Well finally the time has come... as some of you know ... the server we are sitting on right now was hacked a few days ago. Just to give you some statistics ... this server gets "attacked" by over 500 IP addresses a day. Most of the attacks are from outside the USA, mostly from Romania, slovic nations, russia, china ... but most of them are just random brute force scripts that get blocked easily. The hackers in this case used a flaw in one of the website scripts from a site I was hosting, they were able to gain access to the server and modify the files on it in order to open some back doors into the system. Now I caught it before they could do any real harm. But as with any server, once it has been hacked and files have been modifed ... you have to abandon the server because there is always the chance you miss something and they still have access.

I have patched up all the back doors I could find and so far I have been able to stop them from getting back in. Regardless, I will be purchasing a new server and moving everything over to it during the next week. Sadly, this is a TON of work, moving all the domains, files, and databases. Also re-keying all of the SSL (secure certificates) to the new server, changing all the IP addresses on the new server and a bunch of other things. So if the site seems a little flaky here and there, bare with me! I will get everything back up and running shortly with no loss of data!

The new server will be more powerful and will come with higher levels of security to stop these attacks in the future. This new server will cost a bit more than the current one so that becomes an issue. I am also not going to be hosting other peoples sites any longer, as I do not have the time to be a hosting company plus I would need employees in order to monitor the server and all the sites full time. When you charge nothing or next to nothing for hosting, that is just not feasible. All my projects and companies will remain along with churchofsatan.com, vampiretemple.com, and coopstuff.com ... all of these sites, I monitor personally and upgrade or fix any security issues as they come out. So I know these sites are safe and secure. I just do not have the time to watch and secure the dozens of other sites I host along with doing everything I do in a day (if there were only a few more hours in a day!).

I believe the time has come sadly, that I may need to charge a small subscription fee for the use of this forum. Now mind you it will only equate to $1 or $2 a month and will be in the term of per year. The Market Place, Announcements, New Users, and comments section will stay free. The subscription will be for all forums past that. Also there will NOT be an extra charge for the CoS Members area, that will remain the same, if you are a CoS Member you will have access to it at no extra charge.

So ultimately, I am interested in your thoughts and feelings towards this. I have placed a poll below and you can also reply with your thoughts.

Thank you!

I did not submit a vote, but I will provide my opinion.

As I use this service often, have enjoyed it, and enjoy the topics and discussions, I may indeed pay to subscribe, especially if the price was low. If my life got busier or I had a job that did not require me to sit at a computer all day, I would probably not subscribe.

However, apart from how I feel personally, I think it would limit future subscribers. If a browsing user sees only the kennel drivel they may not be inclined to think there's much more downstairs.

Also, you risk losing many of the users/members to a free forum that pops up immediately after you begin charging here. I think there's a sense of loyalty that's bred here because it is free; I'm certainly more inclined to buy goods from your sites because of how much I use the forum. But if a new user was surfing the net fresh with TSB in his mind...he/she might not be so inclined to pay for a service without knowing exactly what they're getting.

Just a few thoughts.

And...a big THANK YOU for LttD and all your hard work.

I have found (in my limited time here) your site to be a wonderful resource. I would not be put off by a modest sum to see LttD continue unabated.

To be honest...I have been expecting this.

I'd be more than happy to pay for your services.

Here is my personal take on the matter.

First for the Church of Satan Members: They have access to some of the best forums downstairs. I know this because I have personally spoken to several Satanists who have given me insight on just how massive the basement really is. With a count of over 82 forums that would mean upstairs doesn't even cover half of the message board! So members of the Church of Satan would get a great benefit out of submitting the VERY small amount you are asking for.

One benefit to this is that it would encourage many non-members to step up with the goods and join in order to have possible access and not just "lurk" here. Not that joining should be for this purpose alone. It is just an added benefit.

The second benefit is that it would filter out the assholes who whine about why the Church of Satan charges money because they wouldn't want to pay to be here in the first place.

Now for non-members: Non-members unfortunately do not have access to the basement but there is a reason for this obviously. Yet I feel that the long time members of this message board should have SOME sort of access to forums that travel slightly more in depth than the portions we see now if they are willing to pay a reasonable small fee. I have honestly benefited greatly from discussions here and have learned a ton and would gladly pay. The reason why I also suggest more in depth forums is also some may not have access to PAYPAL and may actually go through the trouble of mailing in payment. I think that's loyalty in my opinion.

The benefits: Non-members would benefit because they would not have to wade through any bullshit posts because the payments would filter out the vermin. Though I admit the Moderators have always made good time of kicking people out of the door and made others laugh while doing it. The other benefit is that the discussions would be more homed in on for the forums specific use-SATANISM. Not that this board has fell short of that but here and there it has. Not anyone's fault per say accept the vermin that show up here and make a mess.

The negative: People who stumble upon this website with little concept of Satanism will not know for certain what is being offered here. How could they if they have no access to the discussions? As anyone should know, Satanists aren't too keen on taking things by faith. I am sure that this could be remedied in someway-perhaps a public questions forum of sorts, I don't know.

I would be curious to know how well this would play with insightful members of the Church of Satan. Would they be much more inclined for discussions in far more depth because the lot lice have been removed or would they still stay in the basement? Obviously nobody is obligated to provide answers, interact in discussions, or even participate with anyone. It just would be fun to see who may pop in after the stage has been swept up.

Well I thank you Magister Ventrue for being an ever patient man, wise in your ways, and working diligently in everything you have ever done. I hope once everything is settled you can at least get some extra sleep.

And thank you Moderators for doing such a damn good job!

HS!

I am happy with anything that will help improve and keep our forums up and open, and I am thankful however that members shouldn't have to pay to use their members forum (just a perk of being a member).

Thanks for everything we really appreciate it and understand the commitment and work you put into everything.

HS!

For anyone brand new here you probably have never seen what LttD looked like say about 5-6 years ago. To really appreciate the hard work Magister Ventrue has done and understand just how far LttD truly has come: www.personalsatan.com

Damn thats old ... I remember that though ... but ... I will have to dig in my stuff one day ... I have a floppy that has the Original version of LttD from 12 to 14 years ago ... this board has been around for a long long time!

