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#35200 - 04/14/04 03:11 AM Vampirism
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
I am fully aware that discussions about the TOV are not permitted here. I plan on researching that realm on my own. This is NOT a discussion about the TOV, but about *Vampirism* in general. Here in NYC the Vamp scene is fairly large and more Satanists are getting involved. I have always gravitated toward the Vampire aesthetic and have been involved in the "scene" just for the enjoyment, but the silly politics involved and the many fake Goths caused me to become disenchanted rather quickly. I have known people who were in the scene that got involved just to gain silly titles, ranks, popularity or another identity that they were lacking. And others who actualy really believed in it as a religion. My question is...what is the Satanic perspective on Vampirism? Be it actual religion or aesthetic? Are the philosphies compatible? And most importantly, what does Vampirism mean to you?

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#35201 - 04/14/04 03:46 AM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:

what does Vampirism mean to you?



Stock for entertaining novels and films, and little else.

Oh and I also like to chuckle at pretentious little silly goth kids that think they are vampires. Thats entertainment right there.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#35202 - 04/14/04 04:21 AM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Josephine007 Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 01/31/04
Posts: 620
Loc: Zero Point Field
...what does Vampirism mean to you?

You stated, This is NOT a discussion about the TOV, but about *Vampirism* in general.

The 'vamp scene' is not Vampirism.

Do NOT get the two confused.

You also stated, "I plan on researching that realm on my own."

I warmly invite you to the Gate of the Temple at the ToV Message Board. There, you will encounter a post entitled, "Real Vampires versus pretenders". This post clearly answers your stated set of questions.

I would begin THERE, rather then here.

Go straight to the source.

Josephine Seven
Adept
Temple of the Vampire

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#35203 - 04/14/04 05:48 AM Re: Vampirism [Re: Josephine007]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:


The 'vamp scene' is not Vampirism.

Do NOT get the two confused.




Of course not! Believe me, I know the difference. I only referred to the Vamp scene because... A)I only gravitated to it because of the aesthetic and because those type of nightclubs tend to play the music I listen to. I am a party goer, I was there for the party, nothing more. I just happened to meet some people along the way, thus allowing me to further witness what this scene was truly about on a deeper level. I was not impressed or pleased after knowing what their version of Vampirism was about. I already knew this was NOT the place to go to research this realm. B) I noticed that more Satanists (some COS members) are going to these events.

Quote:

I warmly invite you to the Gate of the Temple at the ToV Message Board. There, you will encounter a post entitled, "Real Vampires versus pretenders". This post clearly answers your stated set of questions.

I would begin THERE, rather then here.

Go straight to the source.




Thank you. I have already been there before. I plan on purchasing the Vampire Bible and I've read Magister Nemo's post a while ago. It was wonderfully written and I share his sentiments. But that is only one point of view...I would like to hear view points from other Satanists here as well, TOV member or not. And like I said, this doesn't have to delve into specifics about the TOV religion. I can find that out on my own.

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#35204 - 04/14/04 01:18 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
I see no problem with role playing, as long as a person realizes that they are indeed only role playing.

And that is precisely what you are refering to: role playing. It should not be confused with Vampirism, just as a man dressed up as a chicken should not be confused with a genuine chicken. Putting on a black cape and plastic fangs does not allow one to live forever any more than putting on a chicken suit will allow one to lay an egg.
_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#35205 - 04/14/04 01:23 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: C_D_McKinna]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Putting on a black cape and plastic fangs does not allow one to live forever any more than putting on a chicken suit will allow one to lay an egg.

I like that analogy.

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#35206 - 04/14/04 01:24 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6357
I have known people who were in the scene that got involved just to gain silly titles, ranks, popularity or another identity that they were lacking.

Sounds like the vamp scene is rife with the same sort of idiots who gravitate to pseudo-Satanic organizations.
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Committee for the
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#35207 - 04/14/04 01:54 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Solomon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 499
Loc: Cincinnati
Your inquiry would be answered completely with a little study. The philosophies of both are outlined in their Bibles.

Temple of the Vampire

The Church of Satan

Study these, and you will have your answers. Then you will not need to rely on the opinions of others, but instead on cold hard facts. The true bedrock of knowledge.

Regards,
Solomon


Edited by Solomon (04/14/04 01:57 PM)

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#35208 - 04/14/04 02:56 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: C_D_McKinna]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

I see no problem with role playing, as long as a person realizes that they are indeed only role playing.



Me either...it's all about having fun. That is the only value I found going to these places. Nothing more.

Quote:

And that is precisely what you are refering to: role playing. It should not be confused with Vampirism, just as a man dressed up as a chicken should not be confused with a genuine chicken. Putting on a black cape and plastic fangs does not allow one to live forever any more than putting on a chicken suit will allow one to lay an egg.




