Not particularly the one I was interested in discussing by the way, but it was an easy one.

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#330268 - 05/25/08 11:17 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
Please, stop saying "censorship" when you mean "restraint under rules".

Censorship means that there is a censor who decides what can be said.

Most folks here will tell you:
Do we need restraint under rules? Yes, no brainer.
Do we need censors to tell us what we are permitted to say and do before we are allowed to do it? No.


Edited by reprobate (05/25/08 11:32 PM)
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#330288 - 05/26/08 05:19 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: reprobate]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
I have never heard this term before "restraint under rules" but I'll look into it regardless of understanding some of the examples mentioned by myself and others, as censorship indeed.

Parental Advisory used by media I see as censorship.

When they won't play certain films on TV, I see that also as censorship.

When a kid is given a curfew, I see that as censorship.

Again, I'm not attacking nor defending the idea, just merely speculating if in some areas there couldn't be more freedom for individual decisions.

Would you give an example of what I see as censorship that you see as restraint under rules?

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#330296 - 05/26/08 06:37 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
AdventureCat Offline


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 118
Loc: North East England (UK)
Originally Posted By: Loupy

Parental Advisory used by media I see as censorship.

When they won't play certain films on TV, I see that also as censorship.

When a kid is given a curfew, I see that as censorship.

Again, I'm not attacking nor defending the idea, just merely speculating if in some areas there couldn't be more freedom for individual decisions.

Would you give an example of what I see as censorship that you see as restraint under rules?

The wikipedia definition of censorship is "the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful or sensitive, as determined by a censor". This is pretty much what I intuitively think of censorship as being.

So, I'd say that a curfew isn't censorship, it's a rule prohibiting a certain action. Also, it's debatable whether parental advisory stickers totally fall into the category of censorship. The albums aren't completely being censored, they're just being restricted to people over 17 and people under 17 who have parents who are prepared to let them have them.

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#330298 - 05/26/08 06:39 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
"Restraint under rules" is not a term. It's a phrase that means, broadly, everything you're talking about.

"Censorship", on the other hand, IS a term that means something more precise than what you've been using it to mean.

I'm not really interested in what you "see as" censorship. I'm only interested in seeing how you can refine the topic to be something that we can actually talk productively about in this thread.

"Does society need rules y/n" is too broad to be worth my time here.

That's all you're going to get out of me in this thread.
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#330299 - 05/26/08 06:42 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
The parental advisory stickers are laughable, because they just signal to the kids which CDs are "cool," and because they've been known to get slapped on certain CDs prematurely or undeservedly (Frank Zappa's "Jazz from Hell" got one, even though it doesn't have "explicit lyrics"---indeed, it has no lyrics at all!)

I certainly don't like it when they won't play certain films on TV, or they snip out certain scenes (whether for content or for length), or they give them that silly dubbing when they say naughty words.

A kid being given a curfew is not "censorship" under the standard definition. And, up to a certain age, children need curfews, as set by their parents. If they want to petition their government, practice a religion, or speak freely, they'll just have to do it at home, come 11:30 wink. I'm not as enthusiastic when it comes to curfews set by the local area or county, though I can fully understand why they have them and how they can certainly come in handy.
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#330321 - 05/26/08 09:45 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Parental Advisory is more of a disclaimer than anything else.

The cable channels have their standards of what their channel is willing to display. HBO would show you far more than cartoon network because of their level of entertainment. That is not censorship, that is understanding your audience.

Curfew is not censorship, the policy makers are not implementing a curfew so children can't see night clawers and drunken people, but to get children off the streets during hours where children are more prone to attacks and mischief. Right or wrong on such a policy is not in question here, but it is definitely not a form of censorship.

A form of censorship would be the policies enforced by Woodrow Wilson and John Adams enacted to keep opposition from talking negative about their administrations.

>>Would you give an example of what I see as censorship that you see as restraint under rules?

Everything you just listed.
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#330357 - 05/26/08 02:28 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: ]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
As a free-thinking individual rules imposed upon me could be equated to ownership.

As a member of a society rules could be equated to an imposed state of respect, because those rules are agreed upon by the majority.

In our society those rules are decided by those who vote for them. And, unfortunately, everyone who votes is not necessarily guided by logic.

Promote self-education & there is no need for censorship or rules. promote the concept of individuality and there is no need for security, because we can self-police. If someone is harmful to you or those you care about, stop them. YOU are responsible.

Censorship is a means to control (or psychologically insert the concept of control into) speech. If you think your language needs to be controlled you will "watch what you say". In other words, you won't say things that you think will offend other people, i.e. political correctness. Therefore you learn to censor yourself. At that point you are being controlled psychologically.

