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#338447 - 07/05/08 02:54 PM Psychology question
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Is there an official stance on the study of psychology? I see a lot of attention paid to the arts, sciences, mathematics and so on but nothing with any of the more "social studies". I would think that the study of psychology would give insight into the animalistic nature of man and therefore be a boon in one's path as it regards to Satanism. I myself am about to receive my bachelor's in psychology within the next six months.

As a note, I am very new to the path. I have read The Satanic Witch and I am working through the Satanic Bible at this point. Thank you in advance to all who answer this thread.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338453 - 07/05/08 03:20 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
Hello

I certainly wouldn't think it a study inappropriate to Satanism at all. In fact, I would think that an understanding of psychology would, as you've alluded to, help to facilitate the practice of lesser magic.


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#338456 - 07/05/08 03:29 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Quote:
Is there an official stance on the study of psychology?


When they say that "Satanism requires study" they don't mean "learn your scriptures"- they mean that being an efficient and powerful being requires actively gaining knowledge about the world you live in.

There are no sacred cows in Satanism, and therefore no kind of knowledge one should stay away from, according to it.
Also, Satanism is about rational hedonism- so if you find acquiring knowledge in some field to be profitable for you- you should defiantly peruse it!

Anyhow, I know quite a handful of Satanists who study psychology/sociology.
I myself am a psychology student, and find the subject extremely interesting and very valuable.
Lesser magic is, after all, about knowing the minds of people around you and how they function.



Edited by The_Lightning (07/05/08 03:31 PM)
Edit Reason: a little late with that reply I see
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#338458 - 07/05/08 03:34 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: The_Lightning]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I'm planning on getting my doctorate in clinical psychology, and I honestly don't understand people who aren't interested in it!
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#338459 - 07/05/08 03:49 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: TrojZyr]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
I am a psychology student as well. I will be recieving my Bachelor degree in a few short months also.

Before I started studying Psychology in college I had "field experience", adding "book smarts" helped me to understand "why".

Understanding and applying Psychology puts you above the majority of the population and especially the herd in many ways.

Psychology is a component of lesser magic, knowing yourself and others helps in so many ways.

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#338487 - 07/05/08 05:46 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Entity Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1774
Loc: Avalon UK
Quote:
Is there an official stance on the study of psychology?


The study of psychology is legal. wink It requires no "official stance".

The application of psychology seems a more useful discussion.

In The Devil's Notebook, Dr LaVey stated, "The true test of anyone's worth as a living creature is how he can utilize what he has."

So, how will you employ what you've studied?

And don't try deflecting my question by asking about my Mother. coopdevil
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~ Reverend Entity

Nothing is better than to live according to one's taste. - Franšois Villon

Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#338546 - 07/06/08 12:11 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Entity]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Well, from a idealogical point of view, I will use it to assist people in becoming greater than they are. To awaken to their own innate powers, to become empowered, and better their lives. No more "woe is me" crap and "I can't move forward because of what my mother did to me as a child" crap. My goal is to empower people--to extend themselves out to reach the fullness of what life has to offer them.

From a materialistic point of view, I will use it also to make a lucrative income to support myself and my family.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338547 - 07/06/08 12:12 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Fnord]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
I'm assuming that the difference between lesser and greater? higher? magic will be explained in The Satanic Bible? I may not have gotten that far yet.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338548 - 07/06/08 12:15 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: DickSteele]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
I received "field experience" as well from my time spent in the military. It is amazing the different peoples, philosophies, ideologies, and so on that are out there. I have learned how to deal with and get along with so many different people from different ages, backgrounds, religions, and cultures.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338588 - 07/06/08 08:03 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
Indeed, read on.

Also Magister Harris did a podcast on the subject on 6-17.

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#338589 - 07/06/08 08:10 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8320
Yes.

Study first, then ask. wink
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"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#338590 - 07/06/08 08:12 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Good for you.

You should know that the road will be hard in spots, and that some people will absolutely never come around. For every person who does take your advice and become better, there'll be at least a dozen who either ignore you entirely, or nod their heads enthusiastically but still fail to apply what you've just told them. When a person does succeed, though--or when you become known for giving good advice and counseling--you feel like a million bucks.

