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#346985 - 08/18/08 08:50 PM Question of the nature leaders.
ArkyEngineer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 70
I just received my copy of The Book of Satanic Quotations and have been enjoying it thoroughly. It's an excellent piece of work.
While thumbing through the book I came upon a quote of LaVey's which I found confusing, and this is probably based upon my own perception. Here it is.
"The world is NOT a stage upon which we are all actors playing a part. In this world, there are the performers and there is the audience. They are never interchangeable. The members of the audience are the followers. The performers are the leaders. If a person is one, there is no chance that he can become the other."
Here's my question, if the performers are the leaders, then what do you call the people who tell them what to perform? Many of the performes seem to me, to be meat puppets who like the smell of the lower intestine.
I'll qualify that with my interpretation of the world, perhaps I should scale this down, my interpretation of the United States. It would be presumptuous to assume too much knowledge of the rest of the world.
We have those who the masses consider to be the leaders. These are what I would consider the performers, they are the "elected leaders." In plain English our politicians, the President, Senate...
Then we have what I consider to be the leaders, the corporations who are making millions, merely off the interests of the continuous stream of revenue they generate not to mention regular profit. They throw the politician a little money to get him/her to dance and generally avoid the stage themselves as much as possible. They often just sit in the audience and ask the right questions from time to time. In very rare cases they may take the stage themselves. Sometimes they merely whisper the right questions into the ear of the person standing next to them.
Bear in mind, this is just the way I see things, my interpretation.
Lavey was a truly brilliant man and I would have to question myself if I thought any of his statements were inaccurate in any way. On that basis, I wonder if I could have misunderstood the quote.
I have some other questions I would like to ask, but I think they would be better suited for the member's section. One, for the protection of my identity, and two they are probably not suited for mass consumption.
I'll look forward to gaining access, I've recieved my packet and sent out an e-mail to get on the mailing list and will look forward to further discussion. I still have not applied for an active membership, if it is required to get into the member's section where I can ask more interesting questions I suppose I better get my application in the mail.
I'll look forward to understanding this further, I am usually pretty busy and I don't get on here too often so please bear with me. I'm learning that there are different expectations in terms of manners on the internet.

Satanic Regards,
Arky
Hail Satan!
_________________________
"Those who base their interpretation on the interpretations of others rather than their own rationale are the herd."


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#347004 - 08/18/08 10:42 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
>> if the performers are the leaders, then what do you call the people who tell them what to perform? Many of the performes seem to me, to be meat puppets who like the smell of the lower intestine. <<

Then don't be that kind of performer.

Write your own material. Simple.
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#347014 - 08/18/08 11:53 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: ArkyEngineer
Here's my question, if the performers are the leaders, then what do you call the people who tell them what to perform? Many of the performes seem to me, to be meat puppets who like the smell of the lower intestine.


I think you're stretching the metaphor too far, but what the Hell, let's go with it.

Originally Posted By: ArkyEngineer
We have those who the masses consider to be the leaders. These are what I would consider the performers, they are the "elected leaders." In plain English our politicians, the President, Senate...
Then we have what I consider to be the leaders, the corporations who are making millions, merely off the interests of the continuous stream of revenue they generate not to mention regular profit.


And corporations don't have anyone pulling their strings? Are CEOs truly free agents in the world, answering to no one, unstoppable in executing their whims? No shareholders, or boards of directors, or government agencies, or unions, or competitors, or grassroots efforts?

Now, there's no doubt that the CEO of a megacorp has far more clout than you or I. So does your typical Congressman. But the way I see it, there's much more to this "leader/follower distinction" than just being the guy with the most influence. One doesn't have to hobnob with Senators and Presidents to be a "leader" -- not everyone WANTS to do that. Who is the more enviable character, the CEO of a billion-dollar firm who has a half-dozen bleeding ulcers and has to drink himself to sleep every night, or the artist who makes a modest living doing what he loves?

I'm not trying to say that all CEOs are miserable or all artists are blissfully happy -- that's obviously not the case. But one should work in the direction of his abilities and interests -- and a leadership role in an organization IS one of those abilities and interests. If you've always dreamed of being a corporate raider, then by all means go for it. But many others, myself included, would be miserable in that role. Should I sacrifice my happiness for clout that I don't even really want, just to become more "leadery"?

If I may quote Magus Gilmore, writing on a different but related topic:

Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
The person who has a talent for baking and figures out how to make some damn fine chocolate chip cookies, and then shares this secret with friends (enriching their world with delicious cookies), or makes an empire out of selling these to other people, is someone who is using a Satanic principle to further their lives. If this person becomes a world famous cookie magnate, or just the neighborhood’s most revered baker ... Our baker will have demonstrated that a Satanist is a person with the capability to do something exemplary.


(From here.)

-Chess

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#347124 - 08/19/08 02:47 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 262
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
I think "Leadership" exists on many different plateaus which happen to fall on many different elevations. I am a leader in my realm of existence, and my "leader" conterpart over on the other plateau at a higher-elevation may have influence on certain aspects of my existence but what is it that may make me individually more powerful than him despite our different existences.......Money. I am a leader as our my local government officials but I would bet that I make more than a good percentage of them as do many of us. I am happy because I make alot more than I owe, and work alot less than many. I don't think it's leaders-leading-leaders, I think it's leaders existing under different terms. One thing we all DO have in common is our dealings with the mass incompetence that exists within the herd.
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#347144 - 08/19/08 03:45 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Already some good replies.
I look at it fromm this angle...the leaders are self-motivated. Even if part of their role is taking orders, they are still self-motivated.
Followers need external motivation.
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#347157 - 08/19/08 05:33 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Confused?

