I am a SGT in the US Army and am trying to download a copy of DA PAM 165-13 which covers recognizzed religeons in the military with no sucess. I have been able to find parts of it but I need the entire regulation, ideally in PDF format. Of course the Chaplains home page and AKO is less worthless on this matter. Does anyone have this regulation?

Link

As of now, "Satanism" is not specifically on the list of religions, but you can claim "Other Religion" (though once you see "the list", you'll be surprised to see what specifically is on that list). However, as you know, you can have your own set of dog tags made with "Satanist" on them (as I have), and even if they are inspected, no one is usually the wiser, and won't force you to change it to "Other Religion" (unless they have "the list").

When I was just recently in Kuwait, as part of my outprocessing from Iraq, I was privy to "the list" because I tried to slyly get them to make me an extra set of what I already owned (i.e. "Satanist"), but there was a double take, and they went up the local chain, who then produced "the list" and they said if I wanted a new set made, it would have to be "Other Religion" (I also attempted this when officially changing my records about 6 months prior in Iraq, but again, no dice).

This could be fought for, but until directed by Central, I would not dare try. I am sure they are well aware of these facts.

This may be of some use.

I was of the impression that SATANISM is somewhat respected in the military mabye not always in recognition but none the less respected. I have been told that SATANISM is on the LIST when I was in boot camp. If this LIST has changed you would surely not be punished just for your taste and preferences, unless it caused a pattern of disturbances amongst others or violated the HATE GROUP POLICY . To get a copy of the LIST go to the nearest LEAGAL OFFICE where they deal with court martial. Ask politely they have rules and regulations up the anus and they would probably be more than delighted to share their knowledge with you maybe even print it out.

I would suggest keeping Satanism on the down low while in the military. Even if it is written somewhere that Satanism is an accepted religion it might not be to your surperiors. You could raise the "Hate" or "discrimination" flag but those in the higher ranks do have pull. Others will take the side of the old crusty Master Sergeant who has 20 years under his belt and not some two year wet nosed PFC (I know you are a Sergeant but even a six year Sergeant does not have as much pull as a 12 year or more SNCO). Don't burn any bridges is what I am basically saying.

I kept my Satanism private while in the Marines and I did just fine. There was no reason for them to know and I saw no benefit to be opened about it.

This country was built on Satanism, wasn't it? The Pentagon... "In god we trust" on our money? I'm sure there's other theories...

Forgive my suspicion; I am sure that being a military man you will understand.

I noticed in your introduction that you have been in the miltary since 1998 - that's 6 years now. It seems strange you have not already discovered this information in that time.

Also I have noticed that you have trouble with spelling and grammar - this strikes me as odd for someone who has attained the rank of SGT and must have some official paperwork on a fairly regular basis.

Just something that struck me. That's all.

Also I have noticed that you have trouble with spelling and grammar - this strikes me as odd for someone who has attained the rank of SGT and must have some official paperwork on a fairly regular basis.

One of the differences between the US and British militaries, it seems.

Read the previous reply for info on Grammer! As for the rest, I have been busy with my education and the education of my soldiers, also please notice that I am assigned to a Military Police Battalion- and they don't play. Military Police uphold the standard and all that crap! I'm a busy guy and have a lot of responsibilities, also I hadn't really taken all of the views all that seriously until these past few years and as you can well imagine I didn't think they would go over all that well in the military; and believe me I am not trying to advertise, but I have seen alot of messed up crap in the military happen to a lot of decent people. I still believe in the military and all it stands for; just sometimes- it doesn't stand for the soldier.

Here's a question, Sergeant: why?

Just for the record, I'm active duty Air Force and I hardly make it a secret that I'm a Satanist--however, I don't wear a flashing neon banner displaying my chosen religion either. But, much like CaesarsGhost, my dog tags also say "Satanist".

I'm just curious as to why you need to review what the military's stance is on Satanism. Is there a problem of some sort?

Yes I have been slow to accept the way- officially. Don't shoot!!!!!
Just for the hell of it- look up DA-Pam 165-13 or "authorized religeons in the US Army". See if you don't get any further than I did. And by the way, quotes or exerts from regulations do me no good. What do you have to lose? Yes I read what is posted on the CoS website- but it's outdated, can't help me, can you?