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#330360 - 05/26/08 02:37 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
Rules imposed on others is an expression of fear.

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#330389 - 05/26/08 05:08 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: ]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I suppose I should've read your signature before posting that... because in our society the alpha personalities are irrelevant, from what I can tell. We base much of our interaction on the invented concept of money. Money can be inherited. Animal societies put less importance on possessions maybe? Or perhaps money IS humanities alpha system? I really hope that's not the case but it apparently must be if that's the system that exists...

But back to unstable leaders, then that must be a reflection of our unstable nature?

I was specifically referring to people who care. The stupid (the ignorant who refuse to self-educate) can die in their own filth.

You're absolutely correct about the fear comment. I was wrong about that, there are many other reasons for rules to occur.

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#330391 - 05/26/08 05:13 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
H2onE2 Offline
Banned Twit

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 7
Satan people are getting the kick off myspace. I was kicked off three times until I just gave up. When I get my hand on the myspace fXXXers I am going to pitchfork them.




Edited by Ygraine (05/26/08 05:26 PM)
Edit Reason: No evidence you are "Satan people"

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#330395 - 05/26/08 05:30 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: H2onE2]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2851
Loc: Florida
The above post was an excuse to promote some weirdness I do not understand beyond that it has nothing to do with Satanism.

Furthermore, as much as we may bitch about myspace and censorship we agree to certain codes of conduct when we volunteer to use the service. File your gripes under "beggars can't be choosers" and create a new profile like everyone else.

Y~
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#330397 - 05/26/08 05:35 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Ygraine]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 7000
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Methinks sites created by actual Satanists are hassle-free...considering they don't promote illegal activities, rip off other people's stuff and are put together in a responsible manner,
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#330429 - 05/26/08 08:37 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
FalloutGod Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566


Draw the line? How about we just toss the damn concept out the window? Seriously, no need to draw a line then or to know where.

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#330465 - 05/26/08 11:43 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: FalloutGod]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
laugh That video just about sums it all, thanks!

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#330467 - 05/26/08 11:58 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: reprobate]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't bang it all in the censorship basket, or perhaps it's a semantics matter, but as far as media for instance is concerned, that's what it is they do, they censor, whether you, user Discipline or anyone else arguing for the argument's sake would like to admit to or not.

By the way, perhaps I'll too depart from this thread now, everyone or most, seem to be getting really heated about it, as if the topic was like ants in their underpants.

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#330500 - 05/27/08 03:47 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: son of death
As a free-thinking individual rules imposed upon me could be equated to ownership.

As a member of a society rules could be equated to an imposed state of respect, because those rules are agreed upon by the majority.

In our society those rules are decided by those who vote for them. And, unfortunately, everyone who votes is not necessarily guided by logic.

Promote self-education & there is no need for censorship or rules. promote the concept of individuality and there is no need for security, because we can self-police. If someone is harmful to you or those you care about, stop them. YOU are responsible.

Censorship is a means to control (or psychologically insert the concept of control into) speech. If you think your language needs to be controlled you will "watch what you say". In other words, you won't say things that you think will offend other people, i.e. political correctness. Therefore you learn to censor yourself. At that point you are being controlled psychologically.


Rolls on the floor, kicking his legs in the air screaming "No, no more, please, please!" attempting to breath through debilitating gales of laughter

Think yourself lucky that Ravenhael decided to grace you with a cogent answer to something as illogical and plain stupid as that post. Methinks you should log off from your computer and head into the woods to find some survivalist community, you'll probably fit in right at home there with their "rules are death" philosophy.
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#330501 - 05/27/08 03:55 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
Queen Shiba Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1395
Loc: USA
I agree with Scion! This was the most idiotic post. I couldn't follow anything.

Geesshh. You better bring matches so you can start your campfire. No censorhip in the woods is there?
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#330504 - 05/27/08 04:02 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
.....Only to be eaten by a wild and rabid badger.

Oh the irony! smile
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#330507 - 05/27/08 04:11 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: ]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I wasn't aware that animals used objects as currency. That's very interesting to me - a new topic to research! I suppose I have noticed how my ferret hordes his treasures...

One could suggest that animals earn everything they have in their possession. They take it, make it, find it or kill it themselves. So the only reason for us to obey law made by those who haven't earned their currency (inheritance, for example) is force monopoly or personal (moral) agreement. So do we respect the force monopoly, agree with its reasoning or fear it? Christian obedience stems from fear of Hell or desire of Heaven, to the point that they usually seem to come to the conclusion that people who don't believe in those concepts are destined for immorality.

