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#367286 - 01/04/09 12:48 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Good point, and YES We do.

I do.

I am quite picky too. I however, do not give anyone any credit unless I see fit.

You're born. So what.

You're born so you deserve what everyone else has.

The criminal mind thinks this way.

Someone has money......more than I have, so I deserve it.

Communist think along these lines.
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#367287 - 01/04/09 12:51 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Evil_Eve]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> You're born so you deserve what everyone else has. <<

"Every man is born equal. And then they get dressed."

As it was once said.
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#367393 - 01/05/09 05:17 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Ygraine]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 48
Loc: MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ygraine

When the legislature produces a law granting everyone health care THEN I can get pissy about the lady dying on the floor.

We have such laws here up north, had them for decades. They don't do much better in practice. And in some cases . . .

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080924.whomeless0924/BNStory/National

. . . embarassingly worse.

Originally Posted By: Ygraine

I disagree with those who feel the woman should have been left to die, and disagree equally with those who feel that by virtue of existence one deserves to exist.


I will agree with that sentiment on the grounds that the womans death was due to incompitence on the part of the staff of the ~place of business~ she had chosen to enter.

And as pointed out elsewhere in this thread (I belive); the womans worth as a creature was not, and at this point is not, assessable.

Prehaps she was a welfare crazy yelling at 40 imaginary cats in a small apartment, prehaps she was a well educated and productive professional suffering a progressivly degenerative psychological melt down.

Prehaps her death was the lifting of a social burden, prehaps it was a handicapping to society.

In any case I havn't found anything to suggest either.

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#367396 - 01/05/09 05:30 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> In any case I havn't found anything to suggest either.<<

She was mentally ill. And hadn't managed to obtain for herself the means to afford proper medical care.

Nature decides.
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#367400 - 01/05/09 08:10 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 48
Loc: MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley

She was mentally ill. And hadn't managed to obtain for herself the means to afford proper medical care.

Nature decides.


Touche.

A little further research does in fact indicate she did not have health insurance, or for that matter a valid green card.

But if you could extrapolate your point slightly please:
Is it your position that the woman in questions worth is rendered null becuase of her mental condition, or becuase of her lack of actions to provide herself with access to a better tier of treatment for her mental condition?

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#367401 - 01/05/09 08:29 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> Is it your position that the woman in questions worth is rendered null becuase of her mental condition, or becuase of her lack of actions to provide herself with access to a better tier of treatment for her mental condition? <<

Nature has rendered her null, yes. So in effect, both of the above. The fact that she hadn't provided for herself, or that she was mentally ill, are two sides of the same coin.

It's simply survival of the fitest.

The fact that you and I are both here and surviving well right now is demonstrative of the fact that we are products of good strong genetics through our ancestry. Our genes have presided over other more inferior stock through the previous generations.

However, nature weeds out the weak links in the chain along the way. You or I may be weeded out at some point. Though it is exremely unlikely that we will end up in a dire position such as this woman's.

We may well look after less fortunate members of our families or loved ones for as long as we are around to ensure their survival, but ultimately nature will take its course, just as at some point when the lioness will have to leave her cubs to fend for themselves - not all of them will survive.

Some people are born defective. It is only in human society that we have developed a penchant for protecting the faulty members of the species. The rest of the animal kingdom, of course, kills off its weak. I believe it's called natural selection.

And sometimes, people are simply unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's not people that are intrinsically cruel. It's just nature that is so.
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#367403 - 01/05/09 09:08 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I've worked in ERs with psychiatric wings as an coordinator, and as an administrator in mental health clinics.

It is unfortunate that she was left there, but it's not that uncommon, and not intentional cruelty. It was negligent, perhaps, but I can say that someone passing by a waiting room, knowing someone could have been waiting for several hours, will often see people sleeping on the floor. The very fact that they are IN the waiting room is because they do not have an available bed.