Regarding field experience--I sometimes fear that my own field experience won't be seen as legitimate. While I'm sure I may often know as much or even more than the average bright-eyed kid who volunteered a year at the rape crisis center or the free clinic or the homeless shelter, his resume may look more appealing and impressive than mine, because I've only volunteered in one professional setting. So, I fear that the hard part will be to convince schools that a lifetime of reading psychology books, counseling friends, and observing people is equal to or sometimes even greater than volunteering at a mental hospital for a year.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#338627 - 07/06/08 10:59 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Phineas]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Am in the process of doing and will do. Thank you.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338628 - 07/06/08 11:05 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Fnord]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
I will do so. I discovered the Satanism Today podcast this morning and listened to Magister Harris' podcast from earlier this week. I was very impressed with his intelligence and point of view on subjects. I will check out the other podcast you recommended later today. Thank you.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#338630 - 07/06/08 11:29 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: TrojZyr]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
I myself despise volunteer work unless in some way it garners me an end. I am a "recovering Wiccan" and I still believe that some form of energy exchange is necessary for the skills I possess. I always hated when people would ask me for counsel, assistance in ritual work, spells, etc. without offering me some sort of compensation in the end. Only one person in my 3 years of being a Wiccan High Priestess offered to mow my grass in exchange for some counsel (they were indeed very poor and I have a rather large yard. Fair exchange in my book I say). However, I digress....

I do have the utmost respect for those who feel that they are fulfilling a life purpose by volunteering. In some way they are attaining a goal that they have whether it be an internal or external one. I just don't have it in me to do it. Perhaps this is your sentiment as well?
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338669 - 07/06/08 03:17 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Ah! I would say you believe in "energy exchange" because you are human. Reciprocation seems to be hardwired into human beings, though some religions (like Wicca and Christianity) may emphasize it more, and apply it on a metaphysical level.

As for how I feel about volunteers, it often depends on three things:

1) Their particular cause
2) Their methods and means, and their understanding of them
3) Their motives and thought process, and their understanding of them.

I think some causes are stupid, fruitless, or sometimes, even bad; I think some methods and means are useless and unproductive; and I think some people are driven by or tethered to goodguy badges, profound personal guilt, and rose-coloured glasses.

But, volunteering can be a perfectly good thing, and people who volunteer sometimes keep vital systems running smoothly. I may not necessarily be that kind of person--though I imagine it depends on the cause--but I still realize that it takes all kinds to keep the world goin' 'round.

Certainly, I resent it when people try to get me to volunteer for something against my will, or otherwise force me to be compassionate or "aware." (Compulsory compassion is scarcely compassion at all!) I also am extremely uncomfortable with the idea "resume/application padding," that is, participating in extracurricular activities or volunteering just to give the appearance of being a well-rounded, busy, compassionate, or experienced person.

Certainly, there are things I like to do, things I can do well, and things I need to do, so of course I'm not keen on the things that cause me to veer off that path, so to speak.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#338707 - 07/06/08 07:00 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: TrojZyr]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Hear, hear indeed.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#338725 - 07/06/08 09:33 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
Oh yeah an Satanists do not have to agree with each other either. laugh ...quite on the contrary applying the tools of Satanism as a personal meta tribe institution in ones life seems to strongly discourage conformity.
I like Psychology too. Mostly Evolutionary Sociology and Cognitive Neuropsychology. Satanism itself isn't outside the scope of critical study as an institution from the sociology standpoint.
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"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#338892 - 07/07/08 05:42 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Zardex]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Thank you for your point of view as well. I have always designated myself as a non-conformist which doesn't go over very well in the military world of which I am a part. It is very difficult to maintain individuality in such a setting.

It seems that the higher in rank people go, the more ignorant they become. I have less trouble playing "follow the leader" if the leader is at least intelligent and discerning in his or her decisions. Unfortunately, this is not the case very often.

On a slightly different note, I find that most people in the military world are extremely elitist which falls much more in line with Satanic principle than the Christian horseshit that is espoused as the "backbone of the Army". Almost every Christian military man I've come in contact with cheats on his spouse which just absolutely boggles my mind. If you are going to stand on Christian morals and values, then please do so. You will ultimately garner more respect in my eyes. If you are not going to stand on your values, then please don't preach to me that you do when I know damn well you are fucking your office secretary.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#341241 - 07/20/08 08:46 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Posthuman Offline


Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle
A subcategory of greater Psychology that dovetails with lesser magic is "Influence Psychology"


Edited by Posthuman (07/20/08 08:47 AM)
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"god" was an invention of Satan, to teach us how stupid we are. magic always works, but our expectations are often at odds with reality.

