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#330397 - 05/26/08 07:35 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Ygraine]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Methinks sites created by actual Satanists are hassle-free...considering they don't promote illegal activities, rip off other people's stuff and are put together in a responsible manner,
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http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#330429 - 05/26/08 10:37 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Loupy]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566


Draw the line? How about we just toss the damn concept out the window? Seriously, no need to draw a line then or to know where.

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#330465 - 05/27/08 01:43 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: FalloutGod]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
laugh That video just about sums it all, thanks!

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#330467 - 05/27/08 01:58 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: reprobate]
Loupy Offline
Banned

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 48
Fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't bang it all in the censorship basket, or perhaps it's a semantics matter, but as far as media for instance is concerned, that's what it is they do, they censor, whether you, user Discipline or anyone else arguing for the argument's sake would like to admit to or not.

By the way, perhaps I'll too depart from this thread now, everyone or most, seem to be getting really heated about it, as if the topic was like ants in their underpants.

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#330500 - 05/27/08 05:47 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: son of death
As a free-thinking individual rules imposed upon me could be equated to ownership.

As a member of a society rules could be equated to an imposed state of respect, because those rules are agreed upon by the majority.

In our society those rules are decided by those who vote for them. And, unfortunately, everyone who votes is not necessarily guided by logic.

Promote self-education & there is no need for censorship or rules. promote the concept of individuality and there is no need for security, because we can self-police. If someone is harmful to you or those you care about, stop them. YOU are responsible.

Censorship is a means to control (or psychologically insert the concept of control into) speech. If you think your language needs to be controlled you will "watch what you say". In other words, you won't say things that you think will offend other people, i.e. political correctness. Therefore you learn to censor yourself. At that point you are being controlled psychologically.


Rolls on the floor, kicking his legs in the air screaming "No, no more, please, please!" attempting to breath through debilitating gales of laughter

Think yourself lucky that Ravenhael decided to grace you with a cogent answer to something as illogical and plain stupid as that post. Methinks you should log off from your computer and head into the woods to find some survivalist community, you'll probably fit in right at home there with their "rules are death" philosophy.
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#330501 - 05/27/08 05:55 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
I agree with Scion! This was the most idiotic post. I couldn't follow anything.

Geesshh. You better bring matches so you can start your campfire. No censorhip in the woods is there?
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YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#330504 - 05/27/08 06:02 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
.....Only to be eaten by a wild and rabid badger.

Oh the irony! smile
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#330507 - 05/27/08 06:11 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: ]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I wasn't aware that animals used objects as currency. That's very interesting to me - a new topic to research! I suppose I have noticed how my ferret hordes his treasures...

One could suggest that animals earn everything they have in their possession. They take it, make it, find it or kill it themselves. So the only reason for us to obey law made by those who haven't earned their currency (inheritance, for example) is force monopoly or personal (moral) agreement. So do we respect the force monopoly, agree with its reasoning or fear it? Christian obedience stems from fear of Hell or desire of Heaven, to the point that they usually seem to come to the conclusion that people who don't believe in those concepts are destined for immorality.

Maybe it boils down to: all rules are an expression of desire or respect or fear, since those are the primary drives of EVERY creature. Do animals respect? Is respect an evolution of fear?

Do animals displace their leaders when the majority disagree with them? We certainly don't. We follow unstable pack leaders. I'm not saying we're not animals, but I definitely see how obeying people we don't respect has separated us from NATURAL law. Yes that is how life is. But does that mean we should accept control by leaders we don't respect? Or only leaders we fear? If that's the case then we might as well all be fundamentalists or fascists.

You mentioned how impossible my suggestions were, but without idealism what's the point of existing? Better to believe & stagnate versus conceptualize & actualize? What about goals? Besides, if we are individuals then wouldn't a state of non-government (Anarchism) be part of evolving & maturing as a society? Natural law should be sufficient, it's part of what we are.

Also, I don't seem to remember referring to any of the ideas I've expressed as Satanic... I'm learning about something that seems to make sense to me, I never claimed to BE a Satanist OR otherwise. As well as mixing these ideas with anything, I'm only interested in discussion regarding the inspection of a set of brilliant ideas & how they relate to the world from the perspective of those who've dedicated themselves to understanding those ideas. I'm not sure how I've offended you by postulating. Sorry.

I never went to Berkeley.

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#330510 - 05/27/08 06:26 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Originally Posted By: son of death
Natural law should be sufficient, it's part of what we are.

I never claimed to BE a Satanist OR otherwise.


Modern society is not based on Natural law.

Are you a Satanist?
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#330517 - 05/27/08 07:37 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: shadowraven213]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I know modern society isn't based on natural law, but shouldn't it be? What's the point of even having a legal system if the punishment doesn't fit the crime?

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#330544 - 05/27/08 10:32 AM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: son of death]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Originally Posted By: son of death
One could suggest that animals earn everything they have in their possession. They take it, make it, find it or kill it themselves. So the only reason for us to obey law made by those who haven't earned their currency (inheritance, for example) is force monopoly or personal (moral) agreement.


