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Angered and ashamed #345914
08/13/08 08:29 PM
08/13/08 08:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 47
USA
Rudmer Offline OP
Rudmer  Offline OP

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 47
USA
As Satanists, I think we should all be enraged when the authorities, those who are supposed to uphold the law, overstep its boundaries and become criminals themselves. Please read: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/13/town.curfew.ap/index.html

This is one of the rare times I am absolutely ashamed to say that I live in Arkansas, and one of the even rarer times when I actually agree with the American Civil Liberties Union. Apparently, the mayor, police, and citizens of Helena-West Helena think that “some infringement on constitutional rights (such as the right of peaceful assembly, right to travel freely, and freedom from unreasonable searches or detention) is OK,” provided that crime levels are high enough. In effect, the mayor has declared a state of martial law, complete with curfew and heavily armed paramilitary forces on patrol.

“Papers, please. Papers.”

That law-abiding citizens should be subject to this sort of treatment simply to curb illegal activity is absolutely outrageous, and steps far beyond the legal authority given to a mayor, no matter what the situation. Helena-West Helena is not in a state of war, nor is it experiencing a natural disaster: even if it was, the mayor does not have the right or authority to declare martial law. The law does not afford police the right to stop anyone and everyone, for any and every reason, whenever and wherever they so choose.

By encouraging, or even allowing, this unconstitutional overstepping of legal bounds, the citizens of Helena-West Helena are setting a dangerous precedent. If the mayor and police see the current situation as permissible, what is their response going to be to future issues, such as protests, riots, even political rallies? Helena-West Helena is already practically a police state, so what’s to stop the further brutal suppression of law abiding citizens? As I said before, “Papers, please. Papers.”

My advice to the citizens of Helena-West Helena (and everyone else, for that matter):

Know your rights.

You have the right to remain silent. Look it up, but I believe the only pieces of information you are required to provide is your name, age, and your license, registration, and proof of insurance if you are driving at the time of your detainment.

You have the right to an attorney should exercising your right to silence cause the police to arrest you – in fact, the first words out of your mouth if arrested should be “I want a lawyer. I will not answer any questions until I have consulted with one. And I want my phone call.”

You have the right to deny police the permission to search your person, your vehicle, and your home.

And you have a right to own a firearm, if acquired legally, and the right to use said firearm in self-defense against the criminals who apparently are plaguing your town. I would recommend you do so, if you have any desire to repeal the police-state that is currently in existence. The criminals will be much less likely to shoot up your home if they know that they will be shot back.


~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer] #345922
08/13/08 09:10 PM
08/13/08 09:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,214
Lust Offline
Lust  Offline

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,214
I see nothing wrong with this.

"The area under curfew, in what used to be a West Helena neighborhood, sits among abandoned homes and occupied residences in disrepair."

Sounds like a "nice" way of saying crack area to me.

What these officers are doing is noble, and I salute them! One thing is certain, you would hate my methods.

Last edited by Tier Instinct; 08/13/08 09:11 PM. Reason: typo

�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer] #345928
08/13/08 09:35 PM
08/13/08 09:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 48
Near Ottawa, On
Corvin Offline
CoS Member
Corvin  Offline
CoS Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 48
Near Ottawa, On
As a Satanist the first question you should be asking yourself is "Does this affect me?"

I don't think that you live in this "crack hood" nor does anyone that you regularly associate with. And assuming that you really are a Satanist then you have nothing to fear from the police other then a minor inconvenience, right?

So this story really doesn't hold much for me as a Satanist. If you're trying to "rally the troops" over a perceived injustice you're in the wrong place.

Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Corvin] #345962
08/13/08 11:44 PM
08/13/08 11:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 100
North Carolina
Hixem Offline
Hixem  Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 100
North Carolina
Although Corvin's statements are aimed at the original poster, I would like to respond his points and questions. I don't speak for Rudmer, but I endorse his post.

Quote:

As a Satanist the first question you should be asking yourself is "Does this affect me?"


This is happening in the poster's state of residence. The actions of the city council, which have not been curtailed by the state government, definately impact him.

Quote:

I don't think that you live in this "crack hood" nor does anyone that you regularly associate with. And assuming that you really are a Satanist then you have nothing to fear from the police other then a minor inconvenience, right?


I have lived in a "crack hood". As a law-abiding citizen I did fear more from the police than minor inconvenience. I would fear a bunch of rednecks carrying shotguns and assault rifles, with sanction to harass citizens without cause. This is especially true if I was a poor, underclass member of the community.

Quote:

So this story really doesn't hold much for me as a Satanist. If you're trying to "rally the troops" over a perceived injustice you're in the wrong place.


Typical rhetoric for the last several years. As long as it doesn't affect me, let's strip basic human rights and constitutionally mandated freedoms. It will make us feel safer.


Be the White Rabbit.
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: ] #345976
08/14/08 12:21 AM
08/14/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 137
WA
HorrorCore Offline
HorrorCore  Offline

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 137
WA
I agree with Ravenael. under normal circumstances the officers behavior would be totally unacceptable. But this sounds like a pretty dirty neighborhood. Randomly talking with the residents to look out for suspicious behavior doesn't seem THAT extreme.