Maybe it boils down to: all rules are an expression of desire or respect or fear, since those are the primary drives of EVERY creature. Do animals respect? Is respect an evolution of fear?

Do animals displace their leaders when the majority disagree with them? We certainly don't. We follow unstable pack leaders. I'm not saying we're not animals, but I definitely see how obeying people we don't respect has separated us from NATURAL law. Yes that is how life is. But does that mean we should accept control by leaders we don't respect? Or only leaders we fear? If that's the case then we might as well all be fundamentalists or fascists.

You mentioned how impossible my suggestions were, but without idealism what's the point of existing? Better to believe & stagnate versus conceptualize & actualize? What about goals? Besides, if we are individuals then wouldn't a state of non-government (Anarchism) be part of evolving & maturing as a society? Natural law should be sufficient, it's part of what we are.

Also, I don't seem to remember referring to any of the ideas I've expressed as Satanic... I'm learning about something that seems to make sense to me, I never claimed to BE a Satanist OR otherwise. As well as mixing these ideas with anything, I'm only interested in discussion regarding the inspection of a set of brilliant ideas & how they relate to the world from the perspective of those who've dedicated themselves to understanding those ideas. I'm not sure how I've offended you by postulating. Sorry.

I never went to Berkeley.

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#330510 - 05/27/08 04:26 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Originally Posted By: son of death
Natural law should be sufficient, it's part of what we are.

I never claimed to BE a Satanist OR otherwise.


Modern society is not based on Natural law.

Are you a Satanist?
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#330517 - 05/27/08 05:37 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: shadowraven213]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I know modern society isn't based on natural law, but shouldn't it be? What's the point of even having a legal system if the punishment doesn't fit the crime?

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#330544 - 05/27/08 08:32 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3976
Loc: The Deep South
Originally Posted By: son of death
One could suggest that animals earn everything they have in their possession. They take it, make it, find it or kill it themselves. So the only reason for us to obey law made by those who haven't earned their currency (inheritance, for example) is force monopoly or personal (moral) agreement.


Inheritance also exists in the natural world, since the offspring of the alpha leader have the most probabilities of become leaders when they reach maturity. Some times the leader of the pack secures his cubs' inheritance by killing the offspring of other males and fighting any possible competitors.

Quote:
Do animals displace their leaders when the majority disagree with them? We certainly don't. We follow unstable pack leaders. I'm not saying we're not animals, but I definitely see how obeying people we don't respect has separated us from NATURAL law. Yes that is how life is. But does that mean we should accept control by leaders we don't respect? Or only leaders we fear? If that's the case then we might as well all be fundamentalists or fascists.


Animals don't elect their leaders or follow them because they respect them or because there is a majority that agrees with the leadership. Animals have the same rule than us humans... they obey the leader because doing the opposite usually results in injury or death. In all cases the leader has the power to crush disobedience, either by biting the offender himself or having an armed force at his disposal.

Quote:
You mentioned how impossible my suggestions were, but without idealism what's the point of existing? Better to believe & stagnate versus conceptualize & actualize? What about goals? Besides, if we are individuals then wouldn't a state of non-government (Anarchism) be part of evolving & maturing as a society? Natural law should be sufficient, it's part of what we are.


The problem with Anarchism is that is based in the idea that everybody will be responsible and intelligent enough as to rule himself. You said "if we are individuals" and the problem is not everyone is an individual. An immense part of mankind is composed by people too stupid or too lazy to govern themselves. Herds need a herder, hence the necessity for leaders and governments.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#330586 - 05/27/08 01:00 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Old_Pig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Animals do sometimes displace unstable leaders. Of course, this usually happens when the risks and pains associated with continuing to obey the leader start to seriously outweigh the risk involved in confronting him.

Animals can also punish naughty group members without even having to call in the leader, because they all share a common understanding of the rules.

Yes, even animals have rules. More sophisticated and complex animal societies tend to have more sophisticated and nuanced rules, and smaller or less sophisticated ones have fewer rules. Smarter animals, as a general rule, live in more complex societies or groups, and less intelligent animals tend to live in less complex ones. (And yeah, herein lies a kind of chicken-egg dilemma.)

But I digress wink . Civilized humans as a whole can neither fully retreat nor revert back to "natural law" at this point. Pandora's box has been opened, and it can't be closed again. If you tried to get people to fully revert back to natural law, most of them would go kicking and screaming. Most people wouldn't know what to do with themselves, and in time, you'd find that people were re-creating the same-old same-old "artificial" hierarchies and standards and rules all over again.

