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#345914 - 08/13/08 01:29 PM Angered and ashamed
Rudmer Offline


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
As Satanists, I think we should all be enraged when the authorities, those who are supposed to uphold the law, overstep its boundaries and become criminals themselves. Please read: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/13/town.curfew.ap/index.html

This is one of the rare times I am absolutely ashamed to say that I live in Arkansas, and one of the even rarer times when I actually agree with the American Civil Liberties Union. Apparently, the mayor, police, and citizens of Helena-West Helena think that “some infringement on constitutional rights (such as the right of peaceful assembly, right to travel freely, and freedom from unreasonable searches or detention) is OK,” provided that crime levels are high enough. In effect, the mayor has declared a state of martial law, complete with curfew and heavily armed paramilitary forces on patrol.

“Papers, please. Papers.”

That law-abiding citizens should be subject to this sort of treatment simply to curb illegal activity is absolutely outrageous, and steps far beyond the legal authority given to a mayor, no matter what the situation. Helena-West Helena is not in a state of war, nor is it experiencing a natural disaster: even if it was, the mayor does not have the right or authority to declare martial law. The law does not afford police the right to stop anyone and everyone, for any and every reason, whenever and wherever they so choose.

By encouraging, or even allowing, this unconstitutional overstepping of legal bounds, the citizens of Helena-West Helena are setting a dangerous precedent. If the mayor and police see the current situation as permissible, what is their response going to be to future issues, such as protests, riots, even political rallies? Helena-West Helena is already practically a police state, so what’s to stop the further brutal suppression of law abiding citizens? As I said before, “Papers, please. Papers.”

My advice to the citizens of Helena-West Helena (and everyone else, for that matter):

Know your rights.

You have the right to remain silent. Look it up, but I believe the only pieces of information you are required to provide is your name, age, and your license, registration, and proof of insurance if you are driving at the time of your detainment.

You have the right to an attorney should exercising your right to silence cause the police to arrest you – in fact, the first words out of your mouth if arrested should be “I want a lawyer. I will not answer any questions until I have consulted with one. And I want my phone call.”

You have the right to deny police the permission to search your person, your vehicle, and your home.

And you have a right to own a firearm, if acquired legally, and the right to use said firearm in self-defense against the criminals who apparently are plaguing your town. I would recommend you do so, if you have any desire to repeal the police-state that is currently in existence. The criminals will be much less likely to shoot up your home if they know that they will be shot back.
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~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.

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#345922 - 08/13/08 02:10 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I see nothing wrong with this.

"The area under curfew, in what used to be a West Helena neighborhood, sits among abandoned homes and occupied residences in disrepair."

Sounds like a "nice" way of saying crack area to me.

What these officers are doing is noble, and I salute them! One thing is certain, you would hate my methods.


Edited by Tier Instinct (08/13/08 02:11 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#345928 - 08/13/08 02:35 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Corvin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 48
Loc: Near Ottawa, On
As a Satanist the first question you should be asking yourself is "Does this affect me?"

I don't think that you live in this "crack hood" nor does anyone that you regularly associate with. And assuming that you really are a Satanist then you have nothing to fear from the police other then a minor inconvenience, right?

So this story really doesn't hold much for me as a Satanist. If you're trying to "rally the troops" over a perceived injustice you're in the wrong place.

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#345962 - 08/13/08 04:44 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Corvin]
Hixem Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 100
Loc: North Carolina
Although Corvin's statements are aimed at the original poster, I would like to respond his points and questions. I don't speak for Rudmer, but I endorse his post.

Quote:

As a Satanist the first question you should be asking yourself is "Does this affect me?"


This is happening in the poster's state of residence. The actions of the city council, which have not been curtailed by the state government, definately impact him.

Quote:

I don't think that you live in this "crack hood" nor does anyone that you regularly associate with. And assuming that you really are a Satanist then you have nothing to fear from the police other then a minor inconvenience, right?


I have lived in a "crack hood". As a law-abiding citizen I did fear more from the police than minor inconvenience. I would fear a bunch of rednecks carrying shotguns and assault rifles, with sanction to harass citizens without cause. This is especially true if I was a poor, underclass member of the community.

Quote:

So this story really doesn't hold much for me as a Satanist. If you're trying to "rally the troops" over a perceived injustice you're in the wrong place.


