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#346658 - 08/16/08 09:29 PM A few questions
Blaspheme Offline


Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 2
I've been browsing through these pages recently, and before I jump into the loophole of symbolism you love so much, I have to point out that I would like to hear some straight answers about your ways of thinking.

I am not presuming that I know much about your "religion" nor I am here to disturb your lair or judge you, I just love a nice discussion and would also like to hear your opinion.

Why do you nurture a growing community if you're strongly individualistic, and do you acknowledge that by doing it you are also flocking people?

Can you give me an example of the methods you use to destroy individuals that annoy you in the open territory? To clarify this, I don't really understand what's allowed and what's not and how do you define destruction.

Basically, if we accept that there is no life after death, in the end it's all in vain, so why sin when it doesn't matter ? Why not work for the benefit of the community and also work for our own benefit?











Edited by Blaspheme (08/16/08 10:07 PM)

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#346669 - 08/16/08 10:30 PM Re: A few questions [Re: Blaspheme]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
1. Individualism and cooperation are not mutually exclusive.

2. Look up Florida's laws extending "Castle Doctrine" to public places and you'll have a good idea of the Satanic principle of self-defense translated into policy.

3. As far as "sin" goes, the various otherworldly religions define most carnal enjoyment as "sin" so why deny yourself carnal enjoyment if there is no eternal judgment in the afterlife?
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#346670 - 08/16/08 10:30 PM Re: A few questions [Re: Blaspheme]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Why do you nurture a growing community if you're strongly individualistic, and do you acknowledge that by doing it you are also flocking people?

I take it you don't really understand the meaning of individualism. It doesn't mean "aloneness."

Wikipedia has the following to say about Individualism:

"Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, or social outlook that stresses independence, self-reliance and individual liberty."

This is a true statement about Satanism as well.

"Individualism is also opposed to tradition, religion, or any other form of external moral standard being used to limit an individual's choice of actions."

Likewise, a true statement about Satanism.

Neither of these indicate that there can be no company of others.

Or perhaps you misunderstand the Church of Satan. You possibly assume it's a governing body with some authority over its members, which it really is not - the only authority the Church holds is over its own intellectual property and the status of individuals as members or nonmembers. It is essentially a custodian of Satanic thought. Members are free to do as they please, even if that means zero contact with the organization.

Can you give me an example of the methods you use to destroy individuals that annoy you in the open territory? To clarify this, I don't really understand what's allowed and what's not and how do you define destruction.

Destruction would be anything the target finds ruinous to his well being. What's not allowed is illegal activity - what is allowed is anything else.

The degree of response appropriate depends on the degree to which you are "bothered." After all, there is a big difference between someone harassing me on a college campus with religious rhetoric (in which case campus security works in my favor) and threatening me with a knife (in which case a personal firearm works well). Luckily I seem to be rather free of people bothering me in public, so I don't do a whole lot of destroying. Your mileage may vary.

Basically, if we accept that there is no life after death, in the end it's all in vain, so why sin when it doesn't matter ? Why not work for the benefit of the community and also work for our own benefit?

This makes me laugh. Did you think about this before you wrote it? Let me point out the errors in this:

- We don't believe in sin either, at least as a moral concept. Satanic "sins" are things that either would define you as "unSatanic" (i.e. behaviors that exclude you from being a Satanist by merit that we would never accept such a person) or behaviors that are destructive to yourself, which is unacceptable to the Satanic goal of self glorification.

- Further, how are you even defining sin? By Christian definition? Jewish? Muslim? Some other religion? Or those things considered sins by 'most' other religions? Why should we kowtow to some kind of ridiculous world consensus of moral standards? Why should we really give a shit what a bunch of people who believe in an invisible man who cannot die but died for their sins think about our lifestyles?

- If there is no reward after death, why would we work for "the good of the community?" Such altruistic actions are the sole domain of those who expect a personal reward for their services either in this life or the next. Satanists DO, by the way, do things that are a service to the community, but they do it for personal reward in this life, and they do it for themselves, not for the greater good. We are not utilitarians.