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#341468 - 07/21/08 03:23 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
I see psychology and sociology as equally valuable or perhaps even moreso than the other sciences. Civilization operates through the mechanics of human interaction. The more acutely one is able to understand these processes the sharper their advantage and the better they are equipped for success in their endeavors. Learned psychology can be applied wherever communication exists. This is true for our furry little companions as well.
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#341565 - 07/22/08 01:17 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11648
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Emerald
Is there an official stance on the study of psychology? [...] I am working through the Satanic Bible at this point.

p52-53
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Reverend Bill M.

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#341702 - 07/22/08 07:23 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
pure_truth Offline


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 20
Originally Posted By: Emerald

It seems that the higher in rank people go, the more ignorant they become. I have less trouble playing "follow the leader" if the leader is at least intelligent and discerning in his or her decisions. Unfortunately, this is not the case very often.


I have also spent a 8 years in the Army. There is nothing more upsetting than an idiot except a leader that is an idiot. Leaders are in a position to manipulate regardless if they want to or not. And the most dangerous thing the "herd" can have is a stupid illogical leader.

Roaming aimlessly grazing is one thing, a stampede can kill even the most powerful.

Hail me!

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#341845 - 07/23/08 07:42 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Bill_M]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Thank you for the information. I will check it out.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#341846 - 07/23/08 07:43 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: pure_truth]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Agreed.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#341952 - 07/24/08 12:25 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
You can't help people that aren't ready to be helped. When a person is able to realize that the true cause of their plight is themselves and not necessarily the circumstance, then they might be able to look at their reflection and take responsibility for what they see. To look inward is more difficult than to blame outward.
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#341964 - 07/24/08 01:33 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Descendant]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Very true. However, as a psychologist, I would be happy to take a person's money for my professional services if they think I can help them. Whether or not they are ready to hear what I have to say is irrelevant at that point. All I can do is put my $40,000 worth of college education into practice.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#341981 - 07/24/08 03:55 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
Does that mean that you have to play into people's weaknesses if you realize that there is no hope for repair. Is part of the business to switch from "serious-skill" mode to "not serious-in one ear/out the other" mode, I would think that you would have to do that to be able to tolerate such weakness on a consistent basis. I would think that there are more who can't be rehabilitated than who can, thinking that is why I wonder about how professionals like yourself deal with the majority of your customers..And then there are the ones who finally see the big-picture, and they make it all worth it.
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#342004 - 07/24/08 06:25 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Descendant]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Let me throw out there that I am not a full-fledged psychologist yet. Right now I am doing "volunteer" work to get my clinical hours in. I am working at the Veteran's Administration in my town so most of the people who actually come to me desperately want help (soldiers with post traumatic stress, husbands and wives who are adjusting to married life with a military member, etc.) I really haven't encountered anyone who hasn't liked or not taken my advice so I'm sure how I would react just yet. I suppose if they kept coming to me and kept paying, I would just keep on talking and do the best I could.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#342109 - 07/25/08 01:06 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
At least now you are working with Veterans, who for the most part have legitimate issues. I would say though that your biggest challenge will be the one where you have to council the pathetic 30 year old who doesn't have a pot to piss in and blames everybody in the world for his set-backs in life and isn't willing to take an ounce of responsibility for anything. Sorry, one of those just passed in front of my eyes while I was typing this......
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#342114 - 07/25/08 02:46 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Descendant]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
You are probably very right about that.
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Eternally,
Emerald

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#342182 - 07/25/08 11:17 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Descendant]
Sakura Offline



Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 220
Loc: The Circus
Originally Posted By: Descendant
At least now you are working with Veterans, who for the most part have legitimate issues. I would say though that your biggest challenge will be the one where you have to council the pathetic 30 year old who doesn't have a pot to piss in and blames everybody in the world for his set-backs in life and isn't willing to take an ounce of responsibility for anything. Sorry, one of those just passed in front of my eyes while I was typing this......