Do you believe in the truth? Or do you seek it?
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer] #345980
08/14/08 12:37 AM
08/14/08 12:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,785
America
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member
Jack_Lantern  Offline
CoS Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,785
America
Quote:
Apparently, the mayor, police, and citizens of Helena-West Helena think that “some infringement on constitutional rights (such as the right of peaceful assembly, right to travel freely, and freedom from unreasonable searches or detention) is OK,” provided that crime levels are high enough. In effect, the mayor has declared a state of martial law, complete with curfew and heavily armed paramilitary forces on patrol.


Nothing wrong with temporary martial law, especially to get a crime ridden area under control. The alternative is to let it fester and spread. Then the people living in those areas will only have rights on paper, because the criminals will own the streets. You prefer this alternative?


"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern] #345981
08/14/08 12:47 AM
08/14/08 12:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,234
1313 Mockingbird Lane
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member
Evil_Eve  Offline
CoS Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,234
1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:
Nothing wrong with temporary martial law


Temporary being the key word.

What is 'temporary' and what are the time constraints (given 'temporary Martial Law')?


Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.

Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern] #345989
08/14/08 01:11 AM
08/14/08 01:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,511
Unknown User Offline
Banned
Unknown User  Offline
Banned

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,511
I doubt anyone here is going to lose to much sleep over the fact the some drug-dealing scumbags are getting AR-15 should up their grills.

It used to be that common criminals, like the ones mentioned in the poster's original article, we're dealt with a lot more effectively in days gone by.

Of course today these scumbags have "rights" and "civil liberties" coming out the ying-yang, not to mention legions of leftist lawyers salivating at the chance to "stick it to the Man" by abetting their felonious lives with free legal representation.

So the cops are cracking the heads of lowlifes and shitheels? Boo-fucking-hoo.

Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Evil_Eve] #345991
08/14/08 01:14 AM
08/14/08 01:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,785
America
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member
Jack_Lantern  Offline
CoS Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,785
America
Quote:
What is 'temporary' and what are the time constraints (given 'temporary Martial Law')?


What are the parameters of the problem that the temporary martial law is meant to solve? This is a rhetorical question of course, I'm not a law enforcement expert.


"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer] #345995
08/14/08 01:38 AM
08/14/08 01:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 410
Florida, USA
Darkahn Offline
Darkahn  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 410
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rudmer
As Satanists..


I stopped reading there.


Group-think is incredibly unhealthy, especially when it relates to the media.


Meine Ehre heißt Macht

Undercroft

Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer] #346001
08/14/08 02:07 AM
08/14/08 02:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,000
Pre-Apocalypolis
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock
Roho_the_Rooster  Offline
CoS Warlock

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,000
Pre-Apocalypolis
I saw this post earlier, before there were any replies. I thought I would wait to see if my hunch was correct. It was.
Even under normal circumstances, it may be difficult to drum up any applause for the American Criminal Liberties Union...I mean "Civil" Liberties. It is damn near impossible when the police are threatened for doing their job...protect and serve.

This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer] #346002
08/14/08 02:19 AM
08/14/08 02:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,232
Point Nemo in Pacific Ocean
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister
Nemo  Offline
CoS Magister

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,232
Point Nemo in Pacific Ocean
Politics is concerned with just such issues.

We have a forum in the members-only section downstairs to discuss the ins-and-outs of such things.

These issues are not as simple as they seem.

Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Nemo] #346005
08/14/08 02:58 AM
08/14/08 02:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 47
USA
Rudmer Offline OP
Rudmer  Offline OP

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 47
USA
Magister Nemo, I did not intend to bring politics into this, and apologize if that is what I have accomplished. My focus was more upon the legality (the Church of Satan does espouse obedience to and enforcement of the law, correct?)and other ramifications of what is going on in Helena-West Helena.

I am not a rebel without a cause. I do not rebel against anything and everything simply for the sake of rebelling. I am a law-abiding, generally peaceful person. I rebel only against something that I feel is truly worth rebelling against, and this just so happens to be one of those issues (besides, is espousing that the law be upheld really rebelling? I'd argue not.) I have at least one friend in Helena-West Helena, and he does not live in the "crack neighborhood," yet has still encountered problems since this has been instituted. For those of you who didn't read the article, the city counsel voted unanimously to allow the mayor to extend the curfew and de facto martial law to the entire city -- every citizen in Helena-West Helena, or even those simply passing through, is affected by this, including my friend. I am loyal to those who I feel deserve it, and so this issue is very personal for me.

Just because something doesn't affect me directly does not mean it is not worthy of my attention and concern. That is ignorant and self-destructive thinking. A saying I've heard about killing Jews and homosexuals comes to mind...

Neither am I trying to "drum up the troops." If you don't care about this topic, say so, or even better, keep your mouth shut.

My thanks to Hixem for saying in my absence what I would have said myself, and for saying it so succinctly.


~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.
Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Nemo] #346007
08/14/08 03:02 AM
08/14/08 03:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 100
North Carolina
Hixem Offline
Hixem  Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 100
North Carolina
Legal declaration of martial law is a reasonable response. The governor of Arkansas has the authority to declare martial law, deploying the national guard to enforce it.

The mayor of an impoverished Arkansas town does not have the authority to impose a 24-hour curfew and suspend constitutionally guaranteed rights.

All the criminals detained under these conditions will walk.

Whatever your moral stance on the issue, this is illegal. All other arguments are irrelevant. Only criminals and their lawyers will benefit.


Be the White Rabbit.
Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Darkahn] #346008
08/14/08 03:09 AM
08/14/08 03:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,785
America
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member
Jack_Lantern  Offline
CoS Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,785
America
Ihr worten klingeln wahr.


"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin
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