"The Church of Satan DOES NOT have an official chat room. We have NEVER had an official chat room. There are no chat rooms affiliated in ANY WAY with the Church of Satan" -Church of Satan Chat Room Policies

"Also there will NOT be an extra charge for the CoS Members area, that will remain the same, if you are a CoS Member you will have access to it at no extra charge." -Magister_Ventrue

"First for the Church of Satan Members: They have access to some of the best forums downstairs."
"With a count of over 82 forums that would mean upstairs doesn't even cover half of the message board! So members of the Church of Satan would get a great benefit out of submitting the VERY small amount you are asking for." -Unknown

These are details to point out, not attacks.
-No "Official" CoS Chat Room.
-No charge to CoS members for using the Chat room would make it the "Official" chat room that doesn't really exist per CoS, but a "service" to non-members not a "privilege" because of the exchange of money.
-Non-members fit the bill for Non-members AND CoS members even tough CoS members have the better deal.?

And I saw this just over a month ago:
Post #352545 Re: Thank You Magister Ventrue... "Donate to the Devil" Perhaps?
"Thank you for your suggestions but I built this system on the fact that unlike all the other sites out there, Satannet (or anything else I create for that matter) will never ask for donations. It will always be a free system, and I will do whatever I need to make sure it stays that way.

This is the core reason why I have always stated, if you want to give back to these services, purchase something from one of my stores. All proceeds from the CoS Emporium go to hosting fees and upgrades to the system (along with funding the creation of new products). In the case of my fragrance company (EveningEclipse), some proceeds from there go to funding and upgrading the Undercroft." -Magister_Ventrue

So what has changed in a month?

Your question: "what has changed in the last month?", is answered specifically and explicitly in great detail in the original post by Magister Ventrue, the first one in this thread.

1. Did you even read it? If not, read the posts before asking questions.

2. If you did read it, you seem to have a problem with basic reading comprehension, at least as far as your question here goes, as the entire post answered that exact question.

3. Or are you just being a deliberate shit disturber?

If 1., do read posts before asking silly questions.

If 2., try to understand what you're reading before posting silly questions.

If 3., just go away.

Before you respond, bear in mind that it is a Moderator of Lttd you are responding to.

A snarky and sarcastic response will only likely get you banned.

But I suspect that is actually what you want.

So, 1., or 2., or 3.?

Where do you live?

Because if it is on the planet Earth and you haven't noticed what is happening to the economy you need to buy a newspaper.

The issue is whether the Magister, who for over a decade has provided more free services to Satanists worldwide than any other human being alive, can uphold his standard of living without some sacrifices being made.

I do not know a single human being, not a doctor, not lawyer, not a bag boy, who hasn't had to adjust for the economy.

Gambling establishment owners, drug dealers and prostitutes are the only people who fare well under this sort of economy.

Of course the other option is that whiners with no appreciation can stop having access. 'no loss there as far as I can tell.

Y~

As everyone has stated ... you should read ... Everything I run costs money ... that I pay out of pocket. This messageboard software costs money, the plugins cost money, the server it runs on costs money. The new server I am forced to buy costs money. My time keeping this board up costs money.

If you were not around for the ebay auctions I just had where I sold almost all of my own personal belongings that I have collected over the last decade, just to keep this server online and running ... Well I ran out of things to sell!

I have been more than generous by giving back to "Satanists" over the last 15 years. As Magistra Ygraine has mentioned, I have offered up more free services than anyone else, I have done more for Satanism online than anyone else, I have built a home for Satanists, defended it in court, and never charged a dime for it.

As you state, yes I did post that I would prefer to never charge for LttD, and that people should buy from the emporium or Evening Eclipse. Well apparently that is not happening, and I can understand why ... not everyone likes candles or uses them and most people already own everything on the emporium. One thing remains true though ... I will never ask for donations ... if a subscription fee goes in place it will be a subscription fee not a donation. With the subscription fee will come new features as with any "pay" system, more value for your money.

As far as your CoS Official chatroom rant ... you clearly did NOT read my post, I stated that everyone would have to pay the subscription fee, even CoS Members ... but they would not have to pay any EXTRA to gain access to the CoS Members section. TO add to that all board users will NOT have to pay any extra for any new and future features.

I am also trying to work out a way for the Undercroft to stay free, currently it is going to cost me a little under $1000 to bring it back online in software fees. .... and why do I spend that kind of money ...unlike all the other idiots who try these things ... I do it right the first time! I find exactly what will work and what I can modify to work ... I spend my money to buy it, I build it, and then give it out to everyone to use for free.... I don't just "deal" with free crap software and just hope it kind of works. I have dedicated half my life so far to Satanism Online ... what have you done?

I reiterate my point.

Thank you for responding Magister_Ventrue and explaining what was left out of the first statement you posted, about your normal means of paying for it not working. That is all I was questioning.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did read it. Hence the reason I replied.
The reason why I asked the question is because if YOU would have read Magister_Ventrue quote:

Here let me post again so you can read it.
"....It will always be a free system, and I will do whatever I need to make sure it stays that way."

"This is the core reason why I have always stated, if you want to give back to these services, purchase something from one of my stores. All proceeds from the CoS Emporium go to hosting fees and upgrades to the system (along with funding the creation of new products). In the case of my fragrance company (EveningEclipse), some proceeds from their go to funding and upgrading the Undercroft."

I was asking Magister_Ventrue.
I can see his stance has changed dramatically, and was inquiring why, to Magister_Ventrue as he only stated the problem was with hacking NOT how he normally supports this site.
Are the normal ways of supporting hosting fees and upgrades not working?
As a person that will have to pay the same but only have limited service, as I am NOT an elite who will have special service, I think this is a valid question.


Like I said this was NOT an attack I can see that is all I will receive from members.
I just think I hit on a nerve that most people are afraid to mention.

And yes, if you assault me hard enough I just might go away and no one will question these inconsistencies or others. Then you will have no one to question at all, just followers; as I am starting to see that is what is welcomed here, not people that question.