- If we assume you're defining sin by a Judeo-Christian standard, how does this even conflict with service to the community anyway? Fornication is considered sinful, yet a person can easily be both a complete and total whoremonger and a philanthropist, and in fact we see that this is often the case with preachers, politicians, and businessmen. What's more, we don't view these so-called "sins" as negative behaviors. LaVey discussed the Seven Deadly Sins as virtues in The Satanic Bible, which it would certainly seem you have not read. He explains in detail how each of these are in fact natural human urges that are totally unavoidable in any healthy, normal person and that they were selected for this exact reason as sins to ensure that everyone will sin and thus everyone will owe penance to the Christian church (equally true is that Christian thinkers have a long history of hatred of man's carnal nature and revolted against anything that proved that he was animalistic - yet another aspect in which Satanism is the polar opposite of Christianity).

However, given your condescendingly smug tone towards us, I have a feeling this isn't going to be a long discussion before you're escorted out. You see, it's not just symbolism I love so much, it's also throwing people out the door.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#346684 - 08/17/08 12:20 AM Re: A few questions [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Blaspheme Offline


Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 2
Regarding individualism...

I did not mistake individualism for aloneness. I am merely questioning your methods, because after all, I am mostly ignorant regarding that matter. That's why I am asking. You are a structured organization no matter how loose that structure might be so I wanted to know something more about it.

Also, you can check what wikipedia has to say about authority.

Regarding sin...

I am not religious so I am not defining sin by any standard. I was merely using your rhetoric. You like to laugh about it, so I wanted to know if it's bullshit why do you waste your time bashing it and basing your religion(or whatever it is to you) around anti-christian themes.

You can also check wikipedia for altruism.

And, you are right, I have not read Satanic Bible but I probably will.

My intention was not to be smug towards you but since english is not my mother tongue I probably expressed myself in a wrong way.

Thanks for the detailed response, I know my own way out.

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#346685 - 08/17/08 12:22 AM Re: A few questions [Re: Blaspheme]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Until you've actually read The Satanic Bible any discussion is going to be unproductive. The information available online assumes you've already familiarized yourself with it.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#346945 - 08/18/08 03:18 PM Re: A few questions [Re: Blaspheme]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11546
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Blaspheme
and before I jump into the loophole of symbolism you love so much,
[...]
I am not presuming that I know much about your "religion" nor I am here to disturb your lair or judge you,

Uh-huh. Moving right along..

Quote:
You like to laugh about it, so I wanted to know if it's bullshit why do you waste your time bashing it and basing your religion(or whatever it is to you) around anti-christian themes.

I don't "waste time" bashing Christianity. In fact, a glance through this message board will show that religion-bashing isn't exactly a hot topic. Granted Satanism makes use of anti-Christian aesthetics and ritualistic trappings, but that's largely because Satanism came from 20th century western culture, where the most popular mythological archetype for our principles is Satan. Anybody who takes the time to read up on Satanism will see that it's philosophically no more anti-Christian than it's anti-Buddhist, anti-Muslim, or anti-any other spiritual religion. And obviously you yourself find some appeal in the "blasphemous" aesthetics on some level, given the username that you've chosen.

Quote:
Can you give me an example of the methods you use to destroy individuals that annoy you in the open territory? To clarify this, I don't really understand what's allowed and what's not and how do you define destruction.

Re-read the 11th rule of the earth, without conveniently ignoring the first part of it. I could "destroy" an emeny though shame and humiliation, or an intellectual beating, or by calling the police if they're a criminal, or not letting them have something that they're relying on me fore, etc. But the COS doesn't condone illegal activity. This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
Basically, if we accept that there is no life after death, in the end it's all in vain, so why sin when it doesn't matter ? Why not work for the benefit of the community and also work for our own benefit?

Your "what if" question doesn't make any sense. I don't force myself to "sin" for the sake of blasphemy. As a Satanist, I accept the fact that many of the things which other religions have called "sins" (lust, pride, critical thinking, doubt, etc.) are often to my personal benefit. Sometimes an act that benefits the community can also indirectly benefit me too, so the two ideas are not mutually exclusive either. It's up to the individual Satanist do decide what his or her duties are to their family and community, and not be stupid to throw foresight out the window. Satanism is a personal tool, not a public cause.

Quote:
And, you are right, I have not read Satanic Bible but I probably will.

Whenever I'm looking at a topic has a definitive source, I do try to read that source before I jump into discussions on it. It saves a lot of time for everybody.
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