Inheritance also exists in the natural world, since the offspring of the alpha leader have the most probabilities of become leaders when they reach maturity. Some times the leader of the pack secures his cubs' inheritance by killing the offspring of other males and fighting any possible competitors.

Quote:
Do animals displace their leaders when the majority disagree with them? We certainly don't. We follow unstable pack leaders. I'm not saying we're not animals, but I definitely see how obeying people we don't respect has separated us from NATURAL law. Yes that is how life is. But does that mean we should accept control by leaders we don't respect? Or only leaders we fear? If that's the case then we might as well all be fundamentalists or fascists.


Animals don't elect their leaders or follow them because they respect them or because there is a majority that agrees with the leadership. Animals have the same rule than us humans... they obey the leader because doing the opposite usually results in injury or death. In all cases the leader has the power to crush disobedience, either by biting the offender himself or having an armed force at his disposal.

Quote:
You mentioned how impossible my suggestions were, but without idealism what's the point of existing? Better to believe & stagnate versus conceptualize & actualize? What about goals? Besides, if we are individuals then wouldn't a state of non-government (Anarchism) be part of evolving & maturing as a society? Natural law should be sufficient, it's part of what we are.


The problem with Anarchism is that is based in the idea that everybody will be responsible and intelligent enough as to rule himself. You said "if we are individuals" and the problem is not everyone is an individual. An immense part of mankind is composed by people too stupid or too lazy to govern themselves. Herds need a herder, hence the necessity for leaders and governments.
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#330586 - 05/27/08 03:00 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Old_Pig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Animals do sometimes displace unstable leaders. Of course, this usually happens when the risks and pains associated with continuing to obey the leader start to seriously outweigh the risk involved in confronting him.

Animals can also punish naughty group members without even having to call in the leader, because they all share a common understanding of the rules.

Yes, even animals have rules. More sophisticated and complex animal societies tend to have more sophisticated and nuanced rules, and smaller or less sophisticated ones have fewer rules. Smarter animals, as a general rule, live in more complex societies or groups, and less intelligent animals tend to live in less complex ones. (And yeah, herein lies a kind of chicken-egg dilemma.)

But I digress wink . Civilized humans as a whole can neither fully retreat nor revert back to "natural law" at this point. Pandora's box has been opened, and it can't be closed again. If you tried to get people to fully revert back to natural law, most of them would go kicking and screaming. Most people wouldn't know what to do with themselves, and in time, you'd find that people were re-creating the same-old same-old "artificial" hierarchies and standards and rules all over again.

Should more things in society be based on natural law? Yes! Will some of them be? Perhaps. Should all things be? No! Because, can all things be, realistically? No!

Idealism isn't all bad. Hopes, dreams, wants, and ambitions can keep us going. Idealism just has to be tempered with realism, so that you can be sure you're betting on a horse who has a decent chance of winning. If you place all your hopes and dreams with Ol' Epoxy, you may end up breaking the bank.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#330588 - 05/27/08 03:11 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: TrojZyr]
FalloutGod Offline
Intellectual Black Hole

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 566
I don't know who said it, nor do I think it is awfully relevant to the point. Yet the saying that anarchy is the mother of law rings true to anyone with cognitive ability. With no rules or standards to adhere to there will be someone who will create them. There will be those who agree with them and in turn impose their rules and standards on others. If they are strong enough and succeed they would break the anarchy. They would create law and enforce it.


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#330592 - 05/27/08 03:39 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: FalloutGod]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
By that very reasoning anarchy is the absence of law, and if law is always created from anarchy then the more natural state of present day humans is to live within a society with laws (no matter what those laws are) and not anarchy.

As Trojzyr says, the pandora's box of human development has now been opened, the only way we could move into a "simpler" state of existence would be to regress somehow. It could be argued that with technological development will come a smaller requirement for a rigid law read: post-scarcity societies like the Culture in Iain Bank's books - they have no laws because there is no scarcity, hence no ownership, hence no need to compete for survival. The model of society they live in is extremely different and in many ways simpler.

The fact that no society has chosen to live in arnarchy for any length of time just goes to show it's not a desirous state to be in.
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#330598 - 05/27/08 04:22 PM Re: Censorship - Where To Draw The Line [Re: Scion]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
I've always viewed Anarchy as the state after revolution before change. A step.

So I'm gathering the consensus as: we humans, as a sophisticated animal society, have evolved away from purely natural law. We cannot revert back to that system (that, theoretically, may have never existed in TOTAL absence of some natural leadership acknowledgment) because we have become so separate from it through convenience & exponential advancement (evolutionary, innovative, etc.) potential. And because that is what we've become. The product of our "intellectual property".

And that's not a bad thing. Just different.

I almost suggested the possibility that we're evolving away from being animals, but upon reflection that would be impossible because whether or not we evolve to be different does not change what we are.

Am I getting closer?

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