My experiences have been much different. It isn't what you ask, but how you ask it. Tact would serve you well.

The least Satanic thing about LttD is that it has been free. The fact that it has been here at all is appreciated. Magister Ventrue has done everyone a great service at his expense for too long. No Satanist worth their sulfur would say that this should be free and that Magister Ventrue should provide it for free.

I wouldn't mind too much if subscriptions were required. I do see Zaftig's point in that newbies with potential might be turned off by the posts in the remaining free sections.

Another idea is this: there are a number of very talented CoS members with projects to market. Why not charge for ads, like how MySpace Ads does it, by bid per time frame and with charges perhaps per click. There could be a standard size specified and ads would need to be approved beforehand, but imagine how this could benefit all parties involved.

Despite the attacks and MY lack of "tact", I may have helped the cause by the poll numbers?

Thank you Andy Kaufman "Inter-Gender Wrestling Champion of the World".

And despite any assumptions, as a business owner myself, Magister_Ventrue should not fit the bill alone. The minimal fee is fair.

I fully support your move to begin charging a subscription fee for the LttD. Instead of a poll asking if we would be willing to pay a nominal fee of $1 or $2 it may be more beneficial to produce a poll that gives us a range for what we would be willing to pay a year. Don’t sell yourself short by asking so little.

For example, a poll that’s asks us,

“What is LttD worth to you a year?

• $24
• $36
• $48
• $66

Once you see where the numbers fall, base the subscription on where you will get the biggest bang for your efforts.

Magister Ventrue,

I would personaly have no problem with paying fee for this WONDERFUL forum. I was even wondering why there were no fee at all to begin with...

HS!

Warlock Sonny

Magister Ventrue,

Perhaps you could offer free subscriptions with Evening Eclipse/Emporium orders over a certain dollar amount. That would help cover your costs at LttD and boost sales at the same time.

I have no problem in paying a fee, and as has been stated before it is about time there was one. Having in it all hanging in your "wallet" all these years must have not been easy.

I would have no problems with this. I intend on submitting my Membership Application myself in a few months, and what from what I have heard, the "downstairs" is easily worth a small yearly fee.

12 or 24 $ for one Year !!!!

NO PROBLEM !

This Forum is VITAL for a Satanist !

HS!

Thierry

Magister,
Your generosity has been overwhelming. Your business ethics impecable. The time that you spend not only maintaining the sites(both Lttd and Undercroft) as well as the time assisting those of us who have a problem connecting to renovations ( as you did with me with the last incarnation of Undercroft) have all been donated freely by you. And, personally , greatly appreciated.
I am surprised that this has not come up before this. The fee would be money well spent. One pays willingly for that of value to them.
You have worked very hard to keep the sites secure and the membership on both safe. Thank you.

Would it help if we had the option of paying for one year up front of LttD services?
That may take some of the pressure off of launching Undercroft.

I would pay without hesitation. I thoroughly enjoy the insights and opinions of many members, and estimate the fee to be some of my best-spent money in terms of "what do I get from it."

I can see 3 drawbacks:

As Zaftig stated, new people would be expected to pay without knowing what they are spending their money for. However, many pay the COS membership fee without any other insight than the available literature and website, because they consider it worth it. These sources are still available for someone considering joining LttD. I am not talking about people who might want their red card to get access to the LttD basement, first because LttD and the CoS are different entities, second, because even those who do so don't know what they'll find "down there." These persons apparently find motivation enough from the available resources. Many members who make the most worthwhile contributions here also have their own blog or website, which would also still be available. In addition, a couple of forums would still be available to the public,which would provide some more specific insight.

Another problem might be the shit-disturbers: Certainly having to pay a fee would filter out most of them, but one would still find some particularly persistent chunks, who would be doubly annoying because they would now feel entitled to our undivided attention: they paid, so they are kings. Kicking them out would breed a lot more resentment than it does now, probably with subsequent harassment.

Third point: posters are supposed to "pay their way" here by contributing in a constructive manner, but there might be a few users who will clutter the forums with unconstructive, pointless and stupid "social chat," and feel entitled to do so because they "already paid their way in." In the long run, these will more than probably fall into the n°2 problem section, though.

All in all, I see no drawbacks in instauring a fee. That is, apart from actually making the payment itself!

I was wondering when this would come up.

I have no problem with a subscription fee (Your call, your Lair).

Besides offsetting out of pocket costs to you, it would also help to get rid of people who complain about such things.
I enjoy your websites and appreciate all the hard work that you have put into them. They have value and provide a place for the vital exchange of ideas.

Thank you for creating and maintaining them, and I wish you continued success in all of your endeavours!

HS!

To be honest I've often said that charging even just a small fee here would help to screen out many undesirables.

And that's completely aside from your own financial situation (ie, the money actually being needed to keep the thing running).

I have to agree with most people on the thread. It's really quite difficult to just refer to this as a Website. I have met Friends and foes here. I have grown and made mistakes here. I have learned and Satan forbid, may have even got a point or 2 across here. I met my Fiance here ( sorry Magister, I know you cringe at the meeting people parts but it is true). I have have received words of encouragement and support in times of need, and been able to offer them in return. I have had so many great laughs and fits of anger while sitting in the parlor of this great virtual Black House.
Now, our landlord is asking for a little bit to help offset construction and hedge trimming. What ever You ask Magister, it is a small price to pay for so many memories had as well as those yet to come. Count me in for at the base of things, THIS is the house Ventrue built and we are ALL lucky to have such a gracious Host.

I vote for subscriptions.

May I add the idea of varying lengths of subscription? May be a short subscription option for newbies such as a month-by-month subscription.

Er.. and how about a candle of the month club.... I would LOVE that!!!!

Thank you Magister for everything you have done for us.

Not being able to vote "Yes" twice for a subscription charge.

Member wise, I am still very new here, so what I say most likely won't even be looked at, but I did have a few thoughts on it.