Wow. It looks to me like you are being a bit shortsighted. Where on earth did you get the idea that only veterans have "legitimate" problems and the rest of the people need to get over themselves? There ARE actually people who do have real Issues and are actually doing something about it. Just because YOU came across one slacker who decided to stay in his victim role, does not mean you have the right to judge other people. To me people making statements like you do are people who never had anything happen to them except that their bike got stolen or their hamster died, worst case scenario. If I am wrong about wat you wrote, and misinterpreted, do tell me so. It just struck a wrong chord with me.

The fact is that (finally) three/four years ago I was actually diagnosed with post traumatic stress and treated for it perfectly with EMDR . It works on singular trauma, and I was the first person in trial for multiple traumatic experiences here in the Netherlands.
Before that I spent another three years being misdiagnosed by "cookbook" shrinks (you have this, ingredient and this ingredient and this one.. so it must be this) who had absolutely no people skills and didn't listen to you, gave you pills and just said "you have borderline". Oh yeah, I remember seeing one of those incompetent uninterested Psychs once, because I really needed some help. he asked me "are you depressed?" so I said: "No" and then he said "well, then I can't help you". I wasn't depressed, I was reliving the hell every single day (literally like a movie in my head), having nightmares at night, afraid to go to sleep, I was exhausted and just wanted to know how to get rid of all those "nasty images".

In my search I came across the last person who finally made sense and he told me that the others couldn't help me because I wasn't nuts, I just had a lot of trauma's and needed treatment for that. A few months after that I was able to go back to work like everybody else and live normally too, and finally sleep normally without having nightmares. In general the most psychologists are useless to people who really want to get better, it took me four or five years to actually come across one who'd take me seriously and actually genuinely wanted to help me get better, without trying to stuff my face with pills (I refused to take them). I know it is important to know that you have to fight your own demons, and a psych can't do that for you, but it actually nice to have one that treats you like a person and does not care about how much money he makes off you and supports you in recovering. And that is hard to come by, because a lot of them just don't give a shit as long as their bank accounts flourish.

I would also like to say that I did come across a lot of people who liked staying in their "victim" role and used the pity they got to their advantage. I was never one of those people, all I ever wanted was to get my life back on track and function like everybody else. I think there is an important distinction to be made in this: I had PTSD (well have, it never goes away) It is not who I am. In the other cases the people ARE/HAVE BECOME what they have and therefore are beyond help. You have to realize it's a problem and like every problem and challenge it is fixable. The moment you become your problem and like wallowing in self-pity, that I when you are beyond all help.

Just my 2 cents..


_________________________
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "otherwise you wouldn't have come here."
Alice didn't think that proved it at all: however she went on. "And how do you know that you're mad?"
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"
"I suppose so," said Alice.
"Well, then, " the Cat went on, "you see a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

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#342222 - 07/26/08 08:54 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Sakura]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
My bike did get stolen once actually, really though by choice I don't put myself into situations in which PTSD might be the result. Actually to tell you the truth I grew up in a pretty bad area, and indeed I did see many bad things. My point for clarification was not saying that everybody but veterans need to get over themselves, my question was about the "one" person who comes through the door who does need to get over themselves. Running a practice for the General Public will probably get you more "one's" than working with Veterans. I do think when you look at it from a ratio of illegitimate to legitimate disorders from a practice standpoint you would probably find that working with Veterans (specifically of a War) you would find more cut and dry illness. I always read things from different perspectives before I come to any conclusions, going back in the discussion I was having with Emerald you can see the entire dialog and you might get a better idea of it's content. Anyhow, I try not to classify groups of people because I realize the significance of individuality. I can appreciate your input though....it was very good reading.
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#342236 - 07/26/08 11:41 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Descendant]
Sakura Offline



Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 220
Loc: The Circus
Descendant, thank you for clarifying your point of view for me, glad to know I misinterpreted it. You are quite right about the practice for general public, it is harder because the "problems" are very diverse and many times not treatable, because the person does not, or is not ready to be helped, like you stated earlier.

With veterans it is a bit easier to diagnose and treat, but PTSD is a real bitch. I am actually also a moderator on a forum for people with PTSD, mostly for civilian people who have it, but a lot of veterans found their way there as well, just because they are civilians at that moment and have the same problems as members do/or did.