As for her letting herself get to that position, I agree that she would have fared far better had she taken her illness into her own hands at the onset, but the reality is it can be devastating not having control over your mind, and even more so if your family abandons you.

I am not trying to shift responsibility on the state, or her family, or the health care professionals, just a reality about mental illness.

The truth is even a person who has family support, is aware of their illness, and manages it well most of the time, can still succumb to a random act of neglect when they are incapacitated.

And that's what scares people the most, I think, the sheer randomness of circumstance and death.

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#367412 - 01/05/09 10:32 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Zaftig]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Quote:
And that's what scares people the most, I think, the sheer randomness of circumstance and death.


I completely agree with you. There are obviously plenty of things that an intelligent individual can do to avoid a situation such as this, but things do happen.

Nor is this an isolated case. There was a very similar case in California, where a woman who HAD health insurance AND a caring family surrounding her died in an emergency waiting room, despite the pleas of her family for the staff to recognize that she was a critical case. It was a case of neglect, plain and simple. She didn't appear as sick as she was, and she was pushed aside. It happens.

"Good, they get what they deserve" was not the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that initial article. I did, however, contemplate how it's a terribly shitty and sad way to die. For me,it's not like hearing of a junkie overdosing or a criminal being killed or executed. More than anything I truly hoped that, as Zaftig stated, circumstance doesn't ever put me or any of my loved ones in a situation such as that.


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#367413 - 01/05/09 10:39 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>>
The fact that you and I are both here and surviving well right now is demonstrative of the fact that we are products of good strong genetics through our ancestry. Our genes have presided over other more inferior stock through the previous generations.


Genes aren't the only players here, though. There are two others: luck and character.

Even good genes, for example, can become mutated or can be encoded improperly during the replication process.

And, even a person with good genes can, say, get killed in some unfortunate accident, or die of some nasty disease.

And, even a person with good genes can be driven to the brink of despair or madness if they end up in the wrong kind of environment. There are plenty of mental illnesses--some with genetic components, and others seemingly without--that are triggered primarily by stress or trauma.

From there, various health issues actually aren't genetic, or are only partly so.

Then, there's character, and the actions that flow from it. A person with good genes may not know how to fully exploit that gift. A good genetic specimen can still be a shit-for-brains. Good genes don't automatically grant a person creativity, tenacity, wisdom, street smarts, or any number of other qualities that often have to be tempered and developed in life.

Likewise, people with shitty genes can possess qualities that allow and inspire them to rise above all that. Such people have shown that you can still keep playing cards--and maybe even win--even if you initially get dealt a bad hand.

If you judge folks purely by their genetic codes, you end up tossing out a lot of real gems, and keeping a lot of people who are little more than junk. Not even Nature judges organisms purely by their genes, because natural selection sometimes spares those freaks and geeks who are nonetheless exceptionally cunning, lucky, or skilled, and whacks those who happen to be standing under a rotting tree at the wrong time.

Originally Posted By: Bruja


I completely agree with you. There are obviously plenty of things that an intelligent individual can do to avoid a situation such as this, but things do happen.



Precisely.

Which is why it's not just folly to take an interest or to feel uneasy when something like this happens. You can do everything right on your end, and then, some professional or authority figure can act stupidly or negligently, and you may not be able to do a whole lot about it at the time.

Whether we like it or not, there are moments and there are ways in which we are ALL supremely vulnerable.

Loonies and homeless people are one thing, but I don't think anybody here is just content to let natural selection or bad safety nets have their way with THEM. I'm certainly not.

Now, if this women had dropped dead in her filthy hovel, that'd be one thing. Then, it'd be all on her and hers. But, patients dropping dead in hospitals--even shitty ones--is rather like people getting mugged inside of police stations. It's disconcerting.
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#367419 - 01/05/09 11:18 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> Even good genes, for example, can become mutated or can be encoded improperly during the replication process. <<

Which is part of the genetic process in itself.