I can recall, from a few years back, that Kevin Smith charged a one dollar lifetime fee for his forums. He did so, not to keep up the server or anything, but to keep out the idiots.


Anyways, as far as I know there are two "major" Satanic forums. There is LTTD and the COS bashing idiots whose name is an inverse of a Christian TV show. I did a Google search for Satanism forums and this is actually No. 3 on the list.

Now, I have been reading LTTD for a long time. I can remember reading them when I was 16, and it may have been possible that I even read it when I was 14-15. Can't remember if I did though.

This site has been integral in teaching me a lot. This site is integral to teaching newbies a lot too.

I can recall a couple years back, reading a lot of BS about the different forums and bickering going back and forth. When you're new to reading forums on Satanism, first impressions are important. To me, it just seemed like the satanic version of the East/West Coast rap BS. Sticking with the forums though, I got to see the quality that this site possessed over the others.

I was won over and have only bothered reading these forums since.

I think that the General Satanism needs to be free for people to get a feel for these forums. Not so much to participate in the discussions, but at least just to view.

The other threads are hit or miss, you're not really missing much if you can't view the humor, music and other sections. There are a lot of forums and sites, which are free, that allow discussion of those things, and I don't see anyone being won over to paying just for those sections.

The General Satanism one though, I think anyways, will be a big clincher in drawing people in. Without it, I think you're going to lose people to the other forums because they are free, for starters, and because people know what they are getting with those sites. I don't think that is a good thing. I just viewed one of the sites and it was filled with people who got banned here. Not to mention it talks a great lengths about BS, but if you're new to forums and Satanism, it may be hard to sort the BS from the gold without being able to compare and contrast.

The downside to leaving the General Satanism section open is you will end up with a lot of lurkers, but that is nothing new. The site is free and you still have lots of lurkers.


Personally, I think a good thing for drawing people in to pay money is maybe a "Best of" section. Give people a little taste of what the "downstairs" is like by adding locked topics that where quality threads when they where new to this section so people can see what they are missing.

I could dig paying a buck for that. As it stands, I voted no, but not because I am really opposed to it, just not sure at the moment.

Count me in. I'm all for it.

FC

Maybe the regular dialogues could be private to paying members. But at the discretion of the moderators, some of the discussions or threads could be made public by marking a posting or its thread visible. This difference could be hidden from the free users because they only see the dialogues that are made visible by the moderators. It could also be possible for the user to see threads that user initiated themselves since the user is part of the posting and the thread.

To the casual/free user, it appears to be a public forum. All threads made visible to the public by the moderators are visible to all. All users can post. The new thread is visible to the user that posted it. All new threads initiated by paying users are invisible to the free users unless a moderator makes the thread public.

Just as Questions about the Church of Satan do not allow replies by the non-priesthood, public threads that are visible to the free users do not permit the free users to reply to them (unless the thread was initiated by the free user).

It would give the forum the public and free face that has been so useful to many, but would also be kept from getting out of control because the free users will not be pulling everyone's chains all the time.

I believe moderators here also have a life of their own....

A reasonable user fee always has the advantage of weeding out the clowns that join (for free and only for free) any forum simply to piss off the actual users and moderator staff with innane or completly inapropriate comments and submitted content, Limiting their impact would at the very least save several moderators quite a few "buy the fucking bible and read the fucking bible" responses a month.

Even as a habitual lurker I cannot say i wouldn't pony up a few bucks towards cost of maintainance and operation, The content is well worth it.

You realize that idiots on forums are kinda the nature of the beast, right? LTTD is not the first or last forum to have to put up with idiots. The dollar fee isn't going to stop that. It will slow them down, sure, but it will hardly stop them.

I'm quite certain the phrase I used was "limiting impact" was it not?

Several of the other fourms i'm a part of are constiantly being bombarded with shit disurbers, the ones with the lowest incidents of such are the ones that require you to open the wallet a bit.

Magister,

I say charge a fee. Those that see value here will continue to see value and pay their fair share. Those that don't, won't. May the door hit them on their asses on the way out. I see it as a coarse filter to at least help remove the big chunks.

One advantage, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I know some people when they are banned just register again, and again. I am guessing they won't do that when they have to pay for it, literally.

Also, I think it will weed out the not so serious members of the forum.

Strength and Stratification!

HS!

E.

Magister Ventrue's cyberspaces have made a huge contribution, first to the proper distribution of correct information about the Church of Satan and Satanism, but also to the promotion of Satanic aesthetics through his online support of the products and projects of other Satanists. Add to that the sheer entertainment we've all received over the years through our interaction here, and you've got quite the wonderful gift, gratis.

He's done us proud and if he moved on to other things entirely, we'd have no grounds for complaint.

And if he wants to charge the equivalent of a Grande Latte once a month for what you get here, just to keep himself out of a financial bind, we have nothing to whine about.

One of Magister Ventrue's strengths is that he's always been able to make changes rapidly when his projects called for it, and I'm sure he'll be ahead of the curve on this one, too. I, for one, will be happy and excited to stick around and see what he comes up with next.

In my opinion Magistra Nadramia's vote should be all that is needed. She IS the official on-line representative of the Church of Satan as well as High Priestess. Consider the source of the vote!

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you on a sugar high? Your enthusiasm is almost blinding in its intensity. Before you crash maybe you would like to pay for the next decade of LttD fees up front?

I'm not big on subscriptions.

That's not to say I wouldn't pay for this board as I enjoy reading some of the posts here.

My question would be:

Any chance of a lifetime membership fee?

Ha!

As a matter of fact my girl friend's family has a "cookie weekend" where family members come over and bake cookies for 3 days then distributes them throughout the family. So yes I was on a sugar high from eating cookies and drinking coffee!

Since you are asking for opinions, I'm going to give one to you (otherwise I'd keep my mouth shut about it).

I have appreciated your services and used them to my advantage for years now. I have also linked back to your websites and purchased materials from your shops. Thank you for offering these services.

But I think that if you're going to charge for anything that takes time, effort and a lot of space then it would be The Undercroft. I don't use it, because I tend to dislike user-profile sites and honestly wish you would have never implimented this feature, but it seems to me that you may be adding stuff like music uploading and server intensive stuff way beyond the capabilities of this forum.