What I learned from the veterans frequenting our forum is that after all they went through for "our country" (Netherlands, don't know how veterans are treated in the US) they are treated like second hand citizens and shunned by society. Doctors, psychologist and social services for example do not take them and their problems seriously and it is a bloody shame! The only time the government shows respect is if you lost a leg or your life. Psychological problems are not taken seriously. Probably because it's not visible and what is not visible to many is not true. "so what if you've seen dead people? get over yourself". All of the veterans that I know, left on a "peace mission" and ended up in a war. They all say they never knew what they were getting themselves into. When they come home, the war was still in their heads and their lives were ruined.

Apart from that, what I noticed while moderating is that a lot of people on that forum are actually "psychic vampires" or constantly play the victim role. Or both. Like I said, they have become their problems and try to suck you dry and blame you for everything that goes wrong in their lives. In that case it's nice to be a mod there is a very nice option that I use a lot: it's called *ban* grin But those people that are the vampires are not the veterans, but the regular people.
_________________________
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "otherwise you wouldn't have come here."
Alice didn't think that proved it at all: however she went on. "And how do you know that you're mad?"
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"
"I suppose so," said Alice.
"Well, then, " the Cat went on, "you see a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

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#342262 - 07/26/08 04:20 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Sakura]
DravenX Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Lake Superior
Sakura -
Before my wife died, she worked as an Occupational Therapist for the Department of Veterans Affairs. She worked with many vets with PTSD. Many of her clients were TBI (traumatic brain injury) patients.
During this time I had a chance to 'peek behind the curtain' so to speak, in relation to how American vets with neurological and psychological damage are treated.
She spent most of her time wrestling with her administrators in order to be able to give any vet whom she worked with quality help. She told me she always felt like she was made to work with one hand tied behind her back.

To be very blunt - unless you are physically disabled, or of a high rank, the government doesn't give a fuck about the traumatized combat soldier. If you are a vet who has no complaints, you are in the great minority.

I know this might set off a reaction but, talking to a shrink and eating pills is a highly speculative science that is sucessfull only with a modest percentage of people who are submitted to it.

I'm not here to debate anything or claim I'm an expert of any kind - I just wanted to throw in my two cents worth.
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Hellbound . . . . .

"We must believe in free will; we have no choice."
Isaac Singer

"I am a vampire . . . bow down before me. Yeah right."

"The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors."
Sam Harris

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind."
Marquis De Sade

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#342277 - 07/26/08 06:43 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: DravenX]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
This post is actually in response to a lot of things that people have said.

The first thing that I would like to bring up is to Sakura. I am so sorry you had such a bad experience with Psychologists. I'm not sure if the psychologists you saw were in this country or not (thinking you said you used to live in Africa/Netherlands?) but if they were trying to shove pills at you in this country, they were very WRONG. Only a psychiatrist is allowed to prescribe medication and not a psychologist. Psychologists can make recommendations to your family doctor but to put ink to paper in writing a "script", that is a no go at this station.

The second thing I would like to bring up is the fact that yes, DravenX, you are indeed correct. Unless you are a high ranking official or you are physically disabled, no one gives a fuck about a soldier's mental health. My friend was raped and tortured while she was on active duty overseas. She just spent the last two years at Fort Knox, KY with Army doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists trying to get her life and her head back together.

The result? She was released with a 10% severance package and told that there was nothing wrong with her and she was making up all the terror, nightmares, seizures, and so on that were clouding her daily existance. 10 FUCKING PERCENT ladies and gentleman. A FUCKING PITTANCE for a soldier who left behind her husband, two children under age 5, and a relatively carefree way of life to serve her country. At times I am disgusted and ashamed to count myself as an American soldier for cases like this. I do know that Fort Knox is under a huge investigation now for not only her case but also many others that are similar.

I have no doubt that your wife felt like her hands were tied while she was working in the VA. At this point, I haven't had the experience of being shut down for my recommendations. To the best of my knowledge (unless my patients are lying to me) they are getting all the help and resources that I have recommended. My efforts have been greatly applauded by the supervisors I work for and so far so good. However, I will happily blow the whistle as soon as I feel I am being told to do things against my sense of what is right and wrong when it comes to assisting veterans or anyone else for that matter. The United States government puts me and many others in harms way all the time and the government better well start fucking paying for our traumas whether they be internal or external.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#342293 - 07/26/08 08:17 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: DravenX]
Sakura Offline



Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 220
Loc: The Circus
Originally Posted By: DravenX

To be very blunt - unless you are physically disabled, or of a high rank, the government doesn't give a fuck about the traumatized combat soldier. If you are a vet who has no complaints, you are in the great minority.