Should more things in society be based on natural law? Yes! Will some of them be? Perhaps. Should all things be? No! Because, can all things be, realistically? No!

Idealism isn't all bad. Hopes, dreams, wants, and ambitions can keep us going. Idealism just has to be tempered with realism, so that you can be sure you're betting on a horse who has a decent chance of winning. If you place all your hopes and dreams with Ol' Epoxy, you may end up breaking the bank.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#330588 - 05/27/08 01:11 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: TrojZyr]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I don't know who said it, nor do I think it is awfully relevant to the point. Yet the saying that anarchy is the mother of law rings true to anyone with cognitive ability. With no rules or standards to adhere to there will be someone who will create them. There will be those who agree with them and in turn impose their rules and standards on others. If they are strong enough and succeed they would break the anarchy. They would create law and enforce it.


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#330592 - 05/27/08 01:39 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: FalloutGod]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
By that very reasoning anarchy is the absence of law, and if law is always created from anarchy then the more natural state of present day humans is to live within a society with laws (no matter what those laws are) and not anarchy.

As Trojzyr says, the pandora's box of human development has now been opened, the only way we could move into a "simpler" state of existence would be to regress somehow. It could be argued that with technological development will come a smaller requirement for a rigid law read: post-scarcity societies like the Culture in Iain Bank's books - they have no laws because there is no scarcity, hence no ownership, hence no need to compete for survival. The model of society they live in is extremely different and in many ways simpler.

The fact that no society has chosen to live in arnarchy for any length of time just goes to show it's not a desirous state to be in.
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#330598 - 05/27/08 02:22 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I've always viewed Anarchy as the state after revolution before change. A step.

So I'm gathering the consensus as: we humans, as a sophisticated animal society, have evolved away from purely natural law. We cannot revert back to that system (that, theoretically, may have never existed in TOTAL absence of some natural leadership acknowledgment) because we have become so separate from it through convenience & exponential advancement (evolutionary, innovative, etc.) potential. And because that is what we've become. The product of our "intellectual property".

And that's not a bad thing. Just different.

I almost suggested the possibility that we're evolving away from being animals, but upon reflection that would be impossible because whether or not we evolve to be different does not change what we are.

Am I getting closer?

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#330612 - 05/27/08 03:35 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I think so, but you do have a way of stating things in a somewhat idealistic manner. So I'm not certain of what exactlly you are conveying. Sounds about right from what I interpreted though.

Here is a better loading video of the Battle at Kruger.



Enjoy the laws among animals. We are not so different, at all. We are what we are.


Edited by FalloutGod (05/27/08 03:50 PM)

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#330617 - 05/27/08 04:05 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I am not even sure if people could live without laws in a post-scarcity society. I think something within human beings would have to shift or change, because our inborn urge to protect and amass resources is tireless and insatiable. Because of how they're wired, human beings will often continue to fight for shelter, land, food, power, prestige, and sex, even when they have "enough," and sometimes, even to the point of causing themselves harm or unhappiness!

And, humans will never stop being animals, technically, unless they somehow evolve into, say, fungi. wink
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#330650 - 05/27/08 06:32 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: ]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
Thank you all for your responses.

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#330712 - 05/28/08 01:34 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
I know you've said you've never claimed to be a Satanist, but you would agree with the philosophy otherwise you wouldn't be here, right?

I personally do not see how a Satanist could be a leftist at all, much less one of extreme left ideals -- because leftists stand for the benefit of the majorities and they'd likely cringe upon hearing the word individualism as if it was always necessarily a privilege only available to those of high social status.

And on that note, how would you feel if a bunch of bums broke into your house, stole everything you've worked for to own, raped your girlfriend and left you there with absolutely nothing?

Because that's what would happen if in this day and age governments simply ceased to be.

We, human beings as a pack called society need rules, while we as individuals do not need to be censored to the degree we are these days, however.

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#330725 - 05/28/08 03:15 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
I think that in politics it is common that many people have their own varying opinions on what so and so party really stands for.
Lacking measurable truths it's hard to be truly left or right.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#330730 - 05/28/08 03:52 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I agree with a lot of different philosophies that contradict each other. For example: I have an idea that Lex Talionis is the most logical form of punishment, but I distrust our current justice system and therefore would not advocate the adoption of it without major modification to the process.

I've considered myself an Anarchist for the last 15 years, based purely on my views of individuality & sentience. That seemed to be the ideal state for Lex Talionis. And the Bush administration has only cemented my distrust in the ruling "moral majority". But I've never considered it the final goal, only one circuit in a bigger machine.