On LTTD, we tend to not do that. We tend to throw a picture up and a post. This is a PHP forum, a relatively simple thing to set up and impliment with basic knowledge of the software and with proper limitations there doesn't have to be a charge. The Undercroft? We'd mostly be hard-pressed to match your capabilities in that regard.

I say this because I don't think you really want to charge money for LTTD, because you never have and have stated time and time again that you never would. I think that you're asking because you still are really shy about doing it, maybe. You don't have to do it.

The Undercroft seems to me to be a lot more intensive, a hell of a lot more. Personally, I think the main page of Satannet should go a different direction and steer clear of the profile site idea that gives so many people the opportunity to provide poor examples of self-expression and laziness. In my opinion the last thing Satanism needs to be involved with is any variation of the Facebook/MySpace culture that has consumed the internet by storm and so, personally, I have opted out of all that.

But, you've decided it to be something you want to do so more power to you. Though somewhat to my own dismay and I fathom that I'm not alone on that.

So in short, my suggestion is to charge for The Undercroft. "Premium user" features on sites like that tend to provide hosting costs on much larger sites than the Undercroft and I myself have moderated in communities like Undercroft, back in the day, that are twice the size of this place and the premium functions tended to wrap everything up nicely.

Do it. Stratification, ya know!

I knew something was up. Mmmm cookies.

Exactly! I wondered the same thing myself.
I know damn well I couldn't have set up, much less kept up, even a miniscule (?)a site as well as you have this one Magister. In the time I've been a member here (even before joining CoS, I have been amazed at the intricacies of LttD.

HAIL VENTRUE!!!

In response to Warlock Apprenticius' suggested alteration of Mgister Ventrue's poll, I would say use of this board is worth, at least, $66 per year!

I couldn't agree with you more. In reading the thread, there were two people I was looking for. HP Nadramia was one of them, Magister Nemo was the other. IF I had not already voted a resounding YES, Magistra Nadramia's endorsement would have prompted the same vote!

Are you nuts? No forums, Satanic or not, is worth $66 bucks a year. Unless, of course, the good Magister starts adding porn. I ain't talking those modeling pics for the emporium either. I am talking about hardcore porn.

Sadly, even then it wouldn't be worth $66 bucks a year, and I probably just take the free tour.

I can picture you as a child "Teacher, teacher, you forgot to give us homework." Probably got beat up a lot too, eh?

Seriously though, no forum is worth $66 dollars and I don't care if God himself made it and Jesus was a moderator for it.


EDIT: Apparently I need to underline the point where I say seriously though, indicating that the above before that line, was kidding. The was lost on everyone.

$66 a year is eighteen cents a day.

If that's all it takes to get rid of you, then it's money well spent.

Go surf porn.

$66 a year is only $5.50 a month. LttD is well worth that.

Did somebody mention stratification?

That's cheaper than a magazine subscription.

Consider this.

Here in LttD you have the opportunity to interact with the Alien Elite and some of the most intelligent people in the world. Am I just bullshitting when I say this? Consider the Church of Satan's official website and look at all of the projects there. I'd also like to mention that the members of the Hierarchy who interact on THIS message board are men AND woman with many years of experience who share their wisdom. How much is that worth to you? Money can ALWAYS be made back but wisdom is something you can keep-forever. It is an investment. Do you invest in the internet, cable, or some other form of entertainment? Then why should this be any different?

This post alone is pretty much sealing the deal on the subscriptions! As Daark said .. go surf some porn!

Granted, I will not be charging $66 per year, in fact as it sits now it will be $36.66 a year (or about $3 per month). Now I am also going to throw in full use of the Undercroft along with full use of these forums, call it a bundle deal if you will. The Undercroft should be open again within the next week or so. Along with the undercroft, I will be adding a slew of new features to the forum and one of them is the arcade coming back (should be ready by tomorrow).

Regardless of the price, I feel that these two "applications" are well worth the $3 a month. The cost of my time alone making sure everything stays functional and adding new features constantly is way more than $3 a month per person, but that is not the point. The value you find in these services is going to vary from person to person ... but you will only find the same amount of value that you put into it. As with anything in life You get out of it what you put into it.

With all due respect, I was kidding about the porn. I really do need to start adding LOL to my post, don't I? Smiles just are not enough.

There are two kinds of people in the world.

There are the people who are willing to pay for what they get, and there are the people who live in a fantasy world in which they think "the best things in life are free."

The worst things in life are free such as death, disease, pain, and annoying human scum.

This board is "Where the elite come to play."

Now all of those parasites who proclaim their God-like superiority but cannot pay their monthly rent will run like the wind away from the subscriber-only portions of this marvelous message board.

To them I say GOOD RIDDANCE!

To Magister Ventrue I say, "Three cheers to you, sir!"


At last real-world stratification reaches the Devil's playing board, Letters to the Devil.

This was long overdue.

Well done!

Better late than never!

It depends. Some people I have run into fit that description, others, not so much. Guess it is hit or miss.




Depends on who we are talking about. I value some peoples wisdom higher then others.



I'd rather invest in a book. I don't know, maybe "Best of Letters to the Devil" (Note the grin? That means this line is in jest. Although a book with the essays from this site would be sweet!)

I never said LTTD wasn't worth money, I do believe my previous post here said I wouldn't mind it, as I was on the fence about it.

*looks at last page*



Oh look, I DID say that.


Anyways, $66 dollars for anything short of material goods makes me cringe.

I do support the Magisters endeavors, and give him credit for his hard work and making it run all these years. I'm not trying to take away from that.

$36.66 for a year is a better value then X-box live though, I'll give him that.

This was also my initial thoughts.

When I first joined this forum I was surprised that it was free, things like this just shouldn't be.

So, I have NO problem with this.

If there is any fee involved for CoS Members or not, I support Magister Ventrue and all that he does.

I'm in for the long haul. I will be happy to pay a fee if necessary.

