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#361312 - 11/20/08 05:25 PM COS and the Temple of Vampire?
LoneNights Offline



Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Japan

Ok now after seeing so many people with the TOV banner or a link to their site in their signature I decided to check it out and well I just have to ask how one can be a member of both. I mean just reading the Satanic Bunco sheet would seem to place the COS and TOV at odds:
2. Look out for jargon and secrets to which only the “initiated” can be privy. Once you’re processed through the lengthy and strictly-enforced “degree system,” you’ll discover there are really no answers, just more gobbledygook. If they have something worthwhile to say, they’ll say it. If they don’t, they’ll pretend they do anyway

I mean their site talks about a coming APOCALYPSE and from what I have been able to gather from online research they seem to believe that only THEY can avoid this fate. Wait who else seems to believe this exact same thing? Christians perhaps?
I just get the feeling that they are yet another "salvation only comes through what we can give you" group and this would set them at odds with everything that I have learned thus far about Satanism and the COS. So if you don’t mind me asking how can any one be a member of both (because I seem to remember the COS website stating that you WILL lose membership for openly and publicly espousing nonsatanic concepts) let alone high ranking COS clergy?
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People are so endlessly stupid that it frustrates me like an angry autistic in a really small wool sweater. Josie_Gallows

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#361315 - 11/20/08 05:43 PM Wrong message board. [Re: LoneNights]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12406
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
This message board is about Satanism.

The TOV is not discussed here because it is not about Satanism.

Members of the Church of Satan are not required to drop affiliation with all other groups, especially those few that are actually supportive of the Church of Satan. (See the listing near the bottom of the Church of Satan webpage Societies).

This message board is about Satanism, not other groups, and this forum concerns "Questions about the Church of Satan", not other groups.

If you want to discuss other groups then please do so there and not here.

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#361337 - 11/20/08 07:05 PM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: Nemo]
LoneNights Offline



Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Japan
Magister normally your response would be all that was required for me to zip it and post an apology but I am not really wanting to ask about the TOV here. My question is how can one be a member of ANY group thats veiws seem contrary to what the COS believes and requires its members to believe. It should not matter that a group is supportive of the COS if its views are contrary to what is set out for membership then one cannot be a member of both.
Esprot de Corps Infernal states that when ones beliefs run contrarty to the COS docterin then one invalidates ones own membership without the administration having to do anything. Though I am sure I read somewhere eles on the COS website that you can lose membership over such a thing.
I am seriously considering joining the Church but aside from wanting to read the rest of the material put out by the good Doctor before doing so I am also going to raise any concerns I have and this is one of them. If the Church does not enforce its stated rules then whats the point of even having them? I have been in a church thats leadership does not hold to the tenits of its book and I am not going to make this mistake again. I hope that you understand the reason for my concern and that I dont come off as anything more the sincere in my questioning.
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People are so endlessly stupid that it frustrates me like an angry autistic in a really small wool sweater. Josie_Gallows

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#361342 - 11/20/08 07:47 PM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: LoneNights]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12406
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
Esprot de Corps Infernal states that when ones beliefs run contrarty to the COS docterin then one invalidates ones own membership without the administration having to do anything.


It seems you had your answer already.

In fact, Esprit de Corps Infernal states:

Quote:
Should someone who once joined decide that his concept of Satanism is somehow different, then he is in fact resigning himself from the organization through his personal choice to adopt a differing definition, a de facto embracing of some other position which is not Satanism as established by Dr. LaVey. This is a disaffiliation on a truly fundamental level, not requiring any formal expulsion, for the individual in question has intellectually abandoned the tenets that are required for his membership to be valid.


I sincerely doubt that this can be made any more clear than that.

Loyalty is its own reward.

Disloyalty is always noted for what it is as well.

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#361346 - 11/20/08 08:10 PM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: Nemo]
LoneNights Offline



Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Japan
Well I guess I did in fact find my own answer. Thank you for your time Magister. I was in fact hoping that it would be you that answered this thread as I have come to enjoy the no bull responses that you often give to things.
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People are so endlessly stupid that it frustrates me like an angry autistic in a really small wool sweater. Josie_Gallows

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#361367 - 11/20/08 10:02 PM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: LoneNights]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Perhaps you should look here.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#401896 - 11/14/09 09:05 AM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: Phineas]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Thought I'd throw the dust off this topic in hopes of a more direct response to this issue.
I understand that in relation to the ToV it does advertise itself as a "secret society", so I won't get too pedantic in my queries.

Nemo, your answers regarding the question seemed to relate to the immediate differentiation on a person's beliefs in accordance with the Church of Satan. More so that, from what I understand... When a person stops adhearing to the philosophy of Satanism, they cease to be one.

However this does not explain the connection so many people on this message board have between the Church of Satan and the Vampire Temple. Namely, and by the defining points in this topic, it's been established that one cannot be a member of both by the definition of each organisation's philosophies.

Please understand I don't want to start a shit storm over the issue, I'm simply curious... esspecially since the Vampire Temple parades around the concept of "Undead Gods". Because last time I checked, Satanism wasn't theistic.

P.S. I understand I may get a few people fueled up about this, but consider this... The pursuit of knowledge in all forms is a core belief in Satanism, for me to not attempt the understanding of this issue, is in my opinion a sin. The ability to gain information from the Temple of the Vampire regarding this issue holds merit of attracting bias, and I would prefer to use an open forum to see ranges of opinions/beliefs. If the ToV had a public forum I would of course use that aswell.


Edited by Maikeru (11/14/09 09:13 AM)

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#401902 - 11/14/09 09:47 AM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: MoongleMoose]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Your continued use of the word "belief" makes me wonder if you indeed comprehend what Satanism is about.

Nothing about Satanism is based on belief.

The TOV has commonalities with the Church of Satan, therefore membership in both organizations is not incompatible. This has already been explained at length.

See my posts above.

The TOV website contains instructions on how to join their message board.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#401914 - 11/14/09 11:04 AM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: MoongleMoose]
RMerciless Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 306
Loc: Washington, DC
Ultimately it comes down to individual choices and perceptions.

Clearly there is a certain subset of members of the Church of Satan who are also members of the TOV. These are people who have investigated the structures and doctrines of both entities and found them to be compatible, and in some fashion even blendable, within their own individual view of the universe and their own individual philosophy of life.

Others do not.

If you are looking for a detailed doctrinal comparison between the two, or an explanation that rationalizes some of the obvious explicit differences, you will only find that inside your own head...which is the only place that it matters.

In the case of both institutions, it is the individual seeker who must read, analyze, synthesize, and then act or not act.

If you find parts of one to be compatible with your personal outlook, embrace them and use them. If you find enough to be compatible, maybe even join. If there are viewpoints or practices which you find incompatible, ignore them. If you find a sufficient amount to be incompatible, quit or avoid the institution altogether.
_________________________
Robert the Merciless
Washington, DC
Rabid Crow Arts & Graphics - Selling devilish art to wear and to hang
Lucifer Muse- My Dark / Ritual Music Project

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#401969 - 11/14/09 08:35 PM Re: Wrong message board. [Re: RMerciless]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Thankyou RMerciless, that's pretty much the answer I was looking for.
I shall drop the issue.

Quote:
Belief
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction.

Yes mate, my opinions and conviction in the Satanic religion are indeed sound.


Edited by Maikeru (11/14/09 10:40 PM)

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