I've realized that it would be more valuable to reorganize my idealism into goal-oriented realism. That condition could still have a temporary state of Anarchy were it necessary to birth change, but that's where I ended my theorizing before. I mean, whatever it takes to displace the current ruling fucktards. You don't have to be leftist to see the flaws in the process that elected them.

Regardless of the system in place, if anyone were to do that to me I'd become Martin Riggs. Or Frank Castle.

Now THAT's idealistic!

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#330912 - 05/28/08 05:25 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2851
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I personally do not see how a Satanist could be a leftist at all, much less one of extreme left ideals -- because leftists stand for the benefit of the majorities and they'd likely cringe upon hearing the word individualism as if it was always necessarily a privilege only available to those of high social status.


Why does that come up so often in a religion of individualists?

Why is there such marked solipsism when it comes to Satanists and politics?

I don't have more of an answer than this: Satanists, as individuals who champion their own self-preservation while maintaining the hallmark of individuality will no doubt have as many different ideas as to what DOES promote self-preservation as there are individual Satanists. More clearly, assuming that your view of what is self-preservation will be politically echoed by all Satanists is presumptuous in the extreme.

There are liberals, conservatives, progressives, nationalists, YOU friggin' name it, in this organization. Each one utterly Satanic.


Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#331073 - 05/29/08 02:58 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Ygraine]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
I don't really know a Hell of a lot about politics, so when I think of left parties the first thing that comes to mind is communism and when I hear a leftist politician speak I detect communist ideals, even when they are not extremists.

Giving a second thought, I can see how a Satanist could be a leftist actually, as for instance when whatever benefits the majority would also benefit them, but at first thought I just tend to think that those occasions would be rarer as I see a lot more room for individualism & merit in the right parties.

But again, I could never be bothered to educate myself much on the subject of politics, so don't take my opinion too seriously, it can change when I get a little more informed or when I'm brought to ponder - such as was the case.

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#344455 - 08/07/08 11:07 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
I apologize for pulling an old topic to the top of the list but I feel that this issue needs to be addressed. I've been censored several times here in the forums. I'm not bitching, just noting. I would like to think this is the one forum on the internet that would welcome sensitive topics. Whenever I see my posts disappear I get the feeling that I touched a nerve and perhaps ellicited shame? What is it? I thought Satanists would never be afraid to address the deep topics. It feels like we're playing flag hockey. A contradiction in terms.

Anyways, I hate censorship and I thumb my nose at the people with big blackout sharpees in their hands. So here is a harmless non-threatening dancing neutered chili that never offends anyone.
devilchili
_________________________
Is my metal too heavy?

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#344458 - 08/07/08 11:24 AM A few fallacies in what you're saying, as I see it. [Re: Pirate]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Originally Posted By: Pirate
I would like to think this is the one forum on the internet that would welcome sensitive topics.


Sensitive to whom?

Quote:
Whenever I see my posts disappear I get the feeling that I touched a nerve and perhaps ellicited shame?


Or you just posted it in the wrong place, or you posted it in the best place accessible then it got moved to a more appropriate forum Downstairs, or the post broke some kind of board rules, or it wandered into territory that could cause problems for the board owner or the CoS by extension, or maybe a moderator just had too many coffees this morning and got a little trigger-happy.

At the end of the day, you won't always know why your post was deleted, and in the end, it really doesn't matter. It's gone now. Move on.

Quote:
What is it? I thought Satanists would never be afraid to address the deep topics.


Address them? Yes. Flaunt them before the public? Sometimes, perhaps, but not always. And sometimes, the topic simply wasn't nearly as deep as the poster thought it was, and got deleted because it just came across as silly or superfluous or somesuch.

Quote:
Anyways, I hate censorship and I thumb my nose at the people with big blackout sharpees in their hands.


Too bad. Might is right. This is Magister Ventrue's place, and he and his moderators (who act according to his guidelines), rule the roost. If you feel this is an issue, do be mindful of the Eighth Satanic Law of the Earth.

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#344460 - 08/07/08 11:39 AM Re: A few fallacies in what you're saying, as I see it. [Re: Pirate]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Pirate
I apologize for pulling an old topic to the top of the list but I feel that this issue needs to be addressed. I've been censored several times here in the forums. I'm not bitching, just noting. I would like to think this is the one forum on the internet that would welcome sensitive topics. Whenever I see my posts disappear I get the feeling that I touched a nerve and perhaps ellicited shame? What is it? I thought Satanists would never be afraid to address the deep topics. It feels like we're playing flag hockey. A contradiction in terms.