Miss Mina 1556

If you shop at porn sites that cheap I'd rather not see your collection

But seriously.

Even though I've only got access to the upstairs part of the site I've yet to find anywhere else on the net that provided both input from people of intelligence and dealt swiftly with shit-disturbers. So, since you provide a valuable service I see nothing wrong in charging for it.

I second what others have posted already that LttD is the need-to have part, while The Undercroft to me at least falls more in the nice-to-have category.

Exactly.
The truth of the matter is, this forum has NEVER been "free". Someone has been paying for it.
On a pay site you get a pop-up free experience. You get a reasonable expectation that the site will be around for a while, thus making it worth your while to invest in it.

Most importantly, you have a sense of ownership. In this context, this does not mean that one owns the site...but one has a vested interest in it, and this leads to a greater sense of responsibility. Paying up causes one to want to do their part in making it of value. Give a man a house and he will trash it. Make him pay out the keister, and he'll bend over backwards to improve it.

Maybe new members get the first month for free, then after that they must pay to renew. However - I don't know if there's any way to see whether the same computer (ie person) keeps creating new accounts to keep getting their free first month...



Good idea.

After seeing some moron recently get banned from this site, this thought came to mind.

If people are going to have to pay a subscription to this forum, any idiot who gets banned will now leave something behind other than their stupid posts. They will have contributed to keeping LttD up and running for those of us who appreciate it and know how to properly interact with others.

So, they basically have paid for the opportunity to get up on stage and make an ass of themselves. They then get shown to the door, and like the rubes they are, their money gets taken from them. Sounds rather Satanic to me!

I would agree if the monthly rate were to be significantly higher.

Perhaps there could be a month-to-month option for new members, maybe the first 3 months so they can get the feel for if this is for them or not. Those that get something out of being here and contribute themselves will stick around. The shit disturbers/most recent round of anti-christs will either not cough up the cash initially or think they're not getting enough bang for their buck and leave.

Everyone here is using a service and should pay for it if that is the desire of the facilitator of the service. Magister Ventrue said that it's going to be around $3 (again, very generous of him), which is a reasonable amount to take a gamble with sight unseen.

$3 a month is:
* Less expensive than a magazine subscription, as was pointed out by Roho.
* About the equivalent of renting 1 older movie a month.
* The cost of a Peppermint Mocha Twist (my current favorite Starbucks offering).
* Three items of who-knows-what from the dollar store (oh wait, the dollar store is even charging more than $1 for most items these days ...)

And well you know...you WERE looking for my name too..come on, don't deny it.

More seriously though, I was looking for the Unholy trinity of this message board: Magistra Nadramia, Magister Nemo, and Magister Svengali.

Yet I know from Magister Sass's book ESSAYS IN SATANISM where his vote would go.

*Hint* Read the acknowledgements page.

In which case a fee will give you a better chance of hitting than missing!



That is just it. The material on this website IS good enough to be put into a book. In fact some of it already has been put into a book.

By the way, if no one if laughing at your jokes consider that it isn't because no one gets them rather they just aren't funny.

I'm with Daark. I'll pay that just to get rid of you.

Smiley faces, lol, none of it makes up for your complete lack of respect.

You don't like the idea of subscriptions? Fine. Your first option would be to listen to your mother's advice when she told you "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." If, because you are so self-important you feel the rest of us simply cannot get by without your input, you can't shut your yap, allow me show you how a Satanist, which by definition should mean a person with manners and other lesser magic skills would do it:

I'm not a fan of subscriptions, and as much as I enjoy this forum I doubt I would continue were a subscription required. This is no reflection on the forum, but more an issue of personal choice.

Wow.

You wouldn't even have broken a sweat.

Now, if only I could come up with a classy, etiquette appropriate way to call you an asshole............

Y~

I did!

Did a few calculations myself to put things into perspective - the amount that the Danish peoples church would have taxed me this year had I not left it a while back, would have been enough for me to both join CoS and take out a 10 year subscription for LttD.

The mandatory tax on television sets that provides for our public service TV would get me another 10 years for what I'm charged in a year.

Given that I spend more time here than in either of the other two places I think $3 is a fair price.

To prove a point:

After reading my previous post, a Satanic Magister, a true gentleman, went out of his way to assist me.



Never leaving a lady hanging with a dilemma, he gave me the ability to say this:

You, Sir, Mr. Cyprian Latakia , are an Obturator Foramen.

and that didn't cost me a dime.

Y~

When are you going to make the payment information available, if you already did and I missed, I appologize. I'm assuming that Paypal will be an option, I'm hoping that there will be a mail-in (money-order) option available also. I think your fee is more than fair, and would be more than happy to contribute ASAP.

It's amazing the sense of entitlement that some have towards what others have supplied them. You see it everyday. When someone is asked to be responsible for themselves, whether it be financial or otherwise, they become defensive and not the slightest bit embarrassed that someone else has been carrying them and their responsibility.

Time to trim out a bit of the dead wood!

Yeah,if anyone bothered to do the research,you would see prior to my joking around, that I did indeed post in a nice manner and it is on page 3.




I do believe I did EXACTLY what you said, and was nice about, did I not?


Its amazing how my first post in this thread no one bothers to read, instead they see misinterpret my, albeit lame jokes, as me just being general assholery.

The humor may have been lost on everyone but me, but the fact still remains, funny or not, you can see that before hand I was:

1. I was extremely polite,saying I am not against subscriptions and was indeed on the fence about it.

2. I acknowledged the Magisters years of hard work to
Satanism.

3.I have said these forums are an important resource.


Now if the person I replied to feels I wronged him in my lame ass attempt at humor, let him PM me and I will be glad to discuss it with him, apologize and do what I can to rectify the situation.

This is the second time that I feel you have been rude to me though, might be the first. Is it the fact my name tag isn't orange? I though, don't want an apology. Since you're a Magistra, apologizing to any non COS member, I'm sure, would be beneath you anyways.

I'm just going to pretend this didn't happen and move on from the thread.

Thank you mam, for your opinion of me, even if it was unsolicited.



