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#337571 - 07/01/08 07:47 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Chess]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: Chess
Some use ritual purely as a piece of applied psychology, intending no effect on anything but their own minds. Others feel rituals can have external effects in the world, via some mysterious means.

Ah! But it could well be both.

Our science is still very inconclusive as to, in how many ways and what we communicate of our minds to each other.
We effect each others thoughts with just our presence and communicate things that still remain hidden on the conscious level from everyone taking part in the social situation.

The human animal is filled with communication methods and layers of manipulation and deceit not just between individuals but inside each one of us, lies upon lies that we build for our own minds.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#337577 - 07/01/08 08:39 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Enigma777]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: nicesatan777
I thought Satanists existed all throughout history. It is just that Dr. LaVey was the first to label them as such. Just like how sharks existed long before marine biologists classified them as "sharks."


No. True, there has been elements of Satanism as long as there has been the human animal. But, it was Anton LaVey who formulated those elements into a coherent whole, codified it and gave it a name.

To say that there were Satanists before 1966, because there were people and groups that shared certain aspects with Satanism, is like calling Jules Verne a Twentieth Century man because of his imagining technologies that did not yet exist. He couldn't be because he lived in the 19th and 20th centuries...even if ahead of his time.

There were no Satanists before 1966 because Satanism did not exist...only foreshadowings.
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#337647 - 07/02/08 03:45 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
If Satanists are born and not made they existed before Satanism was codified. Someone said that Satanism is like the frame that fits around their life. The frame was made after many pictures were drawn. If those pictures fit in the frame then there's not much to dispute.

The Church of Satan did not exist before 1966. To say that there were not those who lived by a Satanic philosophy before that time would be pretentious. Was not Dr. LaVey a Satanist before he codified what it is to be one? You worded a paradox of logic Roho. Are you certain about what you said?

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#337675 - 07/02/08 07:38 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: FalloutGod]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: FalloutGod
Are you certain about what you said?



Actually...yes.
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#337685 - 07/02/08 08:40 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: MASTER of NONE

And Skullfarmer... i dont totally buy the notion that Satanism doesnt box itself in. Satanists believe there is no god. How can you prove that? You can't... so does that mean I should remain pragmatic and live my life as if there might be a god?


Quote:

To the Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. -The Satanic Bible


The Satanic Bible says that 'God' is a balancing force in nature. You would be correct in saying that those who follow Satanism reject God in the way he/she/it is drawn in any other religion (all -knowing anthropomorphic being with a beard and sandals). My interpretation of the words in The Satanic Bible are that since we don't understand what these balancing forces actually are, we draw our own conclusions about them. Every individual in every religion likely has a different idea about what God is, hence Dr. LaVey's allusion to man creating his own God versus some omniscient, never present, cruel and illogical God creating man.

Now, when I say 'draw conclusions' I don't mean to say that those conclusions are concrete. They are simply the best we can do with the best available evidence. New evidence would require a new shift in thought which is why I personally like to view life as a process (always taking in, always purging) versus it being some static form of existence.

In the way that people who follow the right hand path are comforted by the idea that some God sits in waiting for them at the end of their lives, I think the atheist takes comfort in the idea that man can explain everything with science and with his own abilities in logic and reason. In my experience, those who follow the left hand path seem to be comfortable with the idea that there are things that man cannot explain and will revel in exploring the doubt (as Magister Nemo pointed out). All right hand path religions attempt to explain where we came from, what our purpose is, and what our so called after life will be in the attempt to remove doubt.

To me, the left hand path represents the 'now' in whatever imperfect state it is in. History is valuable in its way, but it is gone. Tomorrow is likely, but still a dream. Right NOW is reality and Satanism celebrates life right now.

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#337686 - 07/02/08 08:46 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: FalloutGod]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3546
Loc: Cowtown
What Roho said seems very clear cut. How could there have been Satanists living the Satanic philosophy who called themselves Satanism before it was codified? There were very obviously a great deal of "de-factos" before this time, or otherwise people who lived according to said philosophy, but they were not Satanists. Not until 1966.

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#337712 - 07/02/08 11:48 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: TheDegenerate]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566


MORE EDIT: Never the mind, if I had checked the proper definition of de-facto I'd save my self a lot of time thinking. So De-facto Satanists they were then.


Edited by FalloutGod (07/02/08 11:54 AM)

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#337726 - 07/02/08 12:33 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
As I said, it's a personal decision.