I am not confused, I expressed I knew the difference already. I agree with your analogy, unfortunatly many people don't. Actually, I wasn't just refering to roleplay, I was asking what *real* Vampirism means to individuals also. To me, Vampirism is a "higher level" of Satanism...
attaining or developing powers of the body and mind such as, superior strength, clairvoyance, telepathy, etc. *is* becoming truly divine. Any pompous minion can read the Satanic Bible and claim he is a God just because Dr LaVey says so! To me, just acknowledging that there are no dieties before you, so that automatically makes you a "god" is just not cutting it. What makes one truly divine? Advancing your mind and body does! I have encountered many individuals who are Satanists and claim that they are "gods" but don't know the first thing about self defense, and advancing the body or mind! I consider myself to be very openminded and I can attest that these abilities can be attained and worked on. There are also many stupid individuals in the Vamp scene that don't know the first thing about this subject either. Now as for the TOV, that is something that I really don't know about but I'm planning to research...but that is not this discussion.

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#35209 - 04/14/04 03:05 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Solomon]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Your inquiry would be answered completely with a little study. The philosophies of both are outlined in their Bibles.

Temple of the Vampire

The Church of Satan

Study these, and you will have your answers. Then you will not need to rely on the opinions of others, but instead on cold hard facts. The true bedrock of knowledge.




I do study. I am not relying on the opinions of others...I'm just curious. I was aiming for a discussion not a course on Vampirism or Satanism. I just gave my opinion and I would like to hear yours. I'm not looking for answers...I know where to go, just an intellectual discussion.

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#35210 - 04/14/04 03:16 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: LKRice]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:


Sounds like the vamp scene is rife with the same sort of idiots who gravitate to pseudo-Satanic organizations.



Yes you are correct. It's ridiculous and not much different. You tend to find those psuedo-Satanists here too. You find card carrying members there also. But I'm assuming that they are there just for their amusement and the party just like I was.

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#35211 - 04/14/04 03:49 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Any pompous minion can read the Satanic Bible and claim he is a God just because Dr LaVey says so!

Dr. LaVey never said so. He never said I was a God. In fact I never had the pleasure of speaking with him. I just had the pleasure of reading his books and finding myself in his words.

The importance is not believing you are a god but being a god. One must remember there are others who are gods as well. A god can still be destoryed and so one must understand the importance of survival.


Edited by Discipline (04/14/04 04:29 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#35212 - 04/14/04 03:54 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
AEnigma Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 1732
Loc: Belgium
But I'm assuming that they are there just for their amusement and the party just like I was

Not always, though. The phenomenon of Church of Satan members going to vamp clubs and even joining pseudo-vampire groups and religions seems to be international. I can understand the goth part to a degree - a dark aesthetic seems to appeal to many Satanists.
So if you ever cross the Atlantic and go to a "vampyre" event, chances are good there will be some card-carrying CoS members there also. Not the ones I would personally associate with, but still, CoS members . And if you count the people that call themselves Satanists without actually having joined the Church of Satan (not a prerequisite, I know) or even having recognized themselves in the Satanic Bible, their numbers go up dramatically.
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Ænigma.

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Kindly leave your morals at the wardrobe.

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#35213 - 04/14/04 03:57 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Discipline]
Carkosa Offline


Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 359
Quote:

Any pompous minion can read the Satanic Bible and claim he is a God just because Dr LaVey says so!

Dr. LaVey never said so. He never said I was a God.




True...but I'm sure you get the jist of what I'm trying to convey. When many people read the philosophy of Satanism they tend to assume this.

Quote:

The importance is not believe you are a god but being a god. One must remember there are others who are gods as well. A god can still be destoryed and so one must understand the importance of survival.




Defintely! Which is why it is so vital to advance the body and the mind!

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#35214 - 04/14/04 04:11 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
I was asking what *real* Vampirism means to individuals also.

That is like asking what "real Satanism" means to individuals. It is a loaded question. There is only one definition for either of these terms.

Also, as pointed out by others, this is not the place to discuss this topic.
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Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#35215 - 04/14/04 04:14 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
In my mind, saying that all goths are idiots is like saying that all African-Americans are inferior. It cannot be proven conclusively. However, it does not make much difference. The Satanist is the highest embodiment of life. Anything else would be explored merely as a means of entertainment and/or perhaps a lesson in herd behavior; as far as the limited context of this discussion is concerned.
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Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#35216 - 04/14/04 04:15 PM Lies [Re: Carkosa]
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
You claim to understand that the ToV is not discussed outside the ToV, but that you wish to discuss "real" Vampirism.

Vampirism is not discussed outside the ToV. If you wish to discuss it, go there. You are wasting your breath trying to do so here.
_________________________
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

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#35217 - 04/14/04 04:20 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:


True...but I'm sure you get the jist of what I'm trying to convey. When many people read the philosophy of Satanism they tend to assume this.





How can you be sure that people who read the Satanic Bible make this assumption? I would not look fondly on such a person. It is the name of the game. Lex Talionis.

From the perspective of a dolt, anyone who might actually be a true to life Master is just as much of a phony as someone without a clue claiming to be Jesus.