>> And, even a person with good genes can, say, get killed in some unfortunate accident, or die of some nasty disease. <<

That is what I said. You can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Although contracting a nasty disease is also dependent on genes. Again, the strongest survive.

The issue here isn't "luck" but natural selection - which can seem cruel in the sense that it can be indiscriminate.

But.. and it's a big but... many of these people only survive for as long as there is a support system around them. Always at the expense of others. This is a condition unique to the human species.

And it's unique only because religious influences have engendered an egalitarian society.

As I have continually pointed out in this thread... the lesson from a Satanic perspective is to identify the illusions society stands upon. First and foremost be aware that this could happen to you if you let it.

There are no safety nets. Our destiny is in our own hands. And that is a tall order for many people because most people have become subservient to corporations and governmental institutions.

An by the way, intelligence and character comes down to brain chemistry. Which is also genetic.

Unless we are about to start suggesting we have some kind of seperate soul, which I am not, then who we are is defined by our genes.

How we react to external ramifications and stimuli is also dependent on genetic coding in our chemistry.
_________________________
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www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367426 - 01/05/09 12:13 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
"Genes aren't the only players here, though. There are two others: luck and character."

It's questionable where genes end and character begins, and whether character is entirely based on genes. Regarding luck, though, I completely agree. Luck is a big player in nature. Survival of the luckiest might be as true as survival of the fittest, in the human world more than in the animal world.

The truth is that the world is not perfect, life is not fair, cliche, I know.
I am not however defending the weak complaining that they should be cared for and protected. I don't care too much.
It is the strong and talented that I lament most. And there are such situations where the talented and capable perish in the process, fall through the cracks. Through no fault of their own, but ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time (yes, perhaps, as a result of their own choices, but no one can foresee everything) they do not make it.
One person who was one of the most talented people I knew did not get where he should have gotten (to the top) through sheer bad luck and bad circumstances. He was scum, and I regret his talents being lost more than him destroying his life.
I can guarantee that it is not an isolated case. So many times the ones who are at the top are not truly the best in terms of skill and talent. It can happen that the best fall through the cracks with no one knowing of it.

I don't know if all get what they deserve. It is too complicated to analyze. If we see nature as a perfect system that's helping the strong prosper and rooting out the weak, then probably it can be said that we all get what we deserve. However, human societies are more complicated than that. Luck and circumstances cannot be disregarded.

"Likewise, people with shitty genes can possess qualities that allow and inspire them to rise above all that. Such people have shown that you can still keep playing cards--and maybe even win--even if you initially get dealt a bad hand."

I completely agree. I must say that some things, qualities, are not entirely accounted for by genes. Something like free will, maybe? But that is a whole other discussion.

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#367431 - 01/05/09 12:33 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I'm late as usual. And I no doubt will repeat what has already been said. But I am struck by the fact that pretty much any ideal I may hold, someone else will dismiss. As sad as it may seem, not everyone will agree with how I view others, treat others or value others. Tough cookies.

One thing, I think, every Satanist can agree on, it is that we are all responsible for oursleves, in toto. We each may choose to move the fence to include loved ones, parents, children, whatever...but, in the end, we are responsible for ourselves. I am constantly telling my son that I am not responsible for making him happy. My job is to raise him. The same for my wife. And the same for this woman.

If I wake up tomorrow, mentally ill, it will be my responsibility to see that I get the medical treatment I need. If you see me face down somewhere, it would be nice if you helped me up...but it wouldn't be your responsibilty.

Would I help someone whe seemed neglected? Depending on the circumstances, probably. But ultimately, we are responsible for our own welfare.
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#367446 - 01/05/09 03:06 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
But.. and it's a big but... many of these people only survive for as long as there is a support system around them. Always at the expense of others. This is a condition unique to the human species.

And it's unique only because religious influences have engendered an egalitarian society.