This quote very accurately describes one of the core principles of Satanism there is no need for interpretation.

Further, I really don’t see how your flawed interpretation of the world and its politics has anything to do with it.

Either you get it or you don't.
_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


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#347297 - 08/20/08 09:14 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: gypsy]
ArkyEngineer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 70
Reverend Bickley, thanks for your insight. Maybe it's the context of performer, "Write your own material. Simple."
maybe by performer Lavey means people who get stuff done, or obtain tangible results. Maybe achievers would have been a better word to use, but achievers has a lousy ring to it so perhaps the word performer was used instead. Maybe that is why NOT is capitalized. There are plenty of people who survive by 'sucking up' to authority figures and putting on a plastic persona. I'll choose my wording more carefully in the future, but I have a serious problem with this type of performer. Maybe this is why Detroit is on the verge of Darwinization.
Chess, Thanks for your response as well, seems like I've read that quote in the Satanic Scriptures. That said if I were a great cookie entrepreneur. As soon as my stock went public, I would hire an intelligent spokesperson. This would allow me my private life to do as I please without impacting my income which hopefully would become a massive passive income once I hired the right staff. There are plenty of people out and about who want the attention.
I do think you were a bit presumptuous though assuming I want to be a corporate raider and naturally some of the responses following yours registered that.
Descendant, Thanks for your response as well. Perhaps leadership could be represented as a bunch of pyramids?
Thanks Roho, excellent point.

Hail Satan!
ArkyEngineer


"As stupid as all the losers who blame "The Man" for their problems,not realizing that "The Man" became "The Man" because you were too stupid to become "The Man" yourself." -Jim Goad
_________________________
"Those who base their interpretation on the interpretations of others rather than their own rationale are the herd."


Hail Satan!

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#347316 - 08/20/08 11:07 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1019
I think of it this way: The leaders, or performers, are the Doers. The ones that Do. The followers, or audience, are those that, for the most part, idly watch the Doers. It really is a great analogy... Taking America, the example you provided, think of all the millionaire actors and actresses, Doers, makes all manner of movies and entertainments for the vast ocean of idle watchers to consume in their living rooms and theatres. But, it is an analogy. Analogies only go so far.

As always, stratification keeps everything in natural pecking order. Keanu Reeves is a way higher paid actor than Gina Gershon.

In fact, I might argue that leaders, by virtue of who they are, often have far more people to whom they must answer than followers. After all, to whom does one really need answer if he does hardly anything at all?
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#347347 - 08/21/08 01:06 AM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Quote:
"The world is NOT a stage upon which we are all actors playing a part. In this world, there are the performers and there is the audience. They are never interchangeable. The members of the audience are the followers. The performers are the leaders. If a person is one, there is no chance that he can become the other."


Quote:
Maybe achievers would have been a better word to use, but achievers has a lousy ring to it so perhaps the word performer was used instead.

I disagree. "Performer" was an excellent choice of words. How does an achiever achieve? What qualities to efficient achievers have in common? I definitely see the "go-getter" attitude in that quote that others have mentioned. I also see a subtle nod towards Lesser Magic (successful achievers realize that by performing they obtain optimal results). Also, if one is a performer, they are more likely to be aware of and recognize other performance techniques and will only play along when they choose to.
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"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#347472 - 08/21/08 11:25 AM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: AurEum]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 262
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
I totally agree, I'm far from an Actor but a Performer to the utmost. I perform Magic every day in my own right, my whole work day consists of performance in which I and others would consider to be magic (knowingly or unknowingly). I, as a leader am even evaluated (annualy) on my ability to Perform. My audience isn't necessarilly my subordinates in the fact that they are more part of my performance in a supportive role, I think that my audience could be better identified as the ones who fund my performances.
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#347601 - 08/21/08 11:51 PM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: ArkyEngineer]
MagisterParadise Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 3254
Loc: Burlington, VT
Originally Posted By: ArkyEngineer
I just received my copy of The Book of Satanic Quotations and have been enjoying it thoroughly.


Glad you're enjoying one of my books. Also happy to see it provoke discussion -- in this case, some fairly astute insights from some of our members.

Looks like I found this thread a little late, as anything I would have said has already been stated. Looks pretty much covered here to me.

Anyone who wants to know more about the book this person is talking about can follow the links provided in my signature.
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#347863 - 08/23/08 08:35 AM Re: Question of the nature leaders. [Re: MagisterParadise]
ArkyEngineer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 70
Ravenhail, I didn't mean to overlook you before. It was a good response as well. Thanks Vitaeverinus, Elaiontoir, Descendant and Magister Paradise. Thanks for the intelligent answers. Have a great weekend!

Arky Engineer
Hail Satan!

"To read a newspaper is to refrain from reading something worth while. The first discipline of education must therefore be to refuse resolutely to feed the mind with canned chatter." -Crowley

"Users are losers." -McGruff
_________________________
"Those who base their interpretation on the interpretations of others rather than their own rationale are the herd."


Hail Satan!

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