Anyways, I hate censorship and I thumb my nose at the people with big blackout sharpees in their hands. So here is a harmless non-threatening dancing neutered chili that never offends anyone.
devilchili


Don't assume because a topic is deleted that we are "afraid" of it.

Chances are it was deleted for being a stupid subject that has been discussed to death, or something equally stupid intended to be a loophole for idiots to defend something illegal.

Most people trying to be edgy or provocative are only repeating what a thousand people before them have posted in their equally uninteresting attempts to be edgy or provocative.

We have been around for a long time and have seen and heard it all before.

If you don't like how this forum is operated, leave.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#344475 - 08/07/08 01:01 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 7000
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
1) This site is open for all to read. It is also a place where some look to see what is going on in the Church of Satan (which is not, from what I know, it's purpose). That fact alone may alleviate some confusion.

2) Censorship gets a bad rap. In fact, if I had the ability to delete every stupid thing I hear on any given day, I would do it.

3) It is an interesting fact that the person who began this thread is no longer here.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#344489 - 08/07/08 02:54 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Pirate
I apologize for pulling an old topic to the top of the list but I feel that this issue needs to be addressed. I've been censored several times here in the forums. I'm not bitching, just noting. I would like to think this is the one forum on the internet that would welcome sensitive topics.


When other people invite you into their homes, do you also feel the need to point out to them how they don't live up to your standards?

Personally I find it a great privledge that a religion that does not see the need to be all-inclusive lets non-members hang around and learn - and much can be learned by taking the time to read through past subjects and see why other members are no longer here.

If you feel that you have been unfairly censored, isn't the really something that you need to take up with Magister Ventrue in a private message - I'm sure that he and his moderators have good reason for their actions (or the ability to see if something wrong was done). I'm also pretty sure that a Satanic website is not the place where policy is decided by what non-members feel entitled to in the public forum.

There is no need to use such broad strokes to paint yourself as a victim - get specific and take it up with those who have the ability to do something about it.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#344495 - 08/07/08 04:08 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: verszou]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
The issue isn't me as a "victim" the issue is that anything that may cause heated debate is flagged and erased. The only victims are the people who cannot grease those brain sprockets because nothing intellectually stimulating ever gets posted.
_________________________
Is my metal too heavy?

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#344496 - 08/07/08 04:20 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The only victims are the people who cannot grease those brain sprockets because nothing intellectually stimulating ever gets posted.

Because this is the only place they're going to find any intellectual stimulation....?

Because you're the one who's going to bring it to them...?

Maybe there are some people who, when they want to know what the issues of the day are, come onto these forums. The rest of us read books. We come on LttD for something else.


Edited by reprobate (08/07/08 04:20 PM)
_________________________
reprobate

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#344549 - 08/07/08 10:25 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Pirate
The issue isn't me as a "victim" the issue is that anything that may cause heated debate is flagged and erased. The only victims are the people who cannot grease those brain sprockets because nothing intellectually stimulating ever gets posted.


I was not aware that there were oppressed masses huddled in the corners of LttD waiting for a champion to fight the good fight for them smile

I guess the representatives from Amnesty International will be here any minute now.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#344585 - 08/08/08 02:05 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: ]
Queen Shiba Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1395
Loc: USA
That's what I could never understand. People giving threats over the Internet. Silliest thing I ever did see.

Geeshhhh!
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#344618 - 08/08/08 06:12 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Here's the deal, glockenspeil.

First, I do not know the content of those deleted posts of yours, so whatever I say here, don't assume that I'm necessarily implying certain things about your posts. I am speaking broadly and in general here. Now then.

Normally, I agree that censorship is bad. But, I've discovered that the Internet can turn into a royal mess without a form of it (moderation) and then nobody gets to have any fun anymore, save for the various trolls and flamers. All of the best boards on the Internet have mods who essentially "censor" people by either deleting their inappropriate or superfluous posts, or banning them when they break the major rules. All of the craziest and most disorganized boards--which usually end up being the most boring ones as well--in contrast, do not have mods, so all is chaos. So, there's one reason for it.

The second reason for it is that we just aren't any old board. We are a board of SATANISTS. People with various agendas are watching. We have to be careful not to give the spin-doctors too much yarn, so to speak, nor give newbies and outsiders any false impressions. So, some discussions are at least not suitable for the General Forums, and some discussions--"CAN I BILD A BOMB AN SMOKE POT?"--are not suitable for anywhere.