No Problem actually, I just want to be ready if asked and also I am not the Equal Opportunity Guy; but I want to be able to help my soldiers should the problem ever arise. I am not asking for the world here, I am just trying to find a regulation which does exist- yet it seems to be a ghost, mostly I want to see what it says out of curiosity becuase I have read quotes from it supposedly but cannot find the actual regulation.

>>I have been busy with my education<<

Which obviously hasn't included spelling and grammar

Ok, here's my reasoning:

In WWII there used to be this very pertinent maxim - "careless talk costs lives" which was placed on warning posters which were then hung about all over the country as a reminder to everyone.

The premise of this was that one has to be careful in speaking to strangers, however seemingly innocuous it may seem. A man at the bus stop, a woman in a bar, a couple on a train. Anyone could be an enemy.

It is a fact that some of those people who failed to heed this warning did cost others their lives.


Here, with the internet is an even greater risk.

Let us say a stranger came on here; as you have done, and asked the questions such as you have asked (a seemingly innocent enough place and seemingly innocent enough questions).

Of course, some of the military personel can relate to your dilemma - they have been there too - so they respond and ultimately "friendships" can be forged, more meaningful contact evolved over time.

Again, we have a situation where a seemingly innocuous friendship could quite easily not be all that it appears.

Not everyone is who they claim. Any contact could become a foothold for an enemy.

We are at war. We have men and women in a warzone.

Careless talk costs lives.

Does this sound far-fetched? Do you think it stupid?

I would have thought it was obvious to any member of the Military Police.

No, it was not. Satanism didn't exist then.

My own theory is that the religion which most closely resembles the ideals and concepts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights is Protestant. There are varying opinions. We already know about the Freemason connection. We know that most of the Founders were Protestant, or as it has been pointed out to me, other denominations of Protestant. We also know that none of them were right-wing evangelical Christians, such as those who now claim that the USA was founded on Christianity.

So far, I don't know any Satanists who believe in sacred geometry with the single exception of the trapezoid. I hardly think that the Pentagon is a reference to any of LaVey's principles. LaVey invented his own meanings for the pentagram/baphomet of Levi and earlier irrelevant sources. "In God We Trust" and the eye at the top of the pyramid is an Egyptian/Freemason reference to my knowledge to a monotheistic God, i.e., Akhenaton, which certainly isn't the anti-theism of Satanists.

Look here sissy. I don't care what you think. All I am asking for is can you help me fing DA PAM 165-13? Look for it yourself before you show me how worthless you are. I don't give a shit if you are a CoS member becuase you may have a card- but you don't live it! If you are not willing to help me look for a regulation then don't waste my time!

Yes, Satanism is an officially recognized religion in the Army...there used to be a Satanic chaplain! He was a Colonel. I saw him on a Geraldo special on Satanism back in '88 - '90 sometime. I had a problem with my squad leader when I converted my religious preference. He tried to bar me from putting it on my dog tags until our EO NCO told him it was legit & he couldn't stop me. He still asked me not to wear those tags when I jumped...of course, I wore them anyway! Hope this sheds some light on the subject for you.

This is great and it's what I need- almost. Do you have a copy of the regulation? It is not on the chaplains page as can well be expected I suppose, but it's not on AKO (Army Knowledge Onnline) either.

If asked just lie. Lying to a superior is illegal but not when it comes to your religion. Sure it is illegal for them to harass you based on religion but they can find other ways of getting under your skin.

You may never find that regulation. So it all boils down to you deciding to remain covert or overt.

So if you ever find this regulation are you going to march around on the parade deck and loudly shout "I am a Satanist!"? Or are you going to keep quiet. If the later than do you really need that regulation? A good trait I learned while in the Marines was when to keep my mouth shut and when to speak up.

What if you never find that regulation? Does it really matter? Do you need to spend so much energy trying to uncover it? What would be the beneficial results if you did?

Also you did not need to be so rude to Mr. UVRay. He asked in a respectful manner and so you should do the same even if you disagree.

You have proved what I suspected to be true.

By your behaviour it is apparent that you are no ranked serviceman.

In fact not a serviceman at all. You display far too much immaturity to even be a soldier, let alone a SGT in the military police.

Proving what I was saying all along.

I believe that (once again) you've read the situation accurately, Mr. UVRAY.

This man, whoever he is, has absolutely no respect for anyone. He has come here demanding answers to his questions. He is a waste of time and should not be given the time of day.

Well, I am aware of military regulations and viewpoints with regards to Satanism and any other religion whilst serving in the forces.

There are things that become apparent.

Especially after you have served for six years, as YOU claim to have done.

