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#344886 - 08/09/08 08:18 AM A philosophical question regarding pain
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
Hello

Today, as in most days for me, I find myself in quite a bit of physical pain. Upon reflection, I find myself wondering what the point of it is. I'd always viewed pain as an indicator that something should be done to alleviate it or seek a source for it. What, I then wondered, was the point for ancient man who was ill equipped to diagnose the cause or to treat the symptom? What of all other organisms who can feel pain? What is the biological point of it for them? Those who walk the right hand path will say that pain is a teacher so that one can appreciate the glory of the 'maker' when one is feeling well.

What about a left hand perspective? I realize that there is no official church perspective on this, I'm just curious about what other left hand path folks think about this.

Thank you, as ever, to those who wish to share their thoughts.

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#344887 - 08/09/08 08:26 AM A biological and behavioural answer. [Re: Fnord]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
I agree with your assessment that it's simply a messenger informing one of something going on with one's body.

As for before modern medicine - it's not just a matter of being able to cure the thing. It's also about not making the thing worse. Think of the reflex reaction to withdraw one's hand from a hot object, for example. Without the pain that causes this, many animals would not mind being burned (or bitten, or scratched, etc).

Thus, because of pain, they learn to avoid such things, and thus be more likely to live long enough to reproduce, thus furthering the gene that says "feel pain when damage is caused".

That's a complete lay opinion, though it seems sound enough to me.

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#344888 - 08/09/08 08:35 AM Re: A biological and behavioural answer. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
Without the pain that causes this, many animals would not mind being burned (or bitten, or scratched, etc).


That's very true, hadn't thought of it exactly that way.

I think what I'm really trying to get at is prolonged pain, though, versus something instantaneous that goes away after a while. I didn't really make that clear as I wasn't thinking about the distinction.

While I do have your ear though I've been waiting for an opportunity to compliment you on your avatar. It's very appealing, I like it quite a bit. Also, I've found your maze and haven't come close to solving it yet so your money is still safe laugh

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#344889 - 08/09/08 08:44 AM Re: A biological and behavioural answer. [Re: Fnord]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Originally Posted By: skullfarmer
I think what I'm really trying to get at is prolonged pain, though, versus something instantaneous that goes away after a while. I didn't really make that clear as I wasn't thinking about the distinction.


I think there are several factors at large here:

1) Having chronic pain does not make one much less likely to survive to reproduce, especially in the case of females. Therefore, it may be one of those things that isn't helpful but isn't harmful either, so just stays there. Like the human ability to wiggle one's ears. Utterly useless now, but doesn't cause a problem, so we don't lose it.

2) A chronic pain will tend to encourage one to retire somewhat, hide oneself away, not exert oneself too much, and avoid confrontations. This in itself may aid healing, or at the very least stave off death for a little bit longer.

Quote:
While I do have your ear though I've been waiting for an opportunity to compliment you on your avatar. It's very appealing, I like it quite a bit.


Why, thank you. I like it too jack

Quote:
Also, I've found your maze and haven't come close to solving it yet so your money is still safe laugh


The furthest I'm aware of someone getting through it, so far, is 8/23.

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#344890 - 08/09/08 08:52 AM Re: A biological and behavioural answer. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Fnord Offline


Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 215
Loc: Texas
8 huh? Well I shall have to strengthen my resolve with all of this retirement time I should be taking advantage of smile

In all seriousness I think your perspectives are right on and I've found value/wisdom in your points. Thank you for responding!

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#344892 - 08/09/08 08:58 AM Re: A biological and behavioural answer. [Re: Fnord]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
Originally Posted By: skullfarmer
8 huh? Well I shall have to strengthen my resolve with all of this retirement time I should be taking advantage of smile


Indeed perhaps!

Quote:
In all seriousness I think your perspectives are right on and I've found value/wisdom in your points. Thank you for responding!


You are most welcome.

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#344928 - 08/09/08 12:03 PM Re: A biological and behavioural answer. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
I've gotten the first two riddles figured out. Working on the third as we speak. I love riddles. Great mental gymnastics.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#344929 - 08/09/08 12:06 PM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Fnord]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
That pain you feel is weakness leaving your body.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#345063 - 08/10/08 06:38 AM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zardex Offline


Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 310
From the view point of neurology, pain is a hallucination.
It sometimes serves a useful purpose and sometimes it's more like an error in the system.

From evolutionary biology point of view I agree with Warlock Linguascelesta.

From a more philosophical view point I think Priest LeviathanXIII said it best.
_________________________
"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#345093 - 08/10/08 09:39 AM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Fnord]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3976
Loc: The Deep South
The error is thinking everything has a "point" or "purpose". That error comes from the ancient human habit of thinking everything in life is part of a plan designed by a guy/guys up there.

There is no point. There is a biological reason for pain, as it has been already explained here, but there is not really a point if you try to rationalize it.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#345102 - 08/10/08 10:26 AM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Fnord]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Better question…
What's your choice but to endure it?
Are you willing and ready to end your life because of it?

If not, the point of pain is that, in our biological minds, it's still better than non-existence.


Edited by The_Lightning (08/10/08 10:44 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#345107 - 08/10/08 10:43 AM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: The_Lightning]
Emerald Offline



Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 97
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
If not, the point of pain is that, in out biological minds, it's still better than non-existence.


An interesting way of looking at pain that I had never thought of before. Thank you for giving me something new to ponder.
_________________________
Eternally,
Emerald

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#345119 - 08/10/08 11:27 AM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Fnord]
foreverlearning Offline


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 104
Pain is your mind telling your body that something is wrong and should be looked into. Same with persistant itches. Pain can help protect you from further damage (such as with the fire example) or warn you to take it easy, if possible (prolonged pain).
Also, with training, you can teach yourself not to feel pain. There are physical ways to go about it, and mental ways. This is an even more fascinating topic to me, and is another great example of the mind's power.

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#345167 - 08/10/08 03:31 PM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Fnord]
son of death Offline


Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 57
Pain is mentally & emotionally useful. I find that suffering for others' benefit plays a large part in life. Whether that suffering is work-related, family-related, etc. Just because you're in a position to suffer for others doesn't mean that it's negative but, still better when you're in control & it's for your personal goals.

Tattoos & piercings are my way of "taking my suffering back". In other words, to suffer for something I enjoy. Getting tattooed sometimes gives me pleasurable goosebumps, I wonder if that could be purely from the mental satisfaction?

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#345290 - 08/11/08 01:11 AM Re: A philosophical question regarding pain [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
That is at least what the Marine Corps tells you. coopdevil
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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