The third reason for it is that we are Satanists, and we'd like some peace and quiet for once. If we want to talk to, say, Christians, or devil worshipers, or people who disagree with Satanism, we know where to go. Here, we just want to be able to talk amongst each other and interact with our own without resistance, and without having to discuss the same tired issues that have been brought up in the General Forums a million times before. Satanists still have debates over various issues, mind you, but there are certain kinds of debates we no longer need to have.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#344623 - 08/08/08 06:24 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: TrojZyr]
Queen Shiba Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1395
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
"CAN I BILD A BOMB AN SMOKE POT?"--are not suitable for anywhere.


I'm slowly getting up off the floor from laughing so hard. Thank you TrojZyr, you have given me a laugh that I so needed today.

Miss Mina
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#344626 - 08/08/08 06:45 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: TrojZyr]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
Which is exactly why I post "controversial" comments. People want to discuss bullshit in circles until everybody is satisfied they've met their word or post quota but the moment you give them something with substance to chew and require them to think carefully about the subjects that to the herd are taboo, you get flamed for it. Everyone starts projecting agendas and flaming eachother to no avail and the actual content of the subject is completely disregarded. If you never sort out the sensitive details on delicate subjects then you learn nothing except how to tiptoe around like a politician. I apologize if my words seem scrambled.
_________________________
Is my metal too heavy?

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#344629 - 08/08/08 07:04 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Originally Posted By: Pirate
Which is exactly why I post "controversial" comments.


Have you read Peter Gilmore's essay "Rebels without cause"?

Quote:
People want to discuss bullshit in circles until everybody is satisfied they've met their word or post quota


I don't think anybody's making a thesis-style word count, or cares much about post counts.

Satanists care about quality, not quantity.

Quote:
but the moment you give them something with substance to chew and require them to think carefully about the subjects that to the herd are taboo, you get flamed for it.
Everyone starts projecting agendas and flaming eachother to no avail


That's simply not the case. I for one make about half my posts in a forum Downstairs dedicated specifically to topics that are taboo to the mainstream. It's just that what you think is delightfully taboo, we think is rather old-hat.

Quote:
and the actual content of the subject is completely disregarded.


Which is often for the better.

Quote:
If you never sort out the sensitive details on delicate subjects


They aren't usually sensitive details or delicate subjects. They're usually just old things that have been happily hashed out long previously.

Quote:
then you learn nothing


I'm not here to learn. Learning is, actually, very often a pleasant side-effect of my interactions here, as people post interesting information about the place. However, it is just a by-product; I'm here to mix with my fellow Alien Élite. My presence here is chiefly social, to interact with other Satanists about topics of mutual interest.

Notice how underneath the words "Letters to the Devil" at the top of the page, it says "where the elite come to play", not "where the elite come to learn from random members of the public who wander by".

Quote:
except how to tiptoe around like a politician.


Also known as Lesser Magic. A useful thing to learn.

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#344632 - 08/08/08 07:06 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
Reporbate & Verszou:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I give half a damn about protecting anyone else in some fantasy "good fight".

I do not post with an agenda to start shit or condone illegal activities or whatever else had on your list. I post what I feel is necessary. The only thought in my mind when I approach posting on a subject on this board is not "How can I misdirect someone to agree with me?" it is "What is the simplest and quickest way to get the truth of the subject across and cut through the bullshit?" If this means sharing "touchy" details about my life or describing the grizzly things in life that people want to turn a blind eye to, then so be it. I am not here to misdirect, miseducate or start little cliques. If reality is not your thing then go live in a ritual chamber. If you can't handle it THEN HIT YOUR IGNORE BUTTON. It's as simple as that.

Ravenhael & Miss Mina:

Yes, it was a poorly veiled threat made out of frustration. They completely missed the point and I was too tired to set the record straight.

I think it is kind of funny though that the moderators have so little confidence in the posting population here that they decided to toast a thread that could have resulted in a big flame war, but also had the potential to actually educate people.
_________________________
Is my metal too heavy?

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#344634 - 08/08/08 07:10 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
Mindless social interaction is a waste of time.
_________________________
Is my metal too heavy?

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#344635 - 08/08/08 07:12 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Pirate
You're lucky we have the internet between us.


GO AWAY.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#344653 - 08/08/08 08:33 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
This isn't your messageboard.

As you can see, coming on here and haphazardly acting controversial and confrontational gets you nowhere.
_________________________
www.vampiretemple.com
Are You One Of Us?

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#344657 - 08/08/08 08:57 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Pirate]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
Hello

I, too, have had posts and threads deleted but I tend to look at my time here in a different sort of light.

