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#35535 - 04/16/04 07:59 AM Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am a SGT in the US Army and am trying to download a copy of DA PAM 165-13 which covers recognizzed religeons in the military with no sucess. I have been able to find parts of it but I need the entire regulation, ideally in PDF format. Of course the Chaplains home page and AKO is less worthless on this matter. Does anyone have this regulation?

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#35536 - 04/16/04 10:46 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
L. Kabron Offline


Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 1505
Loc: Massachusetts
_________________________
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#35537 - 04/16/04 11:01 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Caesar Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
As of now, "Satanism" is not specifically on the list of religions, but you can claim "Other Religion" (though once you see "the list", you'll be surprised to see what specifically is on that list). However, as you know, you can have your own set of dog tags made with "Satanist" on them (as I have), and even if they are inspected, no one is usually the wiser, and won't force you to change it to "Other Religion" (unless they have "the list").

When I was just recently in Kuwait, as part of my outprocessing from Iraq, I was privy to "the list" because I tried to slyly get them to make me an extra set of what I already owned (i.e. "Satanist"), but there was a double take, and they went up the local chain, who then produced "the list" and they said if I wanted a new set made, it would have to be "Other Religion" (I also attempted this when officially changing my records about 6 months prior in Iraq, but again, no dice).

This could be fought for, but until directed by Central, I would not dare try. I am sure they are well aware of these facts.
_________________________
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#35538 - 04/16/04 11:04 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Knocko Offline


Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 864
Loc: Michigan - Troll Country
This may be of some use.
_________________________
"When the long winter nights come on and the wolves follow their meat into the lower valleys, he may be seen running at the head of the pack through the pale moonlight or glimmering borealis, leaping gigantic above his fellows, his great throat a-bellow as he sings a song of the younger world, which is the song of the pack. "Old longings nomadic leap, Chafing at custom's chain: Again from its brumal sleep Wakens the ferine strain."" -Jack London, The Call of the Wild

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#35539 - 04/16/04 01:52 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
III Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 236
I was of the impression that SATANISM is somewhat respected in the military mabye not always in recognition but none the less respected. I have been told that SATANISM is on the LIST when I was in boot camp. If this LIST has changed you would surely not be punished just for your taste and preferences, unless it caused a pattern of disturbances amongst others or violated the HATE GROUP POLICY . To get a copy of the LIST go to the nearest LEAGAL OFFICE where they deal with court martial. Ask politely they have rules and regulations up the anus and they would probably be more than delighted to share their knowledge with you maybe even print it out.

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#35540 - 04/16/04 02:45 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: III]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I would suggest keeping Satanism on the down low while in the military. Even if it is written somewhere that Satanism is an accepted religion it might not be to your surperiors. You could raise the "Hate" or "discrimination" flag but those in the higher ranks do have pull. Others will take the side of the old crusty Master Sergeant who has 20 years under his belt and not some two year wet nosed PFC (I know you are a Sergeant but even a six year Sergeant does not have as much pull as a 12 year or more SNCO). Don't burn any bridges is what I am basically saying.

I kept my Satanism private while in the Marines and I did just fine. There was no reason for them to know and I saw no benefit to be opened about it.


Edited by Discipline (04/17/04 02:07 AM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#35541 - 04/16/04 09:37 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: III]
DeSol Offline


Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 81
Loc: 45 degrees N latitude
This country was built on Satanism, wasn't it? The Pentagon... "In god we trust" on our money? I'm sure there's other theories...
_________________________
Pleased to meet you... hope you can guess my name! "Sympathy For the Devil" -The Rolling Stones

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#35542 - 04/17/04 12:16 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10575
Loc: England
Forgive my suspicion; I am sure that being a military man you will understand.

I noticed in your introduction that you have been in the miltary since 1998 - that's 6 years now. It seems strange you have not already discovered this information in that time.

Also I have noticed that you have trouble with spelling and grammar - this strikes me as odd for someone who has attained the rank of SGT and must have some official paperwork on a fairly regular basis.

Just something that struck me. That's all.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#35543 - 04/17/04 06:59 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6359
Also I have noticed that you have trouble with spelling and grammar - this strikes me as odd for someone who has attained the rank of SGT and must have some official paperwork on a fairly regular basis.