P.S. As you can see, I am a very polite and respectful person. "Momma didn't raise no fools"

Here is the payment break down as I have it now. I am still working a few bugs out of the system currently. Sadly with all the different access levels everyone has here, it makes planning this more difficult than just Free Member / Paid Member .....


-- Monthly Paid Subscription (Recurring) - $6.66
--------------------------------------------------
Select this subscription if you would like to pay monthly. You will be billed each month for membership, which you can cancel at anytime. This option is best for those who would like to "try" the system out without committing to a long term subscription.

-- Monthly Paid Subscription (Recurring) - $36.66
--------------------------------------------------
Yearly Access to all forums and Yearly Full Access to Satannet's Undercroft Social Network. This payment structure will auto-renew every year.

-- Lifetime Paid Subscription (One Time) - $196.66
--------------------------------------------------
This is a one time paid lifetime membership which gives you full access to Letter to the Devil and Full Access to Satannet's Undercroft Social Network for the life of the systems.

Payment will be available via Paypal and check/money order on both LttD and the Undercroft (Pay at one or the other, not both).

If you pay on LttD and want access to the Undercroft you will need to contact me with your username for there. If you pay on the Undercroft and want access to LttD you will need to contact me with your username on LttD. Sadly the payment systems are not tied together, but I wanted to give the option to sign up on either system since some people will only be using one or the other, not both (though I think most people will use both systems).

If you have any questions please let me know!

I like the plan options, I really do. Ok, not so much option 3, but I can live with one and two.

What if someone decides not to renew one year though? Does their account get removed? If they decide to come back later on will they have to make a new account or will the old one still be an option for them to have?

If a subscription runs out (does not get renewed) the account will be "downgraded" to the "non-paid" level. The account will not be deleted or modified in any other way. That account will still have access to all the free features available to free accounts. At that point the user can choose to resubscribe again if they like at a later point.

That sounds great, thank you!

Magister,

A lifetime subscription only offers savings after more than five years. I understand you're in it for the long haul, but what guarantees can you offer regarding money paid in, if something unforeseen happens to the site before that?

Well, if the systems go down within the 5 years, then I will refund the remaining time back to the user. Though considering the track record of LttD, that is extremely unlikely. This board has been running in one form or another for about 15 years now, I do not know of any other system on the net that has been running for that long.

The "Savings" on the lifetime plan is for people who expect to also be in this for the long haul, like the users who have been on LttD for more than a few years now.

Magister,

Thank You for providing the Payment Option information, I take it you will be adding a thread/link somewhere with the mailing information for those of us who will be mailing in our Membership Fee. Sorry, I'm sure you are probably swamped right now, I don't mean to be a bug.

Understood! Thank you Magister. You can count on my subscription.

A solid and fair solution Magister!

And this is why you'll never be orange, because, strangely, you weren't completely wrong when you wrote your first post, and I was wrong to have not read it.



Being polite to another human being, warranted or otherwise, is never beneath me.

Neither is admitting when I am wrong.

So, without any BUTs attached, let me apologize for not reading your first post so that I would have understood the second.

You mention I have been rude to you twice, and at least once I recognize as mostly my fault. Moreover, you are handling my insult of you pretty damn well, and, truthfully, now have me on the defensive---good lesser magic skills.

I shall feel obligated to read more of your posts in the hope that there is some common ground that would negate this rough beginning--for both our sakes'.

Y~

I was hoping you would offer this.
Thank you.

Personally, I think this site would be more than worth the subscription price, and am frankly rather surprised it was not instated before I even got here.

If you need an extra hand with getting anything set up, or anything, I'd be more than happy to help. I completely understand the burden it can be on both time and money, so even if you don't need it, I'd like to put forth an offer to help where and how I can, if it's desired. Thank you for a wonderful service that has granted me irreplaceable real-world connections.

Hail LttD!

I had thought of the prospect that the LttD may shut down unexpectedly as well, making a lifetime subscription potentially a financial risk. I evaluated the risk and return on a lifetime subscription to LttD as I do with other investments, I weighed the soundness of the company and my confidence in its leadership.

Furthermore, even if LttD was to cease operating (very remote possibility as Magister Ventrue has mentioned, it has been on-going for around 15 years), I would consider the lifetime subscription fee my act of tendering for services rendered over all these years. Now that Magister Ventrue has mentioned a provision to refund the prorated balance in the event LttD goes down within five years after the beginning of a lifetime subscription, I see no reason why a CoS member would not make the investment in this valuable resource through a lifetime subscription.

How long before the subscription fees will become active?

I can see the value long-term in a lifetime subscription and I can see the immediate (and warranted) value to Magister Ventrue to have up-front capital to make this happen. But on Year 6 (ironically), the site becomes an entitlement to lifetime members and Magister Ventrue is back to having a stack of members he is supporting with no visible means of support for himself. That is far better than its being free, though. It is a remarkable value, nonetheless.

I would have no problem with it. - 81 (82%)

I might do it - 10 (10%)

I will stop using the board if it happens. - 8 (08%)

Wouldn't the second option for voting have sufficed better for someone on the fence than a "No"?

Ok, you're really starting to beat a dead horse with this.

Let's just move on, shall we?

Okay Witch Bruja, you're right.

Moving on then.

Technically, everything is pretty much ready to go ... I am just working out the last few details and then it will be turned on!

Thank you Magistra, I look forward to putting this behind us and moving on.

I look forward to when all the new systems come online, when it does you shall have my full lifetime payment via paypal and I would assume large amounts of members would also be in for the long haul. I am thankful though that you installed the life-plan because this is easier for those of us who just want to pay it and then not have to worry about it anymore.

I will wait however until the Undercroft is online and the new features are in place before payment is made so less trouble is had when upgrading user's account.

Could you please however provide us with the benefits (besides contributing to this forum and yourself of course) of the different payment levels? (if their is one at all)

Yeah, I am definitely in for the long haul. I may have to do a single month first but will definitely lifetime it in January.

Excellent! Exactly what I was hoping for. I don't like recurring payments. I'd rather pay up front and be done with it.