To me, the public sections of this board are rather like a lobby where we of blue usernames are invited in for a sort of perpetual cocktail party. Herein, we get to interact with folks who have clearly defined their walk down the left hand path. To me, to assume any rights in directing the course and content of conversation is assuming far too much, especially since there really isn't a gain in this interaction from their perspective.

I mean no disrespect to you as I know it's a tad frustrating to have your words/thoughts deleted but this isn't a public venue and our time here is by permission of the owners. The definition of censorship doesn't really apply in this case.

So, back to cocktails?

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#344659 - 08/08/08 09:00 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Fnord]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 7000
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: skullfarmer

So, back to cocktails?


Our guest has been escorted out. wink
Another scotch?
_________________________
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http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#344662 - 08/08/08 09:06 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Originally Posted By: skullfarmer

So, back to cocktails?


Our guest has been escorted out. wink
Another scotch?


You are the epitome of the word 'gentleman', sir. smile

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#344664 - 08/08/08 09:10 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Fnord]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
I know that my name is in "blue" but I wouldn't mind another Scotch! Johnny Walker "Blue" would be nice...Happy Friday!
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#344668 - 08/08/08 09:24 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Descendant]
III Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 236

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#344670 - 08/08/08 09:24 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Fnord]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
*raises glass*

To the moderators!

And to all a good indulgent weekend.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#344673 - 08/08/08 09:37 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: verszou]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
"On the nose Blue Label is exceptionally smooth, even if you take a very deep inhale, there is no harsh alcohol burn. There is a subtle aroma of smoke, tobacco and peat with a slight sweetness, almost fruity, that is quite enjoyable. On tasting you get a good shot of smoke with a little astringency and some good warmth in the mouth. The scotch clings to your tongue and the peatiness comes out with hints of bitterness, like bittersweet chocolate. There is a background of malt and after a minute the flavours still linger pleasantly on your tongue.".....On the Rocks of course! (All of while the Mormon Slaves (I mean boys) finish waxing my Jeep!!!) Ahhh..How I love life!


Edited by Descendant (08/08/08 09:40 AM)
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#344674 - 08/08/08 09:39 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: verszou]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
I saw the whole 'you're lucky' comment in the wee wee hours of this AM.

After laughing a bit with another member I 'almost' hit the notify button but thought to Myself......it will work it's self out. Someone will see that OR a bigger hole will be dug before too long.

Now as for Scotch, while I Myself no longer imbibe; (I'll buy someone a nice Scotch) and as I recall, I used to like Johnnie Walker Green and or blue. Geeze, please don't tell Me I'm buying someone cheap Scotch. For all I know, (I just may be)! eek

Granted, I was never much of a Scotch drinker and usually only used it in High Balls (mixed with Ginger-ale) but It wasn't half bad if memory serves Me (it's been years however since I had Scotch though).

Eve raises glass of sparking water with lemon wedge.. ummmm cheers? frown
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#344676 - 08/08/08 09:52 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Evil_Eve]
Queen Shiba Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1395
Loc: USA
And....I will raise my glass of White Zin, and toast all who will join me.

But, that lemon water sure sounds good about now.

Eve, you were right in your thoughts, everything did work out like it should. "Out" being the operative word!!

Have fun everyone, the weekend is almost upon us.

Mina
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#344680 - 08/08/08 09:59 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Evil_Eve]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 7000
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Evil_Eve
(I'll buy someone a nice Scotch)


If the offer is firm, I will PM you my address post haste!
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#344687 - 08/08/08 10:28 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Well it was your Birthday the other day right? coopdevil

Maybe I should re-word that before I owe a bunch of people here some blue or green label Walker. eek

Miss Mina, indeed, this lemon water is sparkly, bubbly and well, good for Me. (Raises glass) Happy weekend everyone. smile
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


Top
#344723 - 08/08/08 01:15 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Evil_Eve]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 7000
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Evil_Eve
Well it was your Birthday the other day right? coopdevil



Yep! Thus the bottle of Jack in my liquor cabinet, courtesy of my in-laws.
Okay...half a bottle of Jack.
Well...a little less than half a bottle of Jack.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#344758 - 08/08/08 05:40 PM The green fairy sends her regards! [Re: Pirate]
Mr Avarice Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
And there goes another Rubber three plant!

Quote:
So, back to cocktails?

In that case I raise my glass of opaque green liquor in celebration to

The moderator who was kind enough to take out the trash

My fellow Satanists

And to the fact that I'm quiting drinking alcohol altogether... As soon as I've drained my supply that is. wink

Here's to a wonderful weekend!

HS!

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