Typical rhetoric for the last several years. As long as it doesn't affect me, let's strip basic human rights and constitutionally mandated freedoms. It will make us feel safer.
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#345976 - 08/13/08 05:21 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: ]
HorrorCore Offline


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 137
Loc: WA
I agree with Ravenael. under normal circumstances the officers behavior would be totally unacceptable. But this sounds like a pretty dirty neighborhood. Randomly talking with the residents to look out for suspicious behavior doesn't seem THAT extreme.
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#345980 - 08/13/08 05:37 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:
Apparently, the mayor, police, and citizens of Helena-West Helena think that “some infringement on constitutional rights (such as the right of peaceful assembly, right to travel freely, and freedom from unreasonable searches or detention) is OK,” provided that crime levels are high enough. In effect, the mayor has declared a state of martial law, complete with curfew and heavily armed paramilitary forces on patrol.


Nothing wrong with temporary martial law, especially to get a crime ridden area under control. The alternative is to let it fester and spread. Then the people living in those areas will only have rights on paper, because the criminals will own the streets. You prefer this alternative?
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#345981 - 08/13/08 05:47 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:
Nothing wrong with temporary martial law


Temporary being the key word.

What is 'temporary' and what are the time constraints (given 'temporary Martial Law')?
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Magistra Nadramia.

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Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#345989 - 08/13/08 06:11 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
I doubt anyone here is going to lose to much sleep over the fact the some drug-dealing scumbags are getting AR-15 should up their grills.

It used to be that common criminals, like the ones mentioned in the poster's original article, we're dealt with a lot more effectively in days gone by.

Of course today these scumbags have "rights" and "civil liberties" coming out the ying-yang, not to mention legions of leftist lawyers salivating at the chance to "stick it to the Man" by abetting their felonious lives with free legal representation.

So the cops are cracking the heads of lowlifes and shitheels? Boo-fucking-hoo.

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#345991 - 08/13/08 06:14 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Evil_Eve]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:
What is 'temporary' and what are the time constraints (given 'temporary Martial Law')?


What are the parameters of the problem that the temporary martial law is meant to solve? This is a rhetorical question of course, I'm not a law enforcement expert.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#345995 - 08/13/08 06:38 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rudmer
As Satanists..


I stopped reading there.


Group-think is incredibly unhealthy, especially when it relates to the media.
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#346001 - 08/13/08 07:07 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 7000
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I saw this post earlier, before there were any replies. I thought I would wait to see if my hunch was correct. It was.
Even under normal circumstances, it may be difficult to drum up any applause for the American Criminal Liberties Union...I mean "Civil" Liberties. It is damn near impossible when the police are threatened for doing their job...protect and serve.
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#346002 - 08/13/08 07:19 PM This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13134
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Politics is concerned with just such issues.

We have a forum in the members-only section downstairs to discuss the ins-and-outs of such things.

These issues are not as simple as they seem.
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#346005 - 08/13/08 07:58 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Nemo]
Rudmer Offline


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
Magister Nemo, I did not intend to bring politics into this, and apologize if that is what I have accomplished. My focus was more upon the legality (the Church of Satan does espouse obedience to and enforcement of the law, correct?)and other ramifications of what is going on in Helena-West Helena.

I am not a rebel without a cause. I do not rebel against anything and everything simply for the sake of rebelling. I am a law-abiding, generally peaceful person. I rebel only against something that I feel is truly worth rebelling against, and this just so happens to be one of those issues (besides, is espousing that the law be upheld really rebelling? I'd argue not.) I have at least one friend in Helena-West Helena, and he does not live in the "crack neighborhood," yet has still encountered problems since this has been instituted. For those of you who didn't read the article, the city counsel voted unanimously to allow the mayor to extend the curfew and de facto martial law to the entire city -- every citizen in Helena-West Helena, or even those simply passing through, is affected by this, including my friend. I am loyal to those who I feel deserve it, and so this issue is very personal for me.

Just because something doesn't affect me directly does not mean it is not worthy of my attention and concern. That is ignorant and self-destructive thinking. A saying I've heard about killing Jews and homosexuals comes to mind...

Neither am I trying to "drum up the troops." If you don't care about this topic, say so, or even better, keep your mouth shut.

My thanks to Hixem for saying in my absence what I would have said myself, and for saying it so succinctly.
_________________________
~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.

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#346007 - 08/13/08 08:02 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Nemo]
Hixem Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 100
Loc: North Carolina
Legal declaration of martial law is a reasonable response. The governor of Arkansas has the authority to declare martial law, deploying the national guard to enforce it.

The mayor of an impoverished Arkansas town does not have the authority to impose a 24-hour curfew and suspend constitutionally guaranteed rights.

All the criminals detained under these conditions will walk.