One of the differences between the US and British militaries, it seems.
_________________________
Director
Committee for the
Promotion of Vice and
Prevention of Virtue

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#35544 - 04/17/04 11:23 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Read the previous reply for info on Grammer! As for the rest, I have been busy with my education and the education of my soldiers, also please notice that I am assigned to a Military Police Battalion- and they don't play. Military Police uphold the standard and all that crap! I'm a busy guy and have a lot of responsibilities, also I hadn't really taken all of the views all that seriously until these past few years and as you can well imagine I didn't think they would go over all that well in the military; and believe me I am not trying to advertise, but I have seen alot of messed up crap in the military happen to a lot of decent people. I still believe in the military and all it stands for; just sometimes- it doesn't stand for the soldier.


Edited by hallrl (04/17/04 11:26 AM)

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#35545 - 04/17/04 11:37 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Volkodlak Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1508
Loc: North Las Vegas, NV
Here's a question, Sergeant: why?

Just for the record, I'm active duty Air Force and I hardly make it a secret that I'm a Satanist--however, I don't wear a flashing neon banner displaying my chosen religion either. But, much like CaesarsGhost, my dog tags also say "Satanist".

I'm just curious as to why you need to review what the military's stance is on Satanism. Is there a problem of some sort?

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#35546 - 04/17/04 11:38 AM BY THE WAY- IF YOU ARE PARANOID [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes I have been slow to accept the way- officially. Don't shoot!!!!!
Just for the hell of it- look up DA-Pam 165-13 or "authorized religeons in the US Army". See if you don't get any further than I did. And by the way, quotes or exerts from regulations do me no good. What do you have to lose? Yes I read what is posted on the CoS website- but it's outdated, can't help me, can you?

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#35547 - 04/17/04 11:41 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Caesar]
Volkodlak Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1508
Loc: North Las Vegas, NV
Quote:

though once you see "the list", you'll be surprised to see what specifically is on that list




You're not kidding! Just the Native American religions take up at least twenty slots on the "official" list!

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#35548 - 04/17/04 11:42 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Volkodlak]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No Problem actually, I just want to be ready if asked and also I am not the Equal Opportunity Guy; but I want to be able to help my soldiers should the problem ever arise. I am not asking for the world here, I am just trying to find a regulation which does exist- yet it seems to be a ghost, mostly I want to see what it says out of curiosity becuase I have read quotes from it supposedly but cannot find the actual regulation.


Edited by hallrl (04/17/04 11:50 AM)

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#35549 - 04/17/04 11:53 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10575
Loc: England
>>I have been busy with my education<<

Which obviously hasn't included spelling and grammar

Ok, here's my reasoning:

In WWII there used to be this very pertinent maxim - "careless talk costs lives" which was placed on warning posters which were then hung about all over the country as a reminder to everyone.

The premise of this was that one has to be careful in speaking to strangers, however seemingly innocuous it may seem. A man at the bus stop, a woman in a bar, a couple on a train. Anyone could be an enemy.

It is a fact that some of those people who failed to heed this warning did cost others their lives.


Here, with the internet is an even greater risk.

Let us say a stranger came on here; as you have done, and asked the questions such as you have asked (a seemingly innocent enough place and seemingly innocent enough questions).

Of course, some of the military personel can relate to your dilemma - they have been there too - so they respond and ultimately "friendships" can be forged, more meaningful contact evolved over time.

Again, we have a situation where a seemingly innocuous friendship could quite easily not be all that it appears.

Not everyone is who they claim. Any contact could become a foothold for an enemy.

We are at war. We have men and women in a warzone.

Careless talk costs lives.

Does this sound far-fetched? Do you think it stupid?

I would have thought it was obvious to any member of the Military Police.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#35550 - 04/17/04 12:02 PM the religion of the Founders [Re: DeSol]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
No, it was not. Satanism didn't exist then.

My own theory is that the religion which most closely resembles the ideals and concepts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights is Protestant. There are varying opinions. We already know about the Freemason connection. We know that most of the Founders were Protestant, or as it has been pointed out to me, other denominations of Protestant. We also know that none of them were right-wing evangelical Christians, such as those who now claim that the USA was founded on Christianity.

So far, I don't know any Satanists who believe in sacred geometry with the single exception of the trapezoid. I hardly think that the Pentagon is a reference to any of LaVey's principles. LaVey invented his own meanings for the pentagram/baphomet of Levi and earlier irrelevant sources. "In God We Trust" and the eye at the top of the pyramid is an Egyptian/Freemason reference to my knowledge to a monotheistic God, i.e., Akhenaton, which certainly isn't the anti-theism of Satanists.

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#35551 - 04/17/04 12:06 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Look here sissy. I don't care what you think. All I am asking for is can you help me fing DA PAM 165-13? Look for it yourself before you show me how worthless you are. I don't give a shit if you are a CoS member becuase you may have a card- but you don't live it! If you are not willing to help me look for a regulation then don't waste my time!