There is no doubt in my mind, as there wasn't from the outset, that YOU are NOT a military man.

You are a liar. And your reaction to me, especially in view of the fact that I courteously explained my reasons, proves that I was correct in my assessment.

You are a rude and insolent teenager. Nothing more.

You can order it here, it looks like.

http://www.military-info.com/mphoto/Manuallist/miscarmy.htm

It took me about 5 seconds typing it into Google and hitting "search".

I hope anyone who wasted their time here feels really fucking cool.

I apoogize, I came back from a friend's wedding party and got irked when I read his post.
No I don't plan on shouting it out, I read on the CoS web page it was authorized but wanted to check it out myself , that's all.

I apoligize for getting pissed of on your post, I asked a simple question on how to find a regulation that's all.
Yes I am in fact in the military, no I am NOT a Military Police, I am assigned to thier Battalion. I did find the information I was looking for; Satanism is not recognized in the Military, the info I was trying to confirm was posted on the CoS web page somewhere or something I had googled and it referred to the military regulation I was looking for. The info was either Bogus or outdated.

Wow, I wish I had read this one sooner. It was as I had expected no longer official Army doctorine which explains why I was having such a hard time finding it even though I could find dozens of references to it.
Thanks! The reason I was looking for it was:
1. I had read somewhere it was authorized.
2. I was approached by a soldier who asked me about Satanism and also about Masonry (no I am not a Mason) both of which it seems, are not authorized in the Army. The soldier has no idea what my beliefs are but he approached me because I am his Team Leader- of course I was unable to answer the Satanic question, the Masonic one I could because MY supervisor is a Mason and I asked him straight out if it was authorized, which I had always heard it was not. His response was not it was not authorized even though he proudly wears his ring and watch (as do many others) and he acknowledged if someone was to call him out on it he would be screwed.
The best I was able to do for the soldier was to refer him to the Equal Opportunity Rep. and as it turns out the EO Rep was wrong as well. Fortunately he is a good friend of mine and has unasual views as well (he is a Kabbalist, sp?) and keeps his thoughts, and the thoughts of others to himself.

Thanks again, this has been a big help

I sent an email to CoS and here is the response I got:

The Department of the Army has changed things recently, under the Bush administration, and the previous chaplain’s handbook which listed many alternative religions has been allowed to go out of print, leaving things more nebulous.

They had moved to presenting a web site which updated the manual, and it included links to our site. However, that now is also gone.

Can you help ,me to download DA PAM 165-13? that's all I'm asking for.


If you visit our Sources page, you will find a link to the older version of the manual.

Sources at www.churchofsatan.com.

Administration
Church of Satan
www.churchofsatan.com


On 4/17/04 1:28 PM, "robert hall" wrote:


Sorry I hate to bother you, I have tried to search for the answer myself on the Internet and I have asked many Non Commisioned Officers in the Army. I have found that regulation DA PAM 165-13 covers religeons authorized or recognized by the military and have found some reference on the CoS webpage as well, unfortunately the web page is way outdated and as can be imagined, although there is reference to the regulation- it is not available off the internet. Not even off the Chaplain's home page- go figure!
I have tried to ask on the ask Satan web page and some of the members have tried to be helpfull but unfortunately were not better off than me at finding the answer.

That is the end of the email

It seems Knocko was correct and that explains why I have been unable to download it.

Also some of this was a waste of time and I am at least partyly (or mostly) to blame, I guess I shouldn't have been reading the post responses after drinking. Thanks.
This has answered my question at least so it wasn't a total waste of time.

I'm glad that I could (finally) help. I just wish it would have helped before things got out of hand. Next time I CAP and BOLD my Subject header so people look there. I was a Satanist when I joined the Navy and I had to deal with many a problem; I was heavily scrutinized and I followed all the proper procedures. I did as much research as I could and I was eventually accepted, but only because my command officers wrote me off as a Wiccan (which for some reason they can accept).

If the link I gave you does not help, then I'm afraid I don't know of any other resources with the "updated" manual. It sounds to me like there isn't one.

Not to defend him, or his behavior, but I've met plenty of NCO's that were immature and slaughtered the English language, to boot. Sorry to answer an ancient post, but it came up in something I was searching for in Google.

Bubba, you are replying to a post from 2004.

Please look at the age of the thread before resurrecting it.

"Sorry to answer an ancient post, but it came up in something I was searching for in Google."

that's why I ended with this?