Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#337109 - 06/28/08 07:26 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Abudallat]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Quote:
I am NOT a Satanist but have decided to contribute to this forum first so I can learn more, before I purchase the book and pay money to become one.

I have yet to see any contributions. A lot of laziness and spreading inaccuracies. As a self-proclaimed non-Satanist, what do you have to contribute? Simply posting in and of itself is not contributing.

Quote:
Surely, Crowley knew much about the occult because his work deals with so well-defined and articulated methodology of Western ritual magick. Doesn't LaVey even mention the use of lesser/manipulative magic(Voodoo) and Greater/Ceremonial magic( a theatrical display of wild emotions)?

First of all, it's M-A-G-I-C. Secondly, you'll find that many of us here (myself included) share Magister Phineas' opinion regarding Crowley. Lastly, you have some serious reading to do if you think that Lesser Magic is the same thing as Voodoo. I would normally offer a bit more of an explanation, if someone is seriously attempting to learn and has shown effort, but seeing as you're too lazy to read "The Satanic Bible" yourself, there's no reason for me to bother.
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

Top
#337115 - 06/28/08 09:20 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Abudallat]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: abudallat
I am NOT a Satanist but have decided to contribute to this forum first so I can learn more, before I purchase the book and pay money to become one.

To me, that's like joining a Pink Floyd fan message board, to decide whether or not you want to buy any of their CDs. It should be the other way around.

And as it says right on the Church of Satan website, you don't "pay money to become" a Satanist. You're a Satanist if you honestly (read: without trying, or servitude) see yourself reflected in The Satanic Bible. You "pay money" for a membership in the Church of Satan, if you so choose.

As for why devil worshipers and the like are not Satanists, and why WE have rightful ownership of the term "Satanist", read this:
http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=174793
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ‹bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#337117 - 06/28/08 09:40 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Abudallat]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: abudallat
Maybe I would never convert but who knows if I do win the lottery, I could spare US$200 and become affiliated.

If "winning the lottery" is really the only way you could hope to obtain $200 in life, then you have FAR more pressing difficulties in life to take care of. You also wouldn't seem like the type to join an organizaiton whose principles include things like self-sufficiency and personal accomplishments.

Quote:
Surely, Crowley knew much about the occult because his work deals with so well-defined and articulated methodology of Western ritual magick.

Regardless, it still doesn't make him a Satanist. Crowley didn't identify as a Satanist, the Thelemites don't identify as Satanists, and they all practiced a religion that is clearly not reflected in The Satanic Bible. If you get kicks out of Crowley's works, fine. He still wasn't a Satanist. The only people I see calling Crowley a Satanist are Christians who stupidly call anybody interested in the occult "Satanists", journalists who don't do their homework, and the people who blindly believe the Church propaganda and bad journalism.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ‹bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#337416 - 06/30/08 10:14 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Bill_M]
MASTER of NONE Offline


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Brooklyn, New York
As the great Carl Sagan said " extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". In the hundreds of years of supposed paranormal claims has there been one case that has stood up to skeptical inquirey? I dont believe I've heard of any.

In my opinion study of the paranormal should be handled with an open mind but so far its been nothing but a debunkers paradise.

I say there is no paranormal or supernatural, there is only nature.

Top
#337432 - 07/01/08 02:23 AM Just curious... [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Exactly how much have you actually studied on the subject to come to this conclusion?

Have you actually read journal publications by those who investigated such things over the last one hundred years that you mention, such as by the BSPR or ASPR, and, if so, how many?

Have you looked carefully and without prejudice at the evidence?

Or have you only read the opinions offered from one perspective?

I am always interested in those who are so seemingly certain of such things when Satanism holds that it is doubt that is critical in achieving "the undefiled wisdom".

We certainly see Satanists who doubt that the so-called "paranormal" is real. However usually they do not pretend to the omniscience of the Lord God Jehovah and declare that they can know all things with absolute certainty.

Generally Satanists are simply pragmatic about such things.

So, is this just your best guess belief, or do you really know for certain?

And if you are certain, really certain, please share with the rest of us (including all the modern physicists who are still in the dark on this issue) just exactly how you can know this.

P.S. We tend to refer to it as the "super-normal".

Top
#337460 - 07/01/08 08:07 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: MASTER of NONE

I say there is no paranormal or supernatural, there is only nature.