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#35552 - 04/17/04 12:06 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Mike_Hargis Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/29/04
Posts: 825
Loc: Bensalem, PA (Philly 'burbs)
Yes, Satanism is an officially recognized religion in the Army...there used to be a Satanic chaplain! He was a Colonel. I saw him on a Geraldo special on Satanism back in '88 - '90 sometime. I had a problem with my squad leader when I converted my religious preference. He tried to bar me from putting it on my dog tags until our EO NCO told him it was legit & he couldn't stop me. He still asked me not to wear those tags when I jumped...of course, I wore them anyway! Hope this sheds some light on the subject for you.
_________________________
Love completely those who deserve your love, & hate just as completely those who deserve your hatred! Hail Satan! Mike Hargis

www.myspace.com/satanist_in_pa
www.massagespace.net/Details/CMT-in-NE-Philly
www.brightfuse.com/mikehargis
www.facebook.com/people/Mike_Hargis/1381346496

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#35553 - 04/17/04 12:13 PM Thanks! [Re: Mike_Hargis]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is great and it's what I need- almost. Do you have a copy of the regulation? It is not on the chaplains page as can well be expected I suppose, but it's not on AKO (Army Knowledge Onnline) either.

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#35554 - 04/17/04 01:14 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
If asked just lie. Lying to a superior is illegal but not when it comes to your religion. Sure it is illegal for them to harass you based on religion but they can find other ways of getting under your skin.

You may never find that regulation. So it all boils down to you deciding to remain covert or overt.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#35555 - 04/17/04 01:27 PM Lack of Respect
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
So if you ever find this regulation are you going to march around on the parade deck and loudly shout "I am a Satanist!"? Or are you going to keep quiet. If the later than do you really need that regulation? A good trait I learned while in the Marines was when to keep my mouth shut and when to speak up.

What if you never find that regulation? Does it really matter? Do you need to spend so much energy trying to uncover it? What would be the beneficial results if you did?

Also you did not need to be so rude to Mr. UVRay. He asked in a respectful manner and so you should do the same even if you disagree.


Edited by Discipline (04/17/04 01:28 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#35556 - 04/17/04 07:22 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10575
Loc: England
You have proved what I suspected to be true.

By your behaviour it is apparent that you are no ranked serviceman.

In fact not a serviceman at all. You display far too much immaturity to even be a soldier, let alone a SGT in the military police.

Proving what I was saying all along.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#35557 - 04/17/04 07:25 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
RustySpring Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1109
I believe that (once again) you've read the situation accurately, Mr. UVRAY.

This man, whoever he is, has absolutely no respect for anyone. He has come here demanding answers to his questions. He is a waste of time and should not be given the time of day.

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#35558 - 04/17/04 07:44 PM Re: BY THE WAY- IF YOU ARE PARANOID
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10575
Loc: England
Well, I am aware of military regulations and viewpoints with regards to Satanism and any other religion whilst serving in the forces.

There are things that become apparent.

Especially after you have served for six years, as YOU claim to have done.

There is no doubt in my mind, as there wasn't from the outset, that YOU are NOT a military man.

You are a liar. And your reaction to me, especially in view of the fact that I courteously explained my reasons, proves that I was correct in my assessment.

You are a rude and insolent teenager. Nothing more.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#35559 - 04/17/04 08:34 PM How to Order DA PAM 165-13
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
You can order it here, it looks like.

http://www.military-info.com/mphoto/Manuallist/miscarmy.htm

It took me about 5 seconds typing it into Google and hitting "search".

I hope anyone who wasted their time here feels really fucking cool.


Edited by Keryx (04/17/04 08:34 PM)
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#35560 - 04/18/04 03:04 AM Re: Lack of Respect [Re: Discipline]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I apoogize, I came back from a friend's wedding party and got irked when I read his post.
No I don't plan on shouting it out, I read on the CoS web page it was authorized but wanted to check it out myself , that's all.

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#35561 - 04/18/04 03:11 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I apoligize for getting pissed of on your post, I asked a simple question on how to find a regulation that's all.
Yes I am in fact in the military, no I am NOT a Military Police, I am assigned to thier Battalion. I did find the information I was looking for; Satanism is not recognized in the Military, the info I was trying to confirm was posted on the CoS web page somewhere or something I had googled and it referred to the military regulation I was looking for. The info was either Bogus or outdated.