Perhaps religion tends to intensify bonds between people, and promote and encourage even greater dependence, but bottom line, human beings are social animals--as most primates are (because, indeed, many mammals are).

If you look at, say, wolves, only very rarely do you encounter a "lone wolf," and such wolves lead very difficult, and often short, lives, because it takes an entire pack to bring down the good game, and to fend off various kinds of threats.

Similarly, only very rarely do you see a human being who is fully happy and completely successful being off by themselves, sans connections, and sans society. It usually takes a lot of work, grit, and commitment to be 100% self-sufficient and wholly autonomous.

If you use technology, services, or goods that you didn't create yourself, you're relying on and putting some faith in an external human system of one sort or another.

Certainly, most of us probably go to the hospital at least once in a while, or at least, we have friends and family who do. And certainly, our own taxes and insurance premiums go up when somebody else files a malpractice suit, can't pay a hospital bill, or causes problems for other people or bureaucracies because they refused to get help for some medical or psychological issue. So, it's hard to escape, and so it's not out of the question to at least have some standards or preferences when it comes to how the system functions.

Quote:
An by the way, intelligence and character comes down to brain chemistry. Which is also genetic.


But, how genes activate and interact also depends on environment. What a person learns or experiences influences which traits manifest themselves, and how they get used.

Genes are basically If-Then switches. If this condition, then this output or response. Because there are numerous potential conditions, and they all cascade and interact in different patterns and relationships, you end up with range of options that is still ultimately fixed and finite, but nonetheless incredibly broad.

Certainly, even someone whose genes have put them in the running for a genius IQ won't ever meet even a third of their potential if you lock them on a dark, empty room from age two on.


Edited by TrojZyr (01/06/09 12:25 AM)
Edit Reason: blah blah blah
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367450 - 01/05/09 03:51 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> Perhaps religion tends to intensify bonds between people, and promote and encourage even greater dependence, but bottom line, human beings are social animals--as most primates are (because, indeed, many mammals are).

If you look at, say, wolves, only very rarely do you encounter a "lone wolf," and such wolves lead very difficult, and often short, lives, because it takes an entire pack to bring down the good game, and to fend off various kinds of threats.<<


You don't see lone wolves because, as I already said, animals kill off the weak amongst them.


>> Similarly, only very rarely do you see a human being who is fully happy and completely successful being off by themselves, sans connections, and sans society. It usually takes a lot of work, grit, and commitment to be 100% self-sufficient and wholly autonomous<<

Successful human beings keep others dependent on them - not the other way round. They use and implement the sevices of others.

We would call it lesser magic.

As Magister Svengali once pointed out, great minds do not think alike. Great minds think differently.

You are missing the essence of it entirely. But I'm not sifting through your whole post.


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#367454 - 01/05/09 04:16 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
Our destiny is in our own hands.





This is where luck plays out IMO. Our destiny can be set on a path by our own hands, but its in the hands of others as well. Muggers, Snipers, Rapists, Pedophiles, or anyone that can kill or traumatize with absolutely no provocation. If it is not in your will for any of these things to happen to you, yet they do, then obviously your destiny was not in your own hands. Any Satanist wants to live more than anything, ie vital existence! So how is our destiny not in the hands of others when they take the lives that we hold above all else, and struggle to maintain the highest quality of said life?

I'm trying to understand your point of view rev, I truly am.

I think what you are saying is that "people die, its only natural, how or why is inconsequential." Am I correct in this assumption?

If so, do you feel it is natural-selection when someone dies as result of murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc?

And again I'm not trying to be cross, i'm just trying to see things from where you stand, so I can understand it better. And I don't think you cold for your comments, not brutally so anyhow. People die everyday. I've seen much much worse ways to die on the site in my signature. I just think it was truly sad and an injustice that she died this way. It is as you said though, proof that these systems (or safety-nets) are flawed, and that one should want the best, but expect the worst out of these systems.
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