Thanks Magister Ventrue!

I can see this board becoming much more refined with this measure in place.

Sounds good, Magister! You can count on receiving my payment by mail.

HS!

Excellent!

I am excited to see how things will turn out around here.

All the payment levels will receive the same benefits, the only difference is how you pay and the overall price. The Monthly being the most expensive (but also requires the most maintenance from me), the yearly being less per month than the monthly ... and the yearly technically saving you the most overall (as long as you are in it for the long haul, i.e. 5+ years).

Currently as it stands now I plan on adding some new features to LttD, the Arcade of course and eventually blogging along with a few other new things.

The largest change will be the Undercroft. The New undercroft will have Blogs, Groups, A forum (for Undercroft Help only), Classifieds, Articles, Instant Messaging between members, "Possible Chatrooms" (I have not fully decided on this yet), Video Upload, Music Upload, Photo Albums, Events Listing, A Reward Points System, User Polls, User Recommendations, and more ... The Undercroft is going to open pretty plain to start with new features being added every week.

All Subscription users will get full access to all features on both the Undercroft and LttD and full access to all new features with no additional charge. Also, you will be locked in on the subscription price so if it were to "raise" for some reason in the future, you will not have to worry about it!

Thank you!

My thoughts exactly, Warlock. I also agree with you on the point you made about the YEARS the Magister has provided LttD totally without charge.
As soon as he has the new server up and running and institutes the Subscription program, my Lifetime will be paid. (As long as he accepts PayPal, which I believe he said he will.)

HAIL VENTRUE!!

An option if you decide to do chat rooms and would like excellent security would be opening and registering a channel on an IRC server and embedding a Mibbit IRC client (Java based) that directly connects to that channel.

There was a chatroom here when I first signed up to use the board in 1999. I think I only signed into it once or twice, but from what I remember, it was full of flame wars and the like. I think a chatroom would require some heavy moderation.

If a chatroom shows up, it will be for Paid members only and it will be locally hosted and only accessible from the website ... IRC is the WORST place to have a chatroom, far too easy to take the channel over. I have a chat program that I use on my other social network sites and it works perfectly!

Again, I am still deciding on this feature.

Very well. There are measures that can avoid a takeover, but if you have something that works as you'd want it to, embedding anything else would just cause unnecessary hassle.

That's a given, which is a strong con of having one for the Church of Satan, seeing as Christians throw enough flak at it as is.

Personally, I'm against having one, but if there's going to be one, it's good to weigh your options. I wasn't aware until reading his reply here that he already had a secure solution that operates as he desires, so that pretty much settles that.

Either way, I'm looking forward to the changes.

Magister,

I plan to pay the lifetime Membership Fee, I greatly enjoy the Company, Conversation, Topics, and of course the high-level of intellect from like-minded people. I'm not currently a CoS member, that may change in the immediate future, it may not. I guess what I really want to know is; does "full access" to LTTD mean that I will be able to interact in the Forums that I currently do not have access to? Either way, I'm still in, it would be a privelage though, to be able to play in the Basement.

I am glad to read that instant messaging (IM) and chat rooms may be part of Undercroft in the future. One of the options I enjoyed about Undercroft was being able to search for users based on a number of search criteria, e.g. location, sexual orientation, relationship status, or other interests; it allowed me to make contact with CoS members of similar interests I may never have known about through the forums of LttD alone.

A concern was raised about shit disturbers if a real-time communication option like IM and chat rooms were initiated. The ability to ignore shit disturbers may be an easy solution. One feature that may enhance the shit disturber filtering process is being able to discern who is a CoS member on Undercroft and who is not; a feature that I do not remember being available previously. An option to prevent IM's from all non-members would be a good start. The IM feature would allow the opportunity to build new friendships with CoS members and strengthen current ones more efficiently.

The only question I have is when do you want the money and where do we send the check?

Well I guess I need to explain the details of this a little more clearly, as I do not believe I defined this yet.

"Full Access" means two things actually. First, if you are NOT a CoS Member but are a subscriber, Full Access means you will be able to see all the forums you see now plus the new forums I am creating for Non-CoS Members. All non-subscribers will see a very limited amount of forums.

If you are a CoS Member and a subscriber, you will have access to all the subscriber forums plus the CoS Member forums. If you are a CoS Member but not a subscriber, you will have the same access a Non-subscriber has.

The undercroft is a little different.... Subscribers will get full access to the undercroft and all its features, currently there will be no difference in features between Non-CoS Members and CoS Members who are subscribers (except a Badge on their profile). There will however be a huge difference between non-subscribers and subscribers when it comes to features on the undercroft but that is all explained on the undercroft when I open it tonight.

So I hope that explains it a little better

I voted "Yes" awhile ago, though I haven't had time to chime in.

Simply, yes. Though I sincerely doubt it will weed out TOO much of the riff-raff, if they are going to come in and take, it should be better off that they leave a gift behind them on their way out the door.

Also, as Magister Nemo said, the worst things in life are free. I knew a guy who accepted a half eaten box of pizza from a pizzeria downtown. He was violently ill and hospitalized. That was free, and it sucked.

I have payed for things in the past that I wasn't happy about, but hey, I have had an extended trial period of over a year here, and like what I see. It's only right that this place tears a couple of bills out of my shriveled, twisted, over-used typing claw.

Thank You for the clarification Magister!

Ah, and that is the question! Guess what? The doors will be open here shortly ... Tonight!

What new forums might be added Magister?

haha it may also inspire them to get off their asses and get jobs!

I doubt it. Society could only be so lucky.

Subscribed as Warlock Bloodfire.

Going monthly for now and yearly next year.

Greetings Magister,

I have subscribed with the Lifetime option, my user name on Undercroft is the same as here: BlasphemousOne

Magister Ventrue,

Once payment has been sent, how long will it take before seeing the subscription type one paid for, etc. both here and on Undercroft?

Thanks!

I have all the accounts updated currently. On the Undercroft it will show up with a VIP Badge. I am still putting in the code for LttD but it will be displayed on your profile and under your Avatar.