This is not an "assumption" in the mind of a Satanist; only in the mind of a dolt. I would not even favor assumption in general, which I would also apply to the idea of being Vampiric.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#35218 - 04/14/04 04:29 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
As much as I admire your intent of remaining in the "safe zone", there is unfortunately a catch-22 here that makes this discussion unacceptable. Many Satanists are members of the ToV, including Priests and Magisters, and a discussion of gothic vampires would make little sense to a ToV member. At the same time, for those of us who are not ToV members and think of any Goth or Vampire as being role-playing and pure fiction, all comments in that "vein" are also going to cause a disturbance here. I'm not holding anything against you for trying, but for these reasons, it simply can't be done decently.
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Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#35219 - 04/14/04 04:56 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
Ya know, there are actual vampires (not scenesters or RPGers) outside of the ToV.

You know that right? Psi/Psy vampires, sang vampires, They dont run into your house suck your neck and run away at 2am, but there are vampires outside of the ToV and outside of fashion scenes.


Edited by Stanton_Vetalas (04/14/04 04:58 PM)

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#35220 - 04/14/04 04:58 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Yes, I am aware of that. But I hardly think that many other people would have a clue as to who exactly they are.
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Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#35221 - 04/14/04 04:59 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
Alright. I've just been reading a couple threads like these here and there and spent a little time hovering at the ToV board, and it just seems as if, as far as they're concerned, they don't exist.

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#35222 - 04/14/04 05:50 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Your questions should not be asked here. This is a forum for Satanists. Even though there are Satanists that are members of ToV this is still not the place to discuss it. Any questions you have for the Temple should be asked at their forum. There you will find those who are well informed and your questions will be answered in the appropriate territory.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#35223 - 04/14/04 06:15 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
DancingintheDark Offline


Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 745
Quote:

To me, Vampirism is a "higher level" of Satanism...
attaining or developing powers of the body and mind such as, superior strength, clairvoyance, telepathy, etc. *is* becoming truly divine.




A "higher level" of Satanism? I would have thought that aesthetically, vampirism would appeal more as a kind of mirror image to Satanism, where "reality" or dayside has an inverse or fantasy/nightside. I guess the idea of an immortal God preying on the weak is not that big a leap of the imagination away from the idea of the Satanic "wolf" scattering confusion amongst the sheep.

In any case, any Satanist worth his salt should be seeking to develop his mind and body anyway, whether attracted to the vampire aesthetic or not. I sincerely doubt if telepathy and clairvoyance are worthwhile aspirations however, as compared to spiritual pipe dreams. Though heightened imagination, concentration, relaxation practices etc would quite likely pave the way for more intuitive and insightful experiences. As long as one's critical faculties are well exercised too. Balance!
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#35224 - 04/14/04 06:57 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Quote:

Ya know, there are actual vampires (not scenesters or RPGers) outside of the ToV.

You know that right? Psi/Psy vampires, sang vampires, They dont run into your house suck your neck and run away at 2am, but there are vampires outside of the ToV and outside of fashion scenes.




No, they are not Vampires, they are disturbed individuals who cannot tell the difference between right from wrong, or fiction from fact.

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#35225 - 04/14/04 07:01 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Carkosa]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10568
Loc: England
Now, who was it that said.....

"whatever it is, I'm against it."

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"u.v.ray is truly an outsider, yet he's also a member of a club that includes greats such as Bukowski, Fante, and Salinger"

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#35226 - 04/14/04 07:12 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Satanya]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
Yeah ok... I'm not gonna bother getting into this on here. Like I said in a PM earlier today, I don't care much to make people think the same as me.

So whatever. I'll go back to the music forum now.

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#35227 - 04/14/04 07:31 PM Re: Who said it. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12552
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Groucho Marx in his wonderful role as supreme Captain Jeffrey T.Spaulding.

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#35228 - 04/14/04 08:08 PM Re: Who said it. [Re: Nemo]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Right, but didn't he say that in regards to anything in general, as taking the stance of having an opinion regardless of caring to hear the facts about whatever may be the case? Well, I'm uncertain I get UVs joke.

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#35229 - 04/14/04 08:11 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Quote:

Yeah ok... I'm not gonna bother getting into this on here. Like I said in a PM earlier today, I don't care much to make people think the same as me.

So whatever. I'll go back to the music forum now.




Oh dear.

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#35230 - 04/14/04 10:38 PM Re: Vampirism [Re: Satanya]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Why did you even bother?

I rest my case.

_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#35231 - 04/14/04 10:58 PM Re: Who said it. [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10568
Loc: England
>>Groucho Marx in his wonderful role as supreme Captain Jeffrey T.Spaulding<<

Captain Spaulding, that was it. Fantastic!

Poor Miss Listheret, I can see my humour is wasted on you.

_________________________
"u.v.ray is truly an outsider, yet he's also a member of a club that includes greats such as Bukowski, Fante, and Salinger"

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#35232 - 04/14/04 11:40 PM Re: Who said it. [Re: Nemo]
SilverHammer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 1758
Loc: Connecticut
Not to be annoying, but I could have sworn it was Professor Wagstaff in Horse Feathers...but then I haven't watched Marx Brothers movies in years. I do remember Dr. LaVey referred to the quote somewhere in The Devils Notebook.
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Some boys grow up into men who can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, and others just go along with the crowd, forgetting after a while that they ever had a choice. ---Roger Ebert

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