Whatever your moral stance on the issue, this is illegal. All other arguments are irrelevant. Only criminals and their lawyers will benefit.
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#346008 - 08/13/08 08:09 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Darkahn]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Ihr worten klingeln wahr.
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#346010 - 08/13/08 08:12 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:
My focus was more upon the legality (the Church of Satan does espouse obedience to and enforcement of the law, correct?)and other ramifications of what is going on in Helena-West Helena.


Yes, but opinions of what should be lawful or unlawful and what is lawful or unlawful are two different things. The latter is a reality, the former merely an opinion.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#346011 - 08/13/08 08:13 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Hixem]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Silence is consent, if the state does not oppose this, then they are consenting to it's legality.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#346012 - 08/13/08 08:14 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Originally Posted By: Jack_Lantern
Ihr worten klingeln wahr.


Ja, the words do indeed ring true.

Unhealthy indeed.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#346020 - 08/13/08 08:45 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3976
Loc: The Deep South
I used to live in a place where the official law was in opposition with my personal tastes.

I moved.
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#346029 - 08/13/08 09:26 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: ]
Rudmer Offline


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
I like it where I live just fine, thank you very much -- who are you to assume I don't? My family, friends, and love are here. Gas is cheap, jobs are plentiful, and I am getting paid to educate myself at a reasonably distinguished university. All of these drastically outweigh any complaints I may have. But as stated before, just because something does not immediately and directly affect my life does not mean it is not worth my attention and concern. The "saying" I was thinking of earlier, and which I shall again reference, is actually a poem entitled "First they came..." by Martin Niemöller:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out
.

Though he was talking about Nazis, I believe his point holds true.


Edited by Rudmer (08/13/08 09:26 PM)
_________________________
~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.

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#346032 - 08/13/08 10:03 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: ]
Rudmer Offline


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JustAnotherBeast
Do what works for you.


No shit, Sherlock. That's like telling water to run downhill.
_________________________
~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.

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#346033 - 08/13/08 10:29 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:
Though he was talking about Nazis, I believe his point holds true.


Not really. Your analogy is poor and mismatched to the situation. These are not political dissidents being jailed for their beliefs. These are criminals being jailed for breaking the law. Whether your obfuscation of this fact is intentional or merely a product of sloppy thinking I am not sure of yet, but as of now I'm leaning toward the later.
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#346035 - 08/13/08 10:37 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Rudmer Offline


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
Quote:
These are not political dissidents being jailed for their beliefs. These are criminals being jailed for breaking the law.


My obfuscation of this fact was quite intentional, for in making my comparison I was not concerned with the specific crimes (or lack thereof) of the accused. I simply wanted to reference the broader thinking of the poem: ignoring an injustice because it does not immediately and directly affect you is a potentially self-destructive act.


Edited by Rudmer (08/13/08 10:47 PM)
_________________________
~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.

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#346041 - 08/13/08 11:08 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Then why aren't you?


Changing your own world is alot more gratifying than changing the world.

It's easier, too, than complaining about something of which you have no power over.

Leave the complaining about random events on the news to the lifeless strand of bloggers, or old god-fearing hags bitching at their TV screen.


Or perhaps you're still in that silly idealism stage.


If it's that important to you, perhaps you should get involved in law enforcement, or the legislature, rather than expecting an international cabal of individuals to really give two shits about what happens in some place many of them have never even heard of. This isn't PETA or GreenPeace.


If we were on the political boards, and it was brought up as a political topic, rather than some sort of 'Satanic call to action', then as a (albeit socially liberal) fascist, I might have given it a wider glance.

But we're not. wink
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#346044 - 08/13/08 11:15 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Danke schön. wink
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#346046 - 08/13/08 11:20 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Darkahn]
Rudmer Offline


Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
Did I ever ask for advice or counsel (that's the correct spelling for that particular usage of the word, by the way, JustAnotherBeast)in this thread? If I did, will you please point me to where I did so, so that I may apologize as common decency requires? Otherwise, let's turn down the intensity a bit, shall we? Up until the post about running water downhill, I had no malignant intent towards you, JustAnotherBeast, and although I did not do so previously, I am now going to assume that you did not have any either.

Darkahn makes a good point, one of which I occasionally loose sight. But I think that in this case, "changing the world" is also changing my own world, at least a little bit. I've posted this thread elsewhere in the behemoth that is the internet, with some interesting and effective results. And I do not believe that I am being idealistic (those days are long gone) when I simply want the law to be upheld by those whose job it is to uphold it. That falls well within the realm of the reasonable.


Edited by Rudmer (08/13/08 11:21 PM)
_________________________
~ Rudmer ~

The problem with the world is stupidity. We should just remove the safety labels from everything and let the problem fix itself.