My point exactly, so in the US it isn't any different from the Netherlands as far as I can see. It kind of sucks for veterans because the geovernment doesn't take you seriously and society doesn't either, whilst in the cases of normal civilians it's just society that thinks we're "nuts" or should get over ourselves. That's probably why a lot of veterans come to my PTSD forum, because at least people who also have PTSD understand what they are going through and they can get support from that.

Originally Posted By: DravenX

I know this might set off a reaction but, talking to a shrink and eating pills is a highly speculative science that is sucessfull only with a modest percentage of people who are submitted to it.


I couldn't agree with you more!! The problem is that there are so many incompetent psychologists here and elsewhere (apart from the good ones who proposed EMDR) that that is the standard procedure nowadays. You talk, get pills and that's it. I'm a perfect example that it doesn't work and that there had to be another treatment, but they were just thinking about their bank account and nothing more. Oh well, in the end I found the precious needle in the haystack (even though it felt the other way around) and got the help I needed. Ah well, genuinely caring people who want to help like your wife or Emerald for example are very rare.

_________________________
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "otherwise you wouldn't have come here."
Alice didn't think that proved it at all: however she went on. "And how do you know that you're mad?"
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"
"I suppose so," said Alice.
"Well, then, " the Cat went on, "you see a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

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#342296 - 07/26/08 08:43 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Sakura Offline



Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 220
Loc: The Circus
Originally Posted By: Emerald

The first thing that I would like to bring up is to Sakura. I am so sorry you had such a bad experience with Psychologists. I'm not sure if the psychologists you saw were in this country or not (thinking you said you used to live in Africa/Netherlands?) but if they were trying to shove pills at you in this country, they were very WRONG. Only a psychiatrist is allowed to prescribe medication and not a psychologist. Psychologists can make recommendations to your family doctor but to put ink to paper in writing a "script", that is a no go at this station.


The problems started when I came back to the Netherlands, due to the traumatic experiences I lived through in Africa, so generally speaking it was at "home" Don't worry, it's not all bad, I did find a good Psychologist in the end, I just had to work and search hard to find him.

Just to clarify, here the "shrink" isn't allowed to prescribe meds, it's also the psychiatrist, but what they do is send you to one to get the meds. They pretend to listen and try to stuff your face with meds. The place I went to before is like a sort of chain of mental institutions where you can get the help you need, but the whole institution is one big pool of incompetent excuses for psychs. I went elsewhere and got what I needed, because if they weren't going to help me find my way to recovery, I would be damn sure I'd find someone who would. "Here, take a pill, it'll make you feel better".

Another perfect example: My mother also has PTSD and was treated at the same institution. She spent the last eight or nine years talking and taking pills. This year her psychologist told her that she was "healed" and could stop coming. When my mom suggested she wanted to quit taking meds, the woman went into a panic and said: "No! No! It is best if you stay on the pills because otherwise everything can come back and you will start off at zero again. She actually tried to stop, but the nightmares came back. You call that "healed'? I sure as hell don't. Well, at least she promised me she would go and visit the same person I did, so she would get adequate help and so she can get off that horrible med-crap.

As for the rest of your post, mostly about your friend, I am going to skip reacting to that, because it's going to make me rant grin reading it already makes me so effing angry, it's best not to go into that any further. AAAAAAR! You have my respect though for trying to help so many people, there should be a lot more people like you.



Edited by Sakura (07/26/08 08:44 PM)
_________________________
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "otherwise you wouldn't have come here."
Alice didn't think that proved it at all: however she went on. "And how do you know that you're mad?"
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"
"I suppose so," said Alice.
"Well, then, " the Cat went on, "you see a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

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#342329 - 07/27/08 08:15 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Sakura]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Originally Posted By: Sakura
She spent the last eight or nine years talking and taking pills. This year her psychologist told her that she was "healed" and could stop coming.


I imagine that I am just as outraged about your mother as you are about my friend. Are we still in the effing dark ages here? I learned way back in my Psychology 200 courses that trauma NEVER goes away. The best we can hope for is to manage it the best we can with the client's help. Medication is extremely useful in getting the client through the initial trauma. Then regression, desensitization, EFT, soul retrieval, etc.--whatever method you want to use is absolutely essential on an ongoing basis to try to keep your client sane and return them to a semi-normal type of life.

Originally Posted By: Sakura
As for the rest of your post, mostly about your friend, I am going to skip reacting to that, because it's going to make me rant grin reading it already makes me so effing angry, it's best not to go into that any further. AAAAAAR! You have my respect though for trying to help so many people, there should be a lot more people like you.


I completely understand. It was horseshit like this that prompted me to go into the field of psychology so that I could make a difference. I see the traumas all around me and I want to help those who truly want the help. As I've said before, if you are going to waste my time by coming to me with a "problem" that truly just needs "getting over", then please don't bother. Let me free up my schedule for the people who desperately want and need my help.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#342471 - 07/28/08 09:54 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
Go USA Basketball!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#342555 - 07/29/08 12:00 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: DravenX]
barrytheblade Offline
Banned Douche

Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 48
Loc: WA
I have PTSD from when I was in Kosovo and Bosnia. They told me to take some pills or get the hell out. So I got the hell out. Even back then I knew that these mind pills were some bad mojo. I'm glad I made the right decision. I didn't want anything messing with by thought processes or my attitude. If you can't control it on your own, then pills would just make you a zombie.

Sounded like a lot of Clockwork Orange stuff to me. Singin' in the rain...I'm singin' in the rain...

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#342567 - 07/29/08 04:05 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: barrytheblade]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
I am so sorry you had to deal with the Clockwork Orange type situation as well. My heart goes out to you and your family for your dealings with a horrible system.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#342611 - 07/29/08 09:37 AM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
Stay away from pills, they are only band-aids. Dr's who prescribe medicine to replace actual treatment should be avoided at all cost. Pills to treat any mental condition is only a guarantee to the Dr that your business will be continued for the duration. They don't want to cure you they just want to continue to take your money. If you were getting $10000 kick-backs from Pharmaceutical companies wouldn't you prolong any type of real cure in substitute for prescribing pills? If I was a Dr that would make my job alot easier, and I would be alot richer. Unfortunately I'm not a Dr, so I have to be warned of what goes on.
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#342638 - 07/29/08 12:47 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Descendant]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Unfortunately you are correct. The recent death of Heath Ledger is a case in point. Doctors are way too willing to shove pills at you rather then take the time to get to the root of your issues in other manners. Very sad.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#343601 - 08/03/08 01:27 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: Emerald]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Psychology itself is a worthy and worthwhile pursuit and area of study--no ifs, ands, or buts.

But, be warned, everyone, that many psychologists and psychiatrists initially got into da biz in hopes of fixing themselves first and foremost. I have met so many dysfunctional and dumb psychologists and psychiatrists, that I simply don't know where to begin.


Edited by TrojZyr (08/03/08 09:29 PM)
Edit Reason: doh! typo
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#343668 - 08/03/08 08:14 PM Re: Psychology question [Re: TrojZyr]
Pirate Offline


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Psychology itself is a worthy and worthwhile pursuit and area of study--no ifs, ands, or buts.

But, be warned, everyone, that many psychologists and psychiatrists initially got into da biz to hopes of fixing themselves first and foremost. I have met so many dysfunctional and dumb psychologists and psychiatrists, that I simply don't know where to begin.


I began to study psychology to close the noticeable gap I have in my ability to sympathize with others, or empathize. I have always studied human behavior, reading the thoughts of University professors in my textbooks has given me a lot of insight and filled in some of the blanks in my own studies. I now have a decent collection of psychological literature and what strikes me most about the science is that it is not exact. Sure, there are some traits inherent in all humans, like, say to be human is to be an apple pie. Give any Professor Of Psychology a knife and who knows how they'll cut it? This isn't to say I take the words of those educated individuals for granted. It's that some of what those people have concluded seems counter-intuitive, as if not everything they print is infallible proof by rather theory in practice. Guesswork, so to speak. This is why, when it comes to flexing my psychological muscles I ultimately stick to my instincts and intuition.

One thing that I noticed early on in my friends that began to take psychology classes is that they would immediately think they were able to solve everyones problems and were eager to put their newfound knowledge to use. The thing is those people just don't get it. They fill their minds with facts but do not truly understand the meaning behind them.

Maybe I'm trailing and meandering here but that's the gist of my experience with psychologists.
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