For myself, I agree with you. Let someone else rely on ESP and psychic powers, for my part I rely on sinew, iron, flesh, all things I see right in front of my eyes with obvious results that are not "up for conjecture" or "need research." But I'm a straightforward fella like that.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#337736 - 07/02/08 01:49 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I don't see how someone can rely on something that is inconsistent. That is like firing a gun in a random direction and hoping it hits the target.


Edited by FalloutGod (07/02/08 02:25 PM)

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#337825 - 07/02/08 08:46 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: MASTER of NONE]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2333
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:
so does that mean I should remain pragmatic and live my life as if there might be a god?


Would it make a difference?

From where I sit, even if the God of the Hebrews were real and, all that is attributed to him were true, I couldn't in good conscience honestly worship such a thing without leaving a very sour taste in my mouth. And the omniscient being that he supposedly is would see right through the charade anyway, so there is no point in worrying about what might or might not be real, because I can't change who I am no matter what way the cards fall.

But luckily, pragmatism has nothing to do with brainless 'maybes' and, instead deals with reality. You can't prove that God doesn't exist, but you can't prove that a lot of things don't exist. Thankfully, some things are so absurd, you can safely ignore them and move on, all the while being pragmatic.

The same can be said for a lot of supernatural mumbo-jumbo, so while in that respect I agree with you, I'm not completely willing to scoff at the idea in it's entirety. I simply leave the pursuit of such things to those more qualified than myself and turn my attention to things which produce immediate and concrete results.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#337987 - 07/03/08 05:16 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Originally Posted By: nicesatan777
I thought Satanists existed all throughout history. It is just that Dr. LaVey was the first to label them as such. Just like how sharks existed long before marine biologists classified them as "sharks."


No. True, there has been elements of Satanism as long as there has been the human animal. But, it was Anton LaVey who formulated those elements into a coherent whole, codified it and gave it a name.

To say that there were Satanists before 1966, because there were people and groups that shared certain aspects with Satanism, is like calling Jules Verne a Twentieth Century man because of his imagining technologies that did not yet exist. He couldn't be because he lived in the 19th and 20th centuries...even if ahead of his time.

There were no Satanists before 1966 because Satanism did not exist...only foreshadowings.


Ah, the key word is De-Facto Satanist. I'll remember that.

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#338045 - 07/03/08 09:43 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Enigma777]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
blush While no one called me on it, I meant to say "It is like calling Jules Verne a Twenty First Century man; but, he couldn't be because he livde in the 19th and 20th centuries".

Seriously...I may have a record for stupid mistakes in posts. crazy


Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (07/03/08 09:45 PM)
Edit Reason: Yet ANOTHER mistake.
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#338161 - 07/04/08 09:56 AM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: Zardex]
WolfMoon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 732
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Zardex
There is no evidence that these events take place outside the mind, but there are plenty of explanations, maybe even completely fulfilling, on how these experiences may happen inside the mind.


Does this make the experience somehow less "real"? A subjective experience is still something that exists.
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WolfMoon

The Blood is the Life

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#338270 - 07/04/08 06:49 PM Re: Satanic Perspectives on the Paranormal [Re: WolfMoon]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: WolfMoon
Originally Posted By: Zardex
There is no evidence that these events take place outside the mind, but there are plenty of explanations, maybe even completely fulfilling, on how these experiences may happen inside the mind.


Does this make the experience somehow less "real"? A subjective experience is still something that exists.

No but for instance precognition becomes precognition experience instead of an actual precognition.

There are certain things that can happen in the brain that will make it so it is almost impossible to avoid false belief, like on brain damage patients that are unable to identify parts of their own body as their own.

More common are these cases of precognition that feel absolutely real but the memory of the precognition is actually severely altered after the "foreseen" event.

Certain suggestive methods pray on these types of phenomenon like the descriptions on Tarot Cards and skilled fortune tellers, where you feed the brain information that is likely to pick up on extra information in the future to falsify the memory as a precise prediction of whatever remotely significant eventually happens.

Of cause there are plenty of truly beneficial ways to use how the mind works with suggestions of different kinds.
Simply just using of symbols and art to relate feelings and life situations can be extremely beneficial to focusing thought and concentration.
Even more so when you have an ingeniously built multi-layered system like Satanism that easily spreads all over a persons different aspects. (Which everyone here knows very well of cause.)
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#338327 - 07/05/08 02:10 AM Ask Princeton. [Re: Zardex]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12407
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/papers/dir.timereversed.pdf

Quote:
As shocking as it would have been to 18th century scientists, time-reversed and time-symmetric effects were predicted and later confirmed by 20th century
physicists.

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