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#346058 - 08/14/08 12:58 AM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Why do you live in such a neighborhood?
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#346060 - 08/14/08 01:51 AM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:
My obfuscation of this fact was quite intentional, for in making my comparison I was not concerned with the specific crimes (or lack thereof) of the accused. I simply wanted to reference the broader thinking of the poem: ignoring an injustice because it does not immediately and directly affect you is a potentially self-destructive act.


But I do not agree that an injustice has been committed. In fact, I think the only injustice would be to allow citizens to continue living with this lawlessness because some people are willing to obfuscate said facts in a misguided attempt to keep to principles that criminals brazenly disregard. The only thing I see is that you are espousing softness on crime. I think this is the only thing that a Satanist would find objectionable, certainly it is a self-destructive act.

So... you admit to intentionally attempting to use misleading rhetoric so that the persons on this board... can do what? Share in your righteous outrage? To what end? Certainly you don't think that this will solve your imaginary problem?
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#346068 - 08/14/08 05:02 AM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Corvin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 48
Loc: Near Ottawa, On
Originally Posted By: Rudmer
But I think that in this case, "changing the world" is also changing my own world, at least a little bit. I've posted this thread elsewhere in the behemoth that is the internet, with some interesting and effective results.


Really? What results have you had? Did you use the same obfuscation tactics to confuse the unwashed masses?

Tell us more of your prowess.

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#346192 - 08/14/08 05:10 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Hixem Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 100
Loc: North Carolina
Here is a link to the actual executive order: http://jfvalley.blogspot.com/2008/08/executive-order-8-2008-order-declaring.html

This is my favorite exerpt:

Quote:

The Code Enforcement Department has been directed to pursue Nuisance Abatement (Evictions) for those persons residing in homes, in the affected areas, where at least three (3) criminal violations have occurred within the most recent time period allowed to be considered by law.


They can drag people right out of their homes without cause, too.

Too bad they didn't have a clause allowing the police to lynch people, too.
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#346204 - 08/14/08 06:22 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Hixem]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Actually the cause is right in your quote.
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#346214 - 08/14/08 07:16 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Hixem]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Hixem

Too bad they didn't have a clause allowing the police to lynch people, too.


I agree.

They should start with the rapists.
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#346215 - 08/14/08 07:25 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
Here is where I am stuck: did you go around the internet or local areas making a fuss about the crime problem that precipitated this martial-law crackdown or did you let it pass? Certainly crime would affect you worse than martial law, as crime has no oversight or accountability.

Why do you only kick up dust when Authority flexes it's muscle, and not when crime does?

Is this all just part of the modern "fight-the-power" mentality?

I agree that Martial Law is serious business and has the potential for abuse, but no abuse seems to have taken place here.

Who is Martial Law protecting and who would you rather protect?
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Mistaking insolence for freedom has always been the hallmark of the slave.
-Wilhelm Reich

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#346216 - 08/14/08 07:30 PM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Jack_Lantern]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
Originally Posted By: Jack_Lantern
Actually the cause is right in your quote.


Ha!
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Mistaking insolence for freedom has always been the hallmark of the slave.
-Wilhelm Reich

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#346333 - 08/15/08 10:40 AM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
"I wish I could make the world a better place, but mass murder is illigal." grin

Sakura gave me that quote.
Oh how funny and true.

America is so anti-phisical punishment.
No matter what the other person does, if you lay a hand on him, America is shocked, and you are made the criminal.
Cops have it the worst. If the cop is white and does anything, he is racist.


Edited by Enigma777 (08/15/08 11:01 AM)

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#346340 - 08/15/08 11:16 AM Re: Angered and ashamed [Re: Rudmer]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Quote:
As Satanists, I think we should all be enraged when the authorities, those who are supposed to uphold the law, overstep its boundaries and become criminals themselves.

I'm not enraged. If you are, Darkahn has made a good point, do something about it. Just for clarification, "do something about it" requires you to seek out legal courses of action that would change the situation more towards your liking. So while you tell us to know our rights, I would suggest availing yourself of your options. Furthermore, I don't take kindly to people telling me how I "should" feel. Don't assume that I will agree with you simply because I am a Satanist.
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#346345 - 08/15/08 12:05 PM Re: This was already addressed. [Re: Rudmer]
Malcontent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: Rudmer
Just because something doesn't affect me directly does not mean it is not worthy of my attention and concern. That is ignorant and self-destructive thinking. A saying I've heard about killing Jews and homosexuals comes to mind...


Fair enough. But given the situation as I understand it, what would the alternative be?

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