Intelligent people who have experienced precognition, out of body experiences, instances of events seemingly changing course due to their wills would agree with you. If these events take place, they are natural. The problem with research is that pretty much everyone involved has a vested interest.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

Top
#337477 - 07/01/08 09:14 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: MASTER of NONE
In the hundreds of years of supposed paranormal claims has there been one case that has stood up to skeptical inquirey? I dont believe I've heard of any.


There are literally dozens that defy explanation for a variety of reasons.

One of the most notable cases is that of The Bell Witch whose apparent antics were witnessed and documented by a population of people including a possible encounter with Andrew Jackson.

Another that comes immediately to mind is the case of Carla Moran (of 'The Entity' fame). Dr. Barry Taff's (Neuropsychiatric Institute, UCLA) work and subsequent investigations of the case are well documented and certainly far from being 'disproven' (or proven) despite being on the chopping block for skeptical inquiry.

My stance is that we barely know the rudimentary functions of the natural world on this planet alone. As such, pragmatism is the only approach that makes sense. Anyone who is diametrically opposed to changing their viewpoints based on available evidence will sooner or later find him/her self in an inescapable quandary.

As an aside, one of the first things I noticed on my first reading of The Satanic Bible is that it doesn't presume and it doesn't box itself in. As such, it allows the student to grow and to continually find previously missed (or mis-applied) pearls of wisdom in the way that it's adaptable to the student's level of understanding. It really is a brilliant and life changing work.

Top
#337541 - 07/01/08 05:07 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Phineas]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Originally Posted By: Phineas
Before Dr. LaVey came on the scene, there were no Satanists. Dr. LaVey developed, codified and established Satanism.


Really? I thought Satanists existed all throughout history. It is just that Dr. LaVey was the first to label them as such. Just like how sharks existed long before marine biologists classified them as "sharks."

Top
#337546 - 07/01/08 05:48 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Intelligent people who have experienced precognition, out of body experiences, instances of events seemingly changing course due to their wills would agree with you. If these events take place, they are natural. The problem with research is that pretty much everyone involved has a vested interest.


Perhaps instead of "experienced precognition" one should say, "had a precognition experience", as "experienced precognition" already seems to state that such a thing as precognition is possible.

Not that we could be certain such thins cannot happen, but as to explanations on why intelligent and mentally fit people are having these experiences, there is little or nothing unexplained left to study after you take a look at them from cognitive neurology point of view.

There is no evidence that these events take place outside the mind, but there are plenty of explanations, maybe even completely fulfilling, on how these experiences may happen inside the mind.

However there are other occurrences that still are unexplained but nothing in what you describe brings any such things to mind.

The only example of an unexplained phenomenon that I can come up with, which(as far as I know) is inconclusive, has to do with the sense of someone staring at you from behind.

There is no evidence however that it would be a fact that people can indeed sense such a thing, as it does not produce testable results. (which suggests that the phenomenon is some form of an illusion.)

However there are illusion stage magic tricks that also base on this phenomenon, and the magicians themselves are uncertain as to how the phenomenon itself functions, if indeed it does.

We only know that there seems to be a common experience that this kind of sense takes place.
As to what exactly is the nature of this experience there are many theories but none this far(that I know of) that would give a satisfactory account on all experiences of this nature, or could be used to construct experiments with.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Top
#337548 - 07/01/08 05:52 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Enigma777]
MASTER of NONE Offline


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Brooklyn, New York
Magister Nemo... there is nothing anyone can know for certain. We can only approximate through experience, reason and peer revue to come to a general concensus. I stated quite clearly that what I wrote was my opinion, but I happen to feel very strongly about it.

I view things from a very skeptical standpoint, especially strange claims of the supernormal. I just do not buy into any of that stuff. The "Amazing" James Randy has had an offer on the table for about 25 years of a million dollars to anyone who can show proof of paranormal activity or powers. It would be tested by an unbiased 3rd party. Its never been challenged. Not once.

Experiences of a personal nature are not valid unless you can prove it to other people... otherwise it's just hearsay and conjecture.

Have I read journals of paranormal experience? No. I've been reading science books and skeptical magazines for about 15 years. If you want to say that makes me biased, well then I guess I can't argue, but I believe I'm biased toward rationality.

Apply Occam's Razor. All things being equal the simplest answer is always the best choice.