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#35562 - 04/18/04 03:38 AM Thanks Knocko [Re: Knocko]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, I wish I had read this one sooner. It was as I had expected no longer official Army doctorine which explains why I was having such a hard time finding it even though I could find dozens of references to it.
Thanks! The reason I was looking for it was:
1. I had read somewhere it was authorized.
2. I was approached by a soldier who asked me about Satanism and also about Masonry (no I am not a Mason) both of which it seems, are not authorized in the Army. The soldier has no idea what my beliefs are but he approached me because I am his Team Leader- of course I was unable to answer the Satanic question, the Masonic one I could because MY supervisor is a Mason and I asked him straight out if it was authorized, which I had always heard it was not. His response was not it was not authorized even though he proudly wears his ring and watch (as do many others) and he acknowledged if someone was to call him out on it he would be screwed.
The best I was able to do for the soldier was to refer him to the Equal Opportunity Rep. and as it turns out the EO Rep was wrong as well. Fortunately he is a good friend of mine and has unasual views as well (he is a Kabbalist, sp?) and keeps his thoughts, and the thoughts of others to himself.

Thanks again, this has been a big help

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#35563 - 04/18/04 03:48 AM Re: How to Order DA PAM 165-13 [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I sent an email to CoS and here is the response I got:

The Department of the Army has changed things recently, under the Bush administration, and the previous chaplain’s handbook which listed many alternative religions has been allowed to go out of print, leaving things more nebulous.

They had moved to presenting a web site which updated the manual, and it included links to our site. However, that now is also gone.

Can you help ,me to download DA PAM 165-13? that's all I'm asking for.


If you visit our Sources page, you will find a link to the older version of the manual.

Sources at www.churchofsatan.com.

Administration
Church of Satan
www.churchofsatan.com


On 4/17/04 1:28 PM, "robert hall" wrote:


Sorry I hate to bother you, I have tried to search for the answer myself on the Internet and I have asked many Non Commisioned Officers in the Army. I have found that regulation DA PAM 165-13 covers religeons authorized or recognized by the military and have found some reference on the CoS webpage as well, unfortunately the web page is way outdated and as can be imagined, although there is reference to the regulation- it is not available off the internet. Not even off the Chaplain's home page- go figure!
I have tried to ask on the ask Satan web page and some of the members have tried to be helpfull but unfortunately were not better off than me at finding the answer.

That is the end of the email

It seems Knocko was correct and that explains why I have been unable to download it.

Also some of this was a waste of time and I am at least partyly (or mostly) to blame, I guess I shouldn't have been reading the post responses after drinking. Thanks.
This has answered my question at least so it wasn't a total waste of time.

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#35564 - 04/18/04 03:28 PM Re: Thanks Knocko
Knocko Offline


Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 864
Loc: Michigan - Troll Country
I'm glad that I could (finally) help. I just wish it would have helped before things got out of hand. Next time I CAP and BOLD my Subject header so people look there. I was a Satanist when I joined the Navy and I had to deal with many a problem; I was heavily scrutinized and I followed all the proper procedures. I did as much research as I could and I was eventually accepted, but only because my command officers wrote me off as a Wiccan (which for some reason they can accept).
_________________________
"When the long winter nights come on and the wolves follow their meat into the lower valleys, he may be seen running at the head of the pack through the pale moonlight or glimmering borealis, leaping gigantic above his fellows, his great throat a-bellow as he sings a song of the younger world, which is the song of the pack. "Old longings nomadic leap, Chafing at custom's chain: Again from its brumal sleep Wakens the ferine strain."" -Jack London, The Call of the Wild

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#35565 - 04/19/04 03:44 PM Re: How to Order DA PAM 165-13
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
If the link I gave you does not help, then I'm afraid I don't know of any other resources with the "updated" manual. It sounds to me like there isn't one.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#447735 - 03/19/11 10:16 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Bubba Offline


Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 2
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
You have proved what I suspected to be true.

By your behaviour it is apparent that you are no ranked serviceman.

In fact not a serviceman at all. You display far too much immaturity to even be a soldier, let alone a SGT in the military police.

Proving what I was saying all along.


Not to defend him, or his behavior, but I've met plenty of NCO's that were immature and slaughtered the English language, to boot. Sorry to answer an ancient post, but it came up in something I was searching for in Google.

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#447754 - 03/20/11 07:53 AM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Bubba]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Bubba, you are replying to a post from 2004.

Please look at the age of the thread before resurrecting it.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

"An inordinate passion for pleasure is the secret of remaining young" - Oscar Wilde

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#447787 - 03/20/11 04:20 PM Re: Looking for Military regulations regarding Satanism [Re: Bubba]
Bubba Offline


Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 2
"Sorry to answer an ancient post, but it came up in something I was searching for in Google."

that's why I ended with this?

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