And Skullfarmer... i dont totally buy the notion that Satanism doesnt box itself in. Satanists believe there is no god. How can you prove that? You can't... so does that mean I should remain pragmatic and live my life as if there might be a god?


Edited by MASTER of NONE (07/01/08 05:54 PM)

Top
#337555 - 07/01/08 06:19 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:
The "Amazing" James Randy has had an offer on the table for about 25 years of a million dollars to anyone who can show proof of paranormal activity or powers. It would be tested by an unbiased 3rd party. Its never been challenged. Not once.


People take up the challenge all the time. I think you meant to say that no one's ever come close to winning it.

Quote:
Have I read journals of paranormal experience? No. I've been reading science books and skeptical magazines for about 15 years. If you want to say that makes me biased, well then I guess I can't argue, but I believe I'm biased toward rationality.


Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I'll even say that I feel the same way. But there's something important to keep in mind -- Satanism and the Scientific Method are NOT one and the same! They can be perfectly compatible, but they're also very different.

Case in point:

Quote:
Experiences of a personal nature are not valid unless you can prove it to other people... otherwise it's just hearsay and conjecture.
...
Apply Occam's Razor. All things being equal the simplest answer is always the best choice.


Within the ritual chamber there is nothing but experience of a personal nature, and one's "best choice" is often anything but logical.

-Chess

Top
#337557 - 07/01/08 06:29 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: MASTER of NONE
Have I read journals of paranormal experience? No. I've been reading science books and skeptical magazines for about 15 years.

I have to somewhat "side" with MASTER of NONE on this one.
It seems clear there is often no proper information bridge between paranormal literature and all the work that skeptics have done to debunk the paranormal.

Critical examination means you seek out or create the best and most professional criticism possible and then see if you can find criticism to that criticism.
Then if a claim of paranormality/supernormality does not manage to hold against that criticism, or to offer counter criticism, you will know that anything unexplained in it at least isn't sufficiently expressed.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Top
#337562 - 07/01/08 06:43 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Chess]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: Chess
Within the ritual chamber there is nothing but experience of a personal nature, and one's "best choice" is often anything but logical.

Ritual chamber, also called the intellectual decompression chamber right?

Appreciation and understanding of the importance and power of fantasy does not need to exclude the ability to recognize the difference between fantasy and reality.
To my understanding the effect of magic isn't necessarily reduced by the understanding of how it works, although the science of "how it works" probably isn't the element you would use in the ritual chamber.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Top
#337563 - 07/01/08 06:48 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Chess]
MASTER of NONE Offline


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Brooklyn, New York
Chess...

Quote:
People take up the challenge all the time. I think you meant to say that no one's ever come close to winning it.


Good point.. but still

Quote:
one's "best choice" is often anything but logical.


I agree. The Wall Street Journal recently had an article explaining how scientists have discovered that our mind makes a decision well before we are even conscious of it, up to ten seconds in many cases. Whether thats the best choice is debatable but our instincts kick in well before we realize it.

However..when you're coming to conclusions of a scientific nature, you don't go with instincts, you go with the cold hard facts.

Quote:
Within the ritual chamber there is nothing but experience of a personal nature


True, but you're purposefully engaging in that activity to achieve transcendent ends. I can appreciate the affect of subjective experience and emotions conjured up in meditative states.. but I cannot attribute those affects to the paranormal without valid evidence.


Edited by MASTER of NONE (07/01/08 06:56 PM)

Top
#337569 - 07/01/08 07:30 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:
However..when you're coming to conclusions of a scientific nature, you don't go with instincts, you go with the cold hard facts.


Which is why no one's trying to write up their ritual experiences for a peer-reviewed physics journal. wink As I said before, Satanism is not the same thing as the Scientific Method.

Quote:
True, but you're purposefully engaging in that activity to achieve transcendent ends.


Exactly.

Quote:
I can appreciate the affect of subjective experience and emotions conjured up in meditative states.. but I cannot attribute those affects to the paranormal without valid evidence.


Okay. No one's saying you have to.

Some use ritual purely as a piece of applied psychology, intending no effect on anything but their own minds. Others feel rituals can have external effects in the world, via some mysterious means. And yet we somehow avoid having an Unholy War over this subtle matter of interpretation. wink

-Chess

Top
Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Forum Stats
12201 Members
73 Forums
43985 Topics
406074 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements