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#366972 - 01/02/09 11:26 AM Cruel People
Charlie R Offline


Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 64
Most shocking stories 2008

I'm mainly focusing on the woman who didn't get any attention at all in a psychiatric ward emergency room while waiting for nearly a day. She died after an hour but I can't believe no one noticed her at all. How can you not noticed a person laying faced down on the ground unconscious?! I found this very frustrating and it made me angry. As well as some of the other stories.

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#366974 - 01/02/09 11:42 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> Emergency Room Apathy: Esmin Green had been waiting nearly 24 hours in a New York psychiatric ward emergency room on June 19 when she fell face down onto the floor. As captured on a surveillance video that shocked the nation, hospital staff and other patients took a look at her but did nothing for an hour. Green died. <<

>> I'm mainly focusing on the woman who didn't get any attention at all in a psychiatric ward emergency room while waiting for nearly a day. She died after an hour but I can't believe no one noticed her at all. How can you not noticed a person laying faced down on the ground unconscious?! I found this very frustrating and it made me angry. <<

Did you know the woman?

It is quite surprising that this would happen in this manner in a hospital where none of the staff intervened.

But as surprising as it might be...

Some people are simply dispensable. That's just natural stratification. Personally, I see no reason to believe this woman had much to offer the world.

It's probably happened for the best. Or at least, with no actual negative impact on society. And with her demise the tax payer has saved a few pennies into the bargain.


_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#366980 - 01/02/09 12:38 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>>
Did you know the woman?


Don't need to. Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care and not just looked over and left to die. I hope someone pays you the same respect someday rev.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#366983 - 01/02/09 12:41 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Originally Posted By: hester moffet



Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care and not just looked over and left to die.


According to whom and what?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#366984 - 01/02/09 12:43 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care <<

In an egalitarian society that may be the general allusion to principles.

However, reality is something quite different.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#366986 - 01/02/09 12:48 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Why doesn't everyone deserve health care? Okay granted if you are a tax-payer sucking parasite who does nothing more than walk from your crackhouse to your mailbox to pick up your check (and you call that work), then I am in agreement, that individual does not deserve healthcare.

But just because this woman is crazy doesn't mean these healthcare workers had the right to let her sit there and die. Imagine how you would feel if you were in a bad car accident, bleeding out, and several ambulances and police just drove by and practically gave you the finger.

Responisbility to the Responsible. Those people had a responisbility to give that person health care. We can't just pick and choose, who we are going to at least try to save, and when.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#366988 - 01/02/09 12:55 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8876
If Reverend Bickely ever allowed his life to get to a point where his only option for getting help for a complete psychotic break, is sitting in the emergency room of a public hospital for poor people with a KNOWN HORRIBLE track record, I am pretty sure he'd agree he'd earned whatever happened to him.

Never known the chap to whine about anything that happened as a result of his choices.

But anyway, that's about as likely to happen as Svengali becoming a greeter at WalMart.

crossbones
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

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#366992 - 01/02/09 12:57 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269

Your statement was: "Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care". Not "This woman deserved better consideration."

I am not disputing that the hospital may (We don't have all the details) have acted irresponsibly. Leaping from that to everyone deserves health care, however doesn't make sense.

Rev. Bickley pointed out the fallacy of your emotionally charged statement in his reply.

The argument "How would you feel..." or "How would you like it if..." is irrelevant to the discussion. The facts are what they are. Egalitarianism is not Satanic. Life and nature are harsh.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#366993 - 01/02/09 01:02 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Quaark]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> If Reverend Bickely ever allowed his life to get to a point where his only option for getting help for a complete psychotic break, is sitting in the emergency room of a public hospital for poor people with a KNOWN HORRIBLE track record, I am pretty sure he'd agree he'd earned whatever happened to him.<<

Tou(fucking)che! grin

I was about to say, if I end up in a place like that they are welcome to leave me dying!

And to Hester Muppet's other question:

"Why doesn't everyone deserve health care?"

I won't even dignify that with an answer.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#366998 - 01/02/09 01:23 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Cynicist Offline


Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 4
It's a big step to assume that this neglected person was not a contributing member of our society. However, if this not is the case, then she should not have died. One of the major benefits of citizenship an American can expect is to have the services of a Hospital if needed. The problem with the previous statement in this day and age is that there are those who think they are entitled to something just because they were born here. Not everyone deserves health care; but all who deserve it should have access to it.
_________________________
Nazis are just morons who like to play dress-up



"...died beholden to nothin’ and nobody".

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#366999 - 01/02/09 01:30 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Cynicist]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> It's a big step to assume that this neglected person was not a contributing member of our society.<<

She wouldn't have been in the place had she pulled herself up by her own bootstraps.

Water seeks its own level. And this is the bottom of the sludge-pool.

Reality is harsh.

Satanism doesn't view life as most people would like it to be. It sees life as it is.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367001 - 01/02/09 01:40 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
ConquerOrPerish Offline


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 228
Loc: DC Metro Area
Originally Posted By: hester moffet
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>>
Did you know the woman?


Don't need to. Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care and not just looked over and left to die. I hope someone pays you the same respect someday rev.


There's no such thing as "equal opportunity".
_________________________
"I, even I, am my own redeemer". -Ragnar Redbeard

"Making a difference makes sense only if you are convinced that you have mastered the subject at hand to the point where any difference you might make would be for the better." -Thomas Sowell


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#367002 - 01/02/09 02:08 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ConquerOrPerish]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
That, what happened in hospital, was exemplar of total weakness and total ignorance. Such exemplars are happening around whole world on daily basis.
From humanity hardly could be expected something different.
So, there is too much talk about one dead woman. Can we step to another one? wink

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#367003 - 01/02/09 02:12 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Cynicist Offline


Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 4

Respectfully, just because a person is poor does not mean they are scum. Those who do not help themselves are; but there are those that cannot, or who are trying to become something better but still must resort to free clinics. Depending on handouts is abhorrent but taking advantage of those who offer assistance can be cunning and beneficial.
_________________________
Nazis are just morons who like to play dress-up



"...died beholden to nothin’ and nobody".

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#367004 - 01/02/09 02:14 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#367005 - 01/02/09 02:15 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Spelled Moon]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> That, what happened in hospital, was exemplar of total weakness and total ignorance. Such exemplars are happening around whole world on daily basis. <<

Dead right, Slovakian one.

But never mind all that. Just look at you looking all so pretty pretty in your new avatar.
grin
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367007 - 01/02/09 02:21 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Gretchen Offline


Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 11
That is a prime example of the effects of the world's carrying capacity (or lack thereof). When one of my fish go belly-up, the others swim right around it, pecking at it for anything useful. I'm surprised nobody went through that woman's pockets for cash or credit cards.


Does the dead fish deserve better care? Well, that depends. If it's a molly, then it will show signs of deterioration a week in advance. If it's a gourami, it will belly-up within minutes of a chemical change. In essence, mollies aren't fancy, but hardy. Gouramis are beautiful, but delicate. This is an ugly world, and I'm sure hospital staff can't tell one species from another.


If she was hardy and neglected, population control. If she was beautiful and delicate, population control. If people were not desensitized (especially in the health care field), it would lead to a malfunctioning system of emotion, and error.


Best wishes to her family. Perhaps they will get themselves checked up to date with their physicians to be sure they do not meet the same fate.

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#367008 - 01/02/09 02:30 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
zodiac Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Virginia
Quote:
Responsibility to the Responsible. Those people had a responisbility to give that person health care. We can't just pick and choose, who we are going to at least try to save, and when.



Well perhaps the women should have been more RESPONSIBLE and sought help prior to a psychotic break. I mean from what we know I think the situation is clear. The woman would not have been in that situation if she had taken the opportunity to address the problem before it got to that point. Her lack of attention to this matter makes me question what kind of person she is. Do we really want people who cannot recognize they need help running around in society?


Sure, you may deserve something because you paid your taxes or whatever but nature is nature.
If a person was psychotic and could be rehabilitated then I could see the relevance of your point.
However if they are beyond help then what value to society do they possess? I think if it is the latter than nature did what it had to.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Zodiac

Nature does nothing uselessly.
Aristotle

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence,then is not an act,but a habit.
Aristotle











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#367014 - 01/02/09 02:43 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: zodiac]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> if they are beyond help then what value to society do they possess? I think if it is the latter than nature did what it had to. <<

Not to mention the fact she didn't have the means to secure herself proper health care and was relegated to seek help in a medical dive.

As I have stated this is natural stratification.

If Bill Gates and myself contracted exactly the same disease who would we expect has the better chance of survival?

Of course, Bill Gates would. Should I complain about that? No. And good luck to him.

But let me explain what is going on in this thread. It's fear. No one here can actually feel any real sympathy for an unknown low-life whose death is reported in the news.

But these incidents demonstrate that the safety nets people like to believe are there in society, in actuality, are self-sufficient delusions.

And that frightens them. So they cry out about rights.

There are no safety nets. The God you save may be yourself.

Have I seemed harsh in this thread? I shouldn't sound unecessarily so, because I'm imparting Satanic wisdom here.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367017 - 01/02/09 02:56 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8876
One of my favorite sayings come from a nuclear physicist with a naturally Darwinian bent.

"The only right anyone actually has, is the right to expect uninterrupted molecular cohesion. If suddenly deprived of this right, you have every right to complain quite bitterly."

wink
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

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#367018 - 01/02/09 03:02 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: zodiac]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 262
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
I live in the Los Angeles area, around here in the E.R., unless you are bleeding profusely or threatening suicide, you will be forced to wait your turn, in some cases that could be a four-hour wait. We have a service here called 911, it's been around a while you may have heard of it, it's for the situations in which waiting is not an option. In this area the Health Care industry has fallen to pieces due to many factors including the flood of Illegal or Non-Documented Immigrants, Drug Abuse and so on,as a result my expectations of the quality of service one might come into contact with in an Emergency Room of any kind would be below standard under any circumstance by default. Responsible people, legitimate contributors to the process don't just walk into Emergency Rooms and die face down on the floor. I wish we knew all of the details behind this, I will bet that there is a good chance that if we did, we wouldn't be bashing the Hospital staff, as Satanists we would have no issue with Reverand Bickley's first response. In all honesty the Reverand's first response made me throw my fist into the air, they were the words of a True Satanist!

PS-Zodiac, my response wasn't directed at you but at the thread in general!!


Edited by Descendant (01/02/09 05:10 PM)
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#367019 - 01/02/09 03:02 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
This has been taken completely out of context. I was merely under the delusion (as it seems to be) that these hospital workers have an obligation to take care of those that are in need of it. If there were no demand, there would be no supply. And if a hospital worker can descriminate on who it gives care to, then things could begin to look very bad for all of us.

Now let me correct myself by saying that everyone who is a productive member of society deserves a fighting chance at hospitilization and care.

I do not know if this woman was a productive member of society or not. It was a blanket statement, that a woman in a pyschiatric ward waited nearly a day for care, fell face down on the floor, and was walked over and left to die.

I seen injustice in that. I would guess that those on film could be sued in a legal system for their lack of action. I could be wrong (as has been proven in this thread).

To Witch S.Gardner, no I don't think anyone DESERVES to be a member. It is a personal choice, and should you want to be a member you should put up the money and not complain. I believe that you m'am, are making "mountains out of mole hills".

"Hester Muppet" +1 to you Mr. Bickley...I should have chosen my words more carefully.


Edited by hester moffet (01/02/09 05:35 PM)
Edit Reason: Gender Operation
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#367020 - 01/02/09 03:13 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
I just read a snippet from a book I think i'll buy that just reminded me of why I have two ears and only one mouth (because I should listen twice as much as I speak on some occasions)

"Over 200 billion red blood cells a day die in the interest of keeping you alive. Do you anguish over their demise? Like those red corpuscles, you and I are cells in a social superorganism whose maintenance and growth sometimes requires our pain or eliminatiion, suppresses our individuality, and restricts our freedom. Why then is it of any value to us?" -The Lucifer Principle - Howard Bloom
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#367021 - 01/02/09 03:46 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Gretchen Offline


Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 11
"When a human spends weeks or month in space, his heart no longer has to labor mightily, pumping blood upward in defiance of gravity's force. The heart shrinks dramatically as the cells no longer deem themselves of value scale down to an existence just one step removed from death. The individual is a cell in the superorganism. When he feels he is no longer necessary to the larger group, he too, begins to wither away.", Bloom, Howard. The Lucifer Principle, New York, NY: Atlantic Monthly Press, 1995


What is so great about this quote is that you have half of people that believe that the individual controls their own natural being, and the other half believing that we are one, complete mass of existence. In either light, the woman's time had come. The Satanist may view more of the intricate detailing inside of life, which is key to social and and natural survival. Someone that studies population and earth sciences might deem the latter as more acceptable.


Either way, I think the original post brought up some interesting points of view. I, myself, try to look at it from a little of both points of view. If survival of the fittest (or needed as apart of a whole) can be explained by both in different terms, then the concept of "cruel" does not fit into the equation.


I hope you pick up this book. I don't agree one hundred percent with everything it projects, but it certainly made me think more on the subject.

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#367022 - 01/02/09 03:49 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
This just serves to demonstrate that the only person one can rely upon is him or herself. Even medical practicioners, some of whom have sworn an oath to preserve life, can and will find better things to do with their time when something better presents itself. And, that really could have been anything.

Perhaps everyone was embroiled in a real medical crisis, like an emerging pandemic.

Perhaps everyone was busy talking about the latest college football game at the water cooler.

That is the nature of dealing in handouts and freebies. You get what is given to you, unlike the rich man that gets what he bought... rich being a relative term here.

The old saying goes, "Life's not fair." I disagree. Life is harsh and harsh is fair.
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#367023 - 01/02/09 03:52 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Originally Posted By: hester moffet
I believe that you sir, are making "mountains out of mole hills".


I didn't realize they gave the title "Witch" to "sirs".

whistle

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#367024 - 01/02/09 03:58 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
zodiac Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Virginia
Well said Reverend!
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Zodiac

Nature does nothing uselessly.
Aristotle

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence,then is not an act,but a habit.
Aristotle











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#367039 - 01/02/09 05:13 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 48
Loc: MB, Canada
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/triage/2008/07/esmin-greens-de.html

I fail to see this as an act of cruelty at all. As per the response in this article It seems it is simply an act of henious professional neglect on the part of the innitial nurse as well as the security staff.

In any case, cause of death was (according to a few site):

Quote:
thromboemboli--blood clots that traveled from her leg to her lung.
End qoute.

Thats Nature. Nature in and of itself is not cruel, as nature itself cannot act with malicious intent.

Reguardless of this womans mental state (or financial state or other traits implied) Nature caused the death,external incompitence simply was an added factor.

Why cry over Nature?

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#367040 - 01/02/09 05:18 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8876
Exactly!

I consider the main "crime" of the staff falsifying the records after the fact to avoid looking bad.

THAT is criminal.
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

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#367041 - 01/02/09 05:22 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
_Nophru_Ka_ Offline


Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1
I agree completely. You might as well bewail a rainstorm.

- Mike

Originally Posted By: Alleycat Devil
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/triage/2008/07/esmin-greens-de.html

Thats Nature. Nature in and of itself is not cruel, as nature itself cannot act with malicious intent.

Reguardless of this womans mental state (or financial state or other traits implied) Nature caused the death,external incompitence simply was an added factor.

Why cry over Nature?

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#367045 - 01/02/09 05:42 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Well now...that changes things entirely. This chick was screwed anyway. So what did everyone do for new years?
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#367049 - 01/02/09 06:00 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 48
Loc: MB, Canada
Massive indulgence in the fremented arts with close friends as well as open contimplation and observation of applied sarcasm and other such things that seldom translate well of course.

Yourself?

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#367050 - 01/02/09 06:09 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Ice Claw Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 151
I think you should have taken all that anger/hate and cleaned your house with it.

I mean really, I can scrub a mean floor when I am pissed off and that fucker comes out looking really good!

Or better yet, get those dirty, protien stained, blue jeans and SHOUT that stain out!

That is just my way of being productive though, you come up with your own cool


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#367060 - 01/02/09 08:00 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
Originally Posted By: Ravenhael

I think its completely unfair that people who want to be CoS members and can't afford it, don't get to join. They deserve to join!

I suggest charging $1,000 to those stuck-up bastards who can afford it, which will pay for those who can't.

Its only fair!



$5,000 should be the minimum laugh
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#367061 - 01/02/09 08:57 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
I'm not shocked by this sort of behavior, but...

Regardless of any comments already made, what does seem relevant and somewhat disturbing to me is clearly the security officer and the staff at this community hospital was not doing their job and should be let go.

They are not employed to sit idly by and do nothing. Are they?


_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


Church of Satan

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#367069 - 01/02/09 11:28 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12579
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The underlying question to be answered is who will pay for it?

If you wish to donate time and money to help someone that is very commendable. Charity works and being charitable to others is its own reward.

However if you force others to donate time and money to help, what about their rights to their own time, money, and life?

Whenever I hear someone proclaim how someone has a "right" to some service or drug or treatment, I cannot help but wonder who will be forced to pay for that "right".

I am 100% in favor of charitable donations by those who wish to do so.

What is troubling is to not realize that when it isn't voluntary then it is imposed slavery.

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#367072 - 01/02/09 11:59 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Nemo]
ZackC Offline


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: WA
Originally Posted By: Nemo
The underlying question to be answered is who will pay for it?

If you wish to donate time and money to help someone that is very commendable. Charity works and being charitable to others is its own reward.

However if you force others to donate time and money to help, what about their rights to their own time, money, and life?

Whenever I hear someone proclaim how someone has a "right" to some service or drug or treatment, I cannot help but wonder who will be forced to pay for that "right".

I am 100% in favor of charitable donations by those who wish to do so.

What is troubling is to not realize that when it isn't voluntary then it is imposed slavery.


Solid post Magister!

I think we are subject to our governments will for as long as we receive the benefits of that government. Living under a system of laws, enjoying a police force to protect us, constitutional rights, these are all benefits we enjoy on a daily basis. People may say that we shouldn't be subject to its laws because you can't just choose to do w/e you want without being thrown in jail. Another words, we are not given the choice of whether or not we accept benefits from American society because no one really has the ability to just start their own country. To this I would say that you still have the ability to seperate yourself from civil order whenever you want. However when you choose to seperate yourself from civil order and enter a state of nature you are still subject to any powers capable of controling you. Basically, you can't blame a government for existing. Your subjection to it is simply natural, and even though you probably don't have the ability to found your own country, if you got the balls and the brains you sure can change it.
The strong deserve to control the weak!!! Is it ok for a group of people to be forced to pay for someone else's healthcare? That's subjective and inconsequential! If the viewpoint that we shouldn't have to is not a popular belief then it will not prevail.

If the American people want to support each other through social security, and emergency room care, it IS in a way slavery, buts its a natural slavery. If someone talented enough, cares enough to change things and make America more Satanic then it will happen. The world is a battle of ideas and ambitions.

Sorry if that was too Hobbesian lol.


Edited by ZackC (01/03/09 12:01 AM)

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#367073 - 01/03/09 12:00 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Nemo]
Schadenfreude-6 Offline


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 120
Loc: MB, Canada.
I got a kick out of this thread, seriously... who cares? Why subject yourself to something that you really shouldn't have to worry about? You're only causing yourself more stress and things to be upset about that you just do not need in your life. Do I think it is bad that she died? Not really. Like gypsy said earlier, the people working security who most probably saw it on the video cameras should have done their job and reported it to someone. Oh well, one less human to over populate the earth.
_________________________
"Inferior organisms succumb and perish or are enslaved. Superior organisms survive, propagate, and possess." - Charles Darwin

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#367175 - 01/03/09 11:56 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Philotechnic Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
What's with all this humanitarian crap? Would YOU have gone and helped this woman in New York? Hell, why stop there, afterall maybe your city has a hospital, go help all of the people that aren't receiving help there.

These EVIL doctors who sit idly in their offices counting their hundred dollar bills DESERVE punishment and enslavement to their jobs for not helping this poor, poor soul! Wha wha wha

You say can't help? You wont help?

It's easy to scream and squalk about the inhumanity of others, when you yourself couldn't care less other than shining a goodguy badge for doing the minimum: caring enough to bitch about it.

If a lot of the herd can easily forget something so tragic as 9/11, they can forget a woman dying in a hospital even easier.

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#367179 - 01/03/09 12:56 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Philotechnic]
ZackC Offline


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: WA
Other than give this woman her medication and some counseling what could they have done? She should have been getting better treatment for herself long before this ever happened.

Even if she is financially limited it is no excuse. Taking care of your phsyical and mental health is a lifelong process. Ultimately we don't know the details of her condition however.

I bet the doctors working in that psych ward see soooo much crazy stuff every single day that eventually it becomes harder to distiguish between who is seriously in need and who is just acting out. She should have talked to the police officer and told him she really could be in danger of death. She could have called a family member too. She should have taken some kind of action, she should have found someone and if it was her mental condition/ disability that prevented her from even taking care of herself to that degree then this is the real problem.

If she is unable to care for herself then she shouldn't be living by herself.

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#367184 - 01/03/09 03:04 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ZackC]
HorrorCore Offline


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 137
Loc: WA
Quote:
I think you should have taken all that anger/hate and cleaned your house with it.

I mean really, I can scrub a mean floor when I am pissed off and that fucker comes out looking really good!

Or better yet, get those dirty, protien stained, blue jeans and SHOUT that stain out!

That is just my way of being productive though, you come up with your own


Hahahah, I'm the exact same way. As soon as I'm pissed off my house gets raped with clean.

Quote:

I bet the doctors working in that psych ward see soooo much crazy stuff every single day that eventually it becomes harder to distiguish between who is seriously in need and who is just acting out.


I wonder how often one of their patents plays dead...




Edited by HorrorCore (01/03/09 03:05 PM)
_________________________
Do you believe in the truth? Or do you seek it?

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#367187 - 01/03/09 04:12 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: gypsy]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
You know, I'm not going to lose sleep over this, but really, how hard is it to go get a nurse or MD when you see someone fall to the floor? Regardless of the rest of the story, someone falls to the floor, someone says "Miss are you all right? No? I'll get help." If Lassie can do it, a human can do it! cool What's wrong with a little human decency?

~HS~
_________________________
"It does take an exceptional mind and a still more exceptional integrity to remain untouched by the brain-destroying influences of the world's doctrines, the accumulated evil of the centuries-to remain human, since the human is the rational." Dr. Akston in Atlas Shrugged

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued." Socrates

Dragondancer
Temple of Vampire


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#367190 - 01/03/09 05:15 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: dragondancer]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Quote:
You know, I'm not going to lose sleep over this, but really, how hard is it to go get a nurse or MD when you see someone fall to the floor?


Exactly!

On a somewhat related note I have a warning for anyone who might have the misfortune of being hospitalized.

If any doctor (it doesn't have to be yours) happens to say 'hello' to you while in hospital, ignore it and walk away, otherwise do expect a bill in the mail of about $300.00. eek
_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


Church of Satan

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#367194 - 01/03/09 05:35 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: dragondancer]
Cynicist Offline


Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: dragondancer
What's wrong with a little human decency?



Ahh yes, but "human decency" is as much as an oxymoron as "common sense" is.
_________________________
Nazis are just morons who like to play dress-up



"...died beholden to nothin’ and nobody".

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#367204 - 01/03/09 07:15 PM Changing it. [Re: ZackC]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12579
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
...and even though you probably don't have the ability to found your own country, if you got the balls and the brains you sure can change it.


First, thank you for the kind words.

Next, let me tell you a secret.

Lean close.

Don't let others hear.

This is just between you and me.

Are you listening?

Good.

The supreme secret of Satanism....

Wait a moment.

I just noticed someone else listening in.

...

Okay.

Here goes.

The supreme secret of Satanism is the simple fact that...

Just a moment.

...

Good.

Now where was I?

Oh, yes.

The supreme secret of Satanism is the simple fact that you do not have to change other people to get what you want.

No kidding.

It really is just that simple.

Think about how we refer to the herd of humanity who rush about trying to change "the world".

They are all so busy in politics with their certain knowledge of how things are wrong and what other people are doing that is equally wrong.

They are all so sure that if only others would agree with them and do as they say then everything would be different.

And so they form committees, join political action groups, ring doorbells, collect signatures on petitions, donate money to "worthy causes", donate their time to "helping" others, saving the earth, feeding the hungry, ending cancer/heart disease/leukemia/MS/AIDS/etc.

But Satanism is ... selfish.

shocked

And the supreme secret of Satanism is simply that you do not have to change anyone out there to get what you want.

To the contrary.

You only need to give them what they already want to get what you want ...for a fee.

Bill Gates did that.

Warren Buffet did that.

John D. Rockefeller did that.

What you offer has to be what they really want and it can't be fake or you will fail. Con jobs are pointless and short-lived.

But if you simply stop trying to change other people and offer them instead what they really want so that they will be satisfied with what you offer, you will have what you want.

And your world will be changed!

Like magic!

jack


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#367207 - 01/03/09 07:34 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>> Some people are simply dispensable. That's just natural stratification. Personally, I see no reason to believe this woman had much to offer the world.


Well, damn, Rev Bickley!! I couldn't have said this better myself!

Mina
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#367208 - 01/03/09 07:37 PM Re: Changing it. [Re: Nemo]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Gosh Nemo! Everyone did hear what you said! Boy, I know you were trying to whisper and everything, but, you were actually talking a little louder than you had realized!

Now everyone knows the secret to Satanism! wink witch
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#367212 - 01/03/09 08:13 PM Re: Changing it. [Re: MissMina1556]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Regarding everyone hearing & knowing this Secret, a certain Magister Sprague wrote in his book "The Gates of Hell": "Knowledge is not power. Applied knowledge is".

How many will hear & know, vs. how many will apply? wink
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#367215 - 01/03/09 08:43 PM Re: Changing it. [Re: Phineas]
Danny Mc. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
I never knew it was a choice! crossbones I will now apply my arse to my bed, I'm tired. smirk
_________________________
"To be born into this world a sentient, self-conscious and reasoning being, surrounded by inexhaustible glories in Nature, which we may comprehend, possess,enjoy; to be able to rise on the wings of a lofty imagination; to be able to get glimpses of the ideally perfect; to apprehend the Divine; it is to the development and enjoyment of these high powers that the young man is invited. How dare he refuse to qualify himself by the most perfect training of all his powers." Lyman J. Gage 1910


"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#367219 - 01/03/09 09:13 PM Re: Changing it. [Re: Danny Mc.]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Sleep well Nephilim!
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#367228 - 01/03/09 10:57 PM Re: Changing it. [Re: Nemo]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:
What you offer has to be what they really want and it can't be fake or you will fail. Con jobs are pointless and short-lived.

But if you simply stop trying to change other people and offer them instead what they really want so that they will be satisfied with what you offer, you will have what you want.

And your world will be changed!

Like magic!


Well put Magister.

I enjoy the way you put things into simple perspective. Sometimes We make things far more difficult than they actually are.

The world is FULL of magic. How one waves the wand is what it all boils down to. Actions=results.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#367243 - 01/04/09 04:31 AM Re: Changing it. [Re: Nemo]
Ice Claw Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 151
Magister Nemo,
This was a great post, on many levels, as far as I am concerned.

I do not care what they say about you down at the bar...
I think your a great guy!

Dark River




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#367245 - 01/04/09 04:48 AM Re: Changing it. [Re: Nemo]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
Lovely reading. smile

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#367259 - 01/04/09 08:10 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida

Quote:
Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care and not just looked over and left to die. I hope someone pays you the same respect someday rev.


I am mainstream. I disagree with those who feel the woman should have been left to die, and disagree equally with those who feel that by virtue of existence one deserves to exist.

When the legislature produces a law granting everyone health care THEN I can get pissy about the lady dying on the floor.

If you are furious about it, do something about it. Work to get health care legislated for all.

In the meantime I suggest you work hard to have friends and family---others who will go to bat for you when it is needed. That way when it is your turn to need care there will be someone there screaming blue murder to guarantee your survival. Imagine what a person must have done to be utterly alone in an ER? Humans are social animals for a reason.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#367273 - 01/04/09 10:59 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Ygraine]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Ygraine



In the meantime I suggest you work hard to have friends and family---others who will go to bat for you when it is needed. That way when it is your turn to need care there will be someone there screaming blue murder to guarantee your survival. Imagine what a person must have done to be utterly alone in an ER? Humans are social animals for a reason.

Y~


Well...you snooze you lose. I was going to write something along these lines sometime today...but I never found that roundtoit.

This touches on that third way we like to tlak about. In this case, not being so repulsive as to be so utterly alone; and, not being so clingy and needy as to atrophy any shred of dignity and self-worth you might have left.

There is an art in being responsible for your own life, while having the worth and value to others that would cause them to give you a hand, should you need it.

This is similar to what the herd crassly call "scratch my back and I'll scratch your".

But...since you said all that in one paragraph, there's no need for me to bother.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#367277 - 01/04/09 11:57 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: hester moffet
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>>
Did you know the woman?


Don't need to. Everyone deserves equal opportunities to health care and not just looked over and left to die. I hope someone pays you the same respect someday rev.


The issue for me is that if the system happens to fail some Jane Schmo I don't care about, there's a chance it might fail me in a similar way someday, too, even after I've done as much research and work as humanly possible. Of course, regardless of what I think about other people, I do think I'm important and not expendable, and that I do have a right to proper health care, considering I pay for it (either directly or through insurance.)

Well, and if a woman's allowed to drop dead in a hospital waiting room without anyone noticing or doing anything about it, where else might there be holes and flaws in the system? What if that incompetence and apathy spreads to other areas of the health care system? Of course a smart Satanist should do ample research before popping a pill, choosing a doctor, or going under the knife, but accidents happen, and incompetent people do tend to slip in through the cracks, and even the nicer hospitals and HMOs have their share of nitwits on staff or on the board. Believe me, I've been dealing with it since the day I was born.

Anyway, how does a woman happen to languish and die in a hospital waiting room without anybody noticing? Here's how:

1) Diffusion of responsibility. Human beings readily assume someone else will "take care of it," and so they will pass by crashed cars and crumpled bodies on the sidewalk without a second thought. You are much more likely to be helped if you and your would-be rescuer are the only people around at the time of your accident.

2) Human beings take hints from one another on how to behave. If nobody panics or expresses concern, then everyone assumes there's nothing to worry about. Of course, nobody wants be seen as a rebel, a square, a loony, or a fuddy-duddy, so even if they have "unpopular" personal concerns, they'll squelch 'em.

It has everything to do with laziness, apathy, and conformity, and very little to do with actual cruelty.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367280 - 01/04/09 12:19 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> The issue for me is that if the system happens to fail some Jane Schmo I don't care about, there's a chance it might fail me in a similar way someday, too. <<

"The System"

Yes.

Like I said in another post in this thread, the safety nets people like to believe are there are actually illusions.

There are no saftey nets. Like it or not; what is, is.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367282 - 01/04/09 12:29 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:
There are no saftey nets. Like it or not; what is, is.


Exactly!

No one is afforded a safety net. No one is afforded 'equal opportunity'.

WHAT A JOKE!

One of the things I have loved best about My life AND about Satanism is that Satanist see the world AS IT IS, NOT as one would like it to be.

Life is fucking ROUGH at times. It is a roller coaster if you will.

Nothing is promised. NOTHING is for certain.

Get a straw and suck it up! And YES I can speak from experience.

_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#367283 - 01/04/09 12:36 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Granted. But, the fact that the safety nets are faulty doesn't do ME a lot of good. I can't perform my own surgeries. I can't administer or create all of my own medications. I can't forge my own orthotics. And, when I have problems, I can diagnose myself with only so much accuracy, and treat myself with only so much skill.

To a great degree, I rely upon the system for goods and services I can't create or provide myself. So, it's only fair that I take an interest in whether society's safety nets are in good condition or not. It's very easy for completely able-bodied, independent, and healthy people to say c'est la vie to this sort of thing, but I can't be as footloose and fancy free.

Just because the safety nets are faulty doesn't mean we shrug and call it a day. If enough safety nets break, you ultimately end up with a totally broken third-world corrupt shithole society that isn't fun for anyone.

Hospitals, police departments, schools, restaurants, manufacturers, etc.---they all need to be held to a standard. And, if they fall below a given line, they should be promptly fixed, or axed.

Of course we should always err on the side of assuming that people are nitwits and the system may be flawed. People should do research before just letting some random doctor guide them down the primrose path. People should also realize that you typically get what you pay for.

But, every time I go into a restaurant, I don't want to have to seriously worry about finding a cockroach in my pad thai. I don't want to have to worry if the ceiling in the library is going to come down on my head. I don't want to have to wonder if the doctor my HMO's making me go to got his degree from an online diploma mill or an accredited university. When I take some form of medication, I don't want to have to worry about whether the pharmacist or somebody else pissed in the bottle. It's reasonable to have standards as to how certain institutions and systems should operate. Acknowledging and coping with what IS doesn't have to be the first and the last step in the process. The culture wouldn't ever progress if people were only content to merely survive and cope, rather than dream, work, build, and thrive.

Well, and a lot of Satanists are decidedly (and rightly) upset when the situation at hand involves tortured animals, abused children, an unjustly freed criminal, or a loss of First or Second Amendment rights. I'm not the only one with hopes and standards; everyone has a sense of what constitutes proper decorum and justice.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367284 - 01/04/09 12:36 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Evil_Eve]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> No one is afforded 'equal opportunity <<

As I alluded to in my other post, the idea that we cannot discriminate is all under the same umbrella, a self sufficient delusion.

In reality, we can pick and choose. And people do! every day. In the absence of more complete knowledge we all choose how to treat someone based soley on our judgement of how they look - or on how we perceive their actions.

_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367286 - 01/04/09 12:48 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Good point, and YES We do.

I do.

I am quite picky too. I however, do not give anyone any credit unless I see fit.

You're born. So what.

You're born so you deserve what everyone else has.

The criminal mind thinks this way.

Someone has money......more than I have, so I deserve it.

Communist think along these lines.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#367287 - 01/04/09 12:51 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Evil_Eve]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> You're born so you deserve what everyone else has. <<

"Every man is born equal. And then they get dressed."

As it was once said.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367393 - 01/05/09 05:17 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Ygraine]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 48
Loc: MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ygraine

When the legislature produces a law granting everyone health care THEN I can get pissy about the lady dying on the floor.

We have such laws here up north, had them for decades. They don't do much better in practice. And in some cases . . .

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080924.whomeless0924/BNStory/National

. . . embarassingly worse.

Originally Posted By: Ygraine

I disagree with those who feel the woman should have been left to die, and disagree equally with those who feel that by virtue of existence one deserves to exist.


I will agree with that sentiment on the grounds that the womans death was due to incompitence on the part of the staff of the ~place of business~ she had chosen to enter.

And as pointed out elsewhere in this thread (I belive); the womans worth as a creature was not, and at this point is not, assessable.

Prehaps she was a welfare crazy yelling at 40 imaginary cats in a small apartment, prehaps she was a well educated and productive professional suffering a progressivly degenerative psychological melt down.

Prehaps her death was the lifting of a social burden, prehaps it was a handicapping to society.

In any case I havn't found anything to suggest either.

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#367396 - 01/05/09 05:30 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> In any case I havn't found anything to suggest either.<<

She was mentally ill. And hadn't managed to obtain for herself the means to afford proper medical care.

Nature decides.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367400 - 01/05/09 08:10 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 48
Loc: MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley

She was mentally ill. And hadn't managed to obtain for herself the means to afford proper medical care.

Nature decides.


Touche.

A little further research does in fact indicate she did not have health insurance, or for that matter a valid green card.

But if you could extrapolate your point slightly please:
Is it your position that the woman in questions worth is rendered null becuase of her mental condition, or becuase of her lack of actions to provide herself with access to a better tier of treatment for her mental condition?

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#367401 - 01/05/09 08:29 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Alleycat Devil]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> Is it your position that the woman in questions worth is rendered null becuase of her mental condition, or becuase of her lack of actions to provide herself with access to a better tier of treatment for her mental condition? <<

Nature has rendered her null, yes. So in effect, both of the above. The fact that she hadn't provided for herself, or that she was mentally ill, are two sides of the same coin.

It's simply survival of the fitest.

The fact that you and I are both here and surviving well right now is demonstrative of the fact that we are products of good strong genetics through our ancestry. Our genes have presided over other more inferior stock through the previous generations.

However, nature weeds out the weak links in the chain along the way. You or I may be weeded out at some point. Though it is exremely unlikely that we will end up in a dire position such as this woman's.

We may well look after less fortunate members of our families or loved ones for as long as we are around to ensure their survival, but ultimately nature will take its course, just as at some point when the lioness will have to leave her cubs to fend for themselves - not all of them will survive.

Some people are born defective. It is only in human society that we have developed a penchant for protecting the faulty members of the species. The rest of the animal kingdom, of course, kills off its weak. I believe it's called natural selection.

And sometimes, people are simply unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's not people that are intrinsically cruel. It's just nature that is so.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367403 - 01/05/09 09:08 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I've worked in ERs with psychiatric wings as an coordinator, and as an administrator in mental health clinics.

It is unfortunate that she was left there, but it's not that uncommon, and not intentional cruelty. It was negligent, perhaps, but I can say that someone passing by a waiting room, knowing someone could have been waiting for several hours, will often see people sleeping on the floor. The very fact that they are IN the waiting room is because they do not have an available bed.

As for her letting herself get to that position, I agree that she would have fared far better had she taken her illness into her own hands at the onset, but the reality is it can be devastating not having control over your mind, and even more so if your family abandons you.

I am not trying to shift responsibility on the state, or her family, or the health care professionals, just a reality about mental illness.

The truth is even a person who has family support, is aware of their illness, and manages it well most of the time, can still succumb to a random act of neglect when they are incapacitated.

And that's what scares people the most, I think, the sheer randomness of circumstance and death.

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#367412 - 01/05/09 10:32 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Zaftig]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Quote:
And that's what scares people the most, I think, the sheer randomness of circumstance and death.


I completely agree with you. There are obviously plenty of things that an intelligent individual can do to avoid a situation such as this, but things do happen.

Nor is this an isolated case. There was a very similar case in California, where a woman who HAD health insurance AND a caring family surrounding her died in an emergency waiting room, despite the pleas of her family for the staff to recognize that she was a critical case. It was a case of neglect, plain and simple. She didn't appear as sick as she was, and she was pushed aside. It happens.

"Good, they get what they deserve" was not the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that initial article. I did, however, contemplate how it's a terribly shitty and sad way to die. For me,it's not like hearing of a junkie overdosing or a criminal being killed or executed. More than anything I truly hoped that, as Zaftig stated, circumstance doesn't ever put me or any of my loved ones in a situation such as that.


_________________________
Hail Satan!
Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

"An inordinate passion for pleasure is the secret of remaining young" - Oscar Wilde

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#367413 - 01/05/09 10:39 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>>
The fact that you and I are both here and surviving well right now is demonstrative of the fact that we are products of good strong genetics through our ancestry. Our genes have presided over other more inferior stock through the previous generations.


Genes aren't the only players here, though. There are two others: luck and character.

Even good genes, for example, can become mutated or can be encoded improperly during the replication process.

And, even a person with good genes can, say, get killed in some unfortunate accident, or die of some nasty disease.

And, even a person with good genes can be driven to the brink of despair or madness if they end up in the wrong kind of environment. There are plenty of mental illnesses--some with genetic components, and others seemingly without--that are triggered primarily by stress or trauma.

From there, various health issues actually aren't genetic, or are only partly so.

Then, there's character, and the actions that flow from it. A person with good genes may not know how to fully exploit that gift. A good genetic specimen can still be a shit-for-brains. Good genes don't automatically grant a person creativity, tenacity, wisdom, street smarts, or any number of other qualities that often have to be tempered and developed in life.

Likewise, people with shitty genes can possess qualities that allow and inspire them to rise above all that. Such people have shown that you can still keep playing cards--and maybe even win--even if you initially get dealt a bad hand.

If you judge folks purely by their genetic codes, you end up tossing out a lot of real gems, and keeping a lot of people who are little more than junk. Not even Nature judges organisms purely by their genes, because natural selection sometimes spares those freaks and geeks who are nonetheless exceptionally cunning, lucky, or skilled, and whacks those who happen to be standing under a rotting tree at the wrong time.

Originally Posted By: Bruja


I completely agree with you. There are obviously plenty of things that an intelligent individual can do to avoid a situation such as this, but things do happen.



Precisely.

Which is why it's not just folly to take an interest or to feel uneasy when something like this happens. You can do everything right on your end, and then, some professional or authority figure can act stupidly or negligently, and you may not be able to do a whole lot about it at the time.

Whether we like it or not, there are moments and there are ways in which we are ALL supremely vulnerable.

Loonies and homeless people are one thing, but I don't think anybody here is just content to let natural selection or bad safety nets have their way with THEM. I'm certainly not.

Now, if this women had dropped dead in her filthy hovel, that'd be one thing. Then, it'd be all on her and hers. But, patients dropping dead in hospitals--even shitty ones--is rather like people getting mugged inside of police stations. It's disconcerting.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367419 - 01/05/09 11:18 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> Even good genes, for example, can become mutated or can be encoded improperly during the replication process. <<

Which is part of the genetic process in itself.

>> And, even a person with good genes can, say, get killed in some unfortunate accident, or die of some nasty disease. <<

That is what I said. You can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Although contracting a nasty disease is also dependent on genes. Again, the strongest survive.

The issue here isn't "luck" but natural selection - which can seem cruel in the sense that it can be indiscriminate.

But.. and it's a big but... many of these people only survive for as long as there is a support system around them. Always at the expense of others. This is a condition unique to the human species.

And it's unique only because religious influences have engendered an egalitarian society.

As I have continually pointed out in this thread... the lesson from a Satanic perspective is to identify the illusions society stands upon. First and foremost be aware that this could happen to you if you let it.

There are no safety nets. Our destiny is in our own hands. And that is a tall order for many people because most people have become subservient to corporations and governmental institutions.

An by the way, intelligence and character comes down to brain chemistry. Which is also genetic.

Unless we are about to start suggesting we have some kind of seperate soul, which I am not, then who we are is defined by our genes.

How we react to external ramifications and stimuli is also dependent on genetic coding in our chemistry.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367426 - 01/05/09 12:13 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
"Genes aren't the only players here, though. There are two others: luck and character."

It's questionable where genes end and character begins, and whether character is entirely based on genes. Regarding luck, though, I completely agree. Luck is a big player in nature. Survival of the luckiest might be as true as survival of the fittest, in the human world more than in the animal world.

The truth is that the world is not perfect, life is not fair, cliche, I know.
I am not however defending the weak complaining that they should be cared for and protected. I don't care too much.
It is the strong and talented that I lament most. And there are such situations where the talented and capable perish in the process, fall through the cracks. Through no fault of their own, but ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time (yes, perhaps, as a result of their own choices, but no one can foresee everything) they do not make it.
One person who was one of the most talented people I knew did not get where he should have gotten (to the top) through sheer bad luck and bad circumstances. He was scum, and I regret his talents being lost more than him destroying his life.
I can guarantee that it is not an isolated case. So many times the ones who are at the top are not truly the best in terms of skill and talent. It can happen that the best fall through the cracks with no one knowing of it.

I don't know if all get what they deserve. It is too complicated to analyze. If we see nature as a perfect system that's helping the strong prosper and rooting out the weak, then probably it can be said that we all get what we deserve. However, human societies are more complicated than that. Luck and circumstances cannot be disregarded.

"Likewise, people with shitty genes can possess qualities that allow and inspire them to rise above all that. Such people have shown that you can still keep playing cards--and maybe even win--even if you initially get dealt a bad hand."

I completely agree. I must say that some things, qualities, are not entirely accounted for by genes. Something like free will, maybe? But that is a whole other discussion.

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#367431 - 01/05/09 12:33 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I'm late as usual. And I no doubt will repeat what has already been said. But I am struck by the fact that pretty much any ideal I may hold, someone else will dismiss. As sad as it may seem, not everyone will agree with how I view others, treat others or value others. Tough cookies.

One thing, I think, every Satanist can agree on, it is that we are all responsible for oursleves, in toto. We each may choose to move the fence to include loved ones, parents, children, whatever...but, in the end, we are responsible for ourselves. I am constantly telling my son that I am not responsible for making him happy. My job is to raise him. The same for my wife. And the same for this woman.

If I wake up tomorrow, mentally ill, it will be my responsibility to see that I get the medical treatment I need. If you see me face down somewhere, it would be nice if you helped me up...but it wouldn't be your responsibilty.

Would I help someone whe seemed neglected? Depending on the circumstances, probably. But ultimately, we are responsible for our own welfare.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#367446 - 01/05/09 03:06 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
But.. and it's a big but... many of these people only survive for as long as there is a support system around them. Always at the expense of others. This is a condition unique to the human species.

And it's unique only because religious influences have engendered an egalitarian society.


Perhaps religion tends to intensify bonds between people, and promote and encourage even greater dependence, but bottom line, human beings are social animals--as most primates are (because, indeed, many mammals are).

If you look at, say, wolves, only very rarely do you encounter a "lone wolf," and such wolves lead very difficult, and often short, lives, because it takes an entire pack to bring down the good game, and to fend off various kinds of threats.

Similarly, only very rarely do you see a human being who is fully happy and completely successful being off by themselves, sans connections, and sans society. It usually takes a lot of work, grit, and commitment to be 100% self-sufficient and wholly autonomous.

If you use technology, services, or goods that you didn't create yourself, you're relying on and putting some faith in an external human system of one sort or another.

Certainly, most of us probably go to the hospital at least once in a while, or at least, we have friends and family who do. And certainly, our own taxes and insurance premiums go up when somebody else files a malpractice suit, can't pay a hospital bill, or causes problems for other people or bureaucracies because they refused to get help for some medical or psychological issue. So, it's hard to escape, and so it's not out of the question to at least have some standards or preferences when it comes to how the system functions.

Quote:
An by the way, intelligence and character comes down to brain chemistry. Which is also genetic.


But, how genes activate and interact also depends on environment. What a person learns or experiences influences which traits manifest themselves, and how they get used.

Genes are basically If-Then switches. If this condition, then this output or response. Because there are numerous potential conditions, and they all cascade and interact in different patterns and relationships, you end up with range of options that is still ultimately fixed and finite, but nonetheless incredibly broad.

Certainly, even someone whose genes have put them in the running for a genius IQ won't ever meet even a third of their potential if you lock them on a dark, empty room from age two on.


Edited by TrojZyr (01/06/09 12:25 AM)
Edit Reason: blah blah blah
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367450 - 01/05/09 03:51 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> Perhaps religion tends to intensify bonds between people, and promote and encourage even greater dependence, but bottom line, human beings are social animals--as most primates are (because, indeed, many mammals are).

If you look at, say, wolves, only very rarely do you encounter a "lone wolf," and such wolves lead very difficult, and often short, lives, because it takes an entire pack to bring down the good game, and to fend off various kinds of threats.<<


You don't see lone wolves because, as I already said, animals kill off the weak amongst them.


>> Similarly, only very rarely do you see a human being who is fully happy and completely successful being off by themselves, sans connections, and sans society. It usually takes a lot of work, grit, and commitment to be 100% self-sufficient and wholly autonomous<<

Successful human beings keep others dependent on them - not the other way round. They use and implement the sevices of others.

We would call it lesser magic.

As Magister Svengali once pointed out, great minds do not think alike. Great minds think differently.

You are missing the essence of it entirely. But I'm not sifting through your whole post.


_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367454 - 01/05/09 04:16 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
Our destiny is in our own hands.





This is where luck plays out IMO. Our destiny can be set on a path by our own hands, but its in the hands of others as well. Muggers, Snipers, Rapists, Pedophiles, or anyone that can kill or traumatize with absolutely no provocation. If it is not in your will for any of these things to happen to you, yet they do, then obviously your destiny was not in your own hands. Any Satanist wants to live more than anything, ie vital existence! So how is our destiny not in the hands of others when they take the lives that we hold above all else, and struggle to maintain the highest quality of said life?

I'm trying to understand your point of view rev, I truly am.

I think what you are saying is that "people die, its only natural, how or why is inconsequential." Am I correct in this assumption?

If so, do you feel it is natural-selection when someone dies as result of murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc?

And again I'm not trying to be cross, i'm just trying to see things from where you stand, so I can understand it better. And I don't think you cold for your comments, not brutally so anyhow. People die everyday. I've seen much much worse ways to die on the site in my signature. I just think it was truly sad and an injustice that she died this way. It is as you said though, proof that these systems (or safety-nets) are flawed, and that one should want the best, but expect the worst out of these systems.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#367455 - 01/05/09 04:26 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: ArtAche86]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
> I'm trying to understand your point of view rev, I truly am. <

I've outlined my point of view quite clearly in this thread.

If you don't see it, then we'll agree to disagree.

However, what I am not understanding is the penchant in this thread for so many to identify with the lower members of the species.

I do not believe the rudiments of murder and crime are appropriately discussed here. But whether murder can be considered natural selection has been the topic of many a philosophical study if you'd care to read up on it.

Natural selection, as I have already stated, can be indiscriminate, yes.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#367468 - 01/05/09 05:50 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley

Successful human beings keep others dependent on them - not the other way round. They use and implement the sevices of others.

We would call it lesser magic.


That is exactly true.

But, even among humans who have throngs of people who depend or rely on them, I don't know a single one who in turn doesn't rely on anyone else and/or doesn't rely on various things created by human beings.

I'm quite sure I get your point, Reverend. The weak perish--agreed. Social nets are illusory and fragile--true. This lady is dead as a result of choices she made, resulting from stuff that happened to her--absolutely true. The lady probably wasn't going to be contributing much to humanity--I have no idea, but probably true. Shit and Natural Selection Happen, and life isn't fair or just---Yes, but.

Now, never have I said anyone has "rights" or the like. That woman had no intrinsic right to health care or even, to life. I'm seeing it from a customer service perspective---so, my assumption is that any hospital that lets people languish and drop dead in the waiting room is at least guilty of negligence and incompetence. (To say nothing of how backlogged they must be for people to be there, waiting, for a day!) I think we should at least take interest when a hospital is negligent or incompetent, because those same idiots could be coming at us with pills and syringes next time around.

Quote:
You don't see lone wolves because, as I already said, animals kill off the weak amongst them.


And a lone wolf is a weakened wolf is a weak wolf is a dead wolf.

The social bond was largely the source of strength and the vehicle for survival. If you're a wolf, you don't usually catch a moose by yourself, after all.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367505 - 01/05/09 09:13 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Mr.Terrestrium Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 41
Loc: Arm's reach from a Glock 26



Quote:
Now, never have I said anyone has "rights" or the like. That woman had no intrinsic right to health care or even, to life. I'm seeing it from a customer service perspective---so, my assumption is that any hospital that lets people languish and drop dead in the waiting room is at least guilty of negligence and incompetence. (To say nothing of how backlogged they must be for people to be there, waiting, for a day!) I think we should at least take interest when a hospital is negligent or incompetent, because those same idiots could be coming at us with pills and syringes next time around.


This is what happens when insurance companies run hospitals. Those with decent insurance get decent treatment, those with poor insurance or nothing can end up with sponges nestled between organs. The (further)socialization of healthcare under BrObama in the 'states will ensure this happens more and more, as Uncle Sham tends to screw up everything he gets his grubby fingers on.

Privatization, baby. That's where the good stuff is!

Ron Paul would've done this place right, but that's another thread.
_________________________
http://demonharris.blogspot.com

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#367507 - 01/05/09 09:26 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: gypsy]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Meanwhile, down on the farm….

Hospitals have big financial incentives in recruiting these sorts of people in order to receive kickbacks.

7 hospitals in NY accused of $50M Medicaid fraud.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_us/medicaid_lawsuit
_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


Church of Satan

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#367536 - 01/06/09 05:57 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Charlie R]
Darkahn Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 410
Loc: Florida, USA
Once, I was watching The Dark Knight while it was still in theatres. During the scene where you are introduced to Twoface, a rather oversized woman two rows behind me (in stadium seating) began breathing heavily, dropping either bagfull of her large popcorn order.

She began pleading for help and saying she "wasn't joking", that she "wasn't feeling good". I waited probably a good two minutes, with not a soul in the theatre saying a word to, or about her, before I finally grew tired of her interrupting the movie.

Frankly, I didn't give a good god damn whether she was having a stomachache or a heart-attack.

If she had been someone who clearly looked otherwise healthy, or was simply elderly, then I would have immediately done something. Pigs deserve to die a pig's death.


Unfortunately, it took me about four minutes to finally get a manager in the theatre, who escorted her out for a medical checkup with the Mall EMTs. Interesting, to say the least, that she was able to simply get up and walk out when given the attention she oh-so-desperately requested -- and not BEFORE the manager came.

As the movie ended, and the next showing was beginning to seat, I saw the same lady -- apparently going to try again -- with another two bagfulls of popcorn.

That day, I decided not to pursue a career in medicine, as I once originally planned.

Frankly, the herd doesn't really care unless they're being told to care. And most individuals simply judge based on a particular criteria whether to care or no.

While it is true the hospital staff had a professional, arguably ethical, and perhaps legal requirement to attend to her, she had "cried wolf" numerous times in the past.
_________________________
Meine Ehre heißt Macht

Undercroft


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#367544 - 01/06/09 06:51 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
MissMina1556 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 1386
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
>> Successful human beings keep others dependent on them - not the other way round. They use and implement the sevices of others.

We would call it lesser magic.


There once was a great man in my life, who was in fact, a defacto Satanist. I watched this man with awe and admiration. Everything he touched turned to gold. He was a more than successful business man. I would sit back and watch how he ran his business. He ONLY surrounded himself with the best. But, he was the Alpha Wolf. The staff he hired, very carefully mind you, did everything he wanted, with professionalism, strength and the employees were of the highest caliber.

He had them do the work. Also, they knew they were highly appreciated, but they did everything for this man.

He sat back and reaped all the rewards as his company became a multi million dollar company.

He got all the praise. But, in turn, he treated all his employees with much respect and appropriate raises. They did their jobs as they were hired to do, and they also went above and beyond the call of duty, because they knew the Alpha Wolf would acknowledge them and take care of them.

I learned a lot from watching this man. He had it. He knew how to use the world around him for himself only. Brilliant.

He was my father.
_________________________
YOU ARE DEEP, DARK AND LOVELY.


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#367561 - 01/06/09 09:36 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Zaftig]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1685
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Zaftig


It is unfortunate that she was left there, but it's not that uncommon, and not intentional cruelty. It was negligent, perhaps


I've worked in the same field myself so I understand what you mean, and I did post a comment about it in the beginning of this topic, but I removed it again because I didn't have energy to discuss what is logic to me.

In order to understand the complexity of this you either need a high IQ, or experience in this field - either as a patient or a worker....

However, I know that some people shouldn't work in this field, because a high emotionel Intelligence is indeed needed. - So things isn't just black or white.

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#367563 - 01/06/09 10:05 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Mr.Terrestrium]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Well, and I recently learned that some insurance companies don't technically make a profit, and I'm still trying to parse THAT bit o' information, because while profit is hardly the only motivator in the universe, I still wonder what provides the incentive to provide adequate care.

I honestly don't know if privatization would fully 'do the trick.' I'd have to witness it for myself. Either way, the fact remains that many hospitals are backlogged, so folks do have to wait a while to get served, and that insurance companies often create this matrix of red tape that you then have to hopscotch through. Some hospitals and some companies are no doubt better than others, but even then, they still have their flaws and rough points.

In any case, I tend to think that being at ease with being leaves of grass in the wind is for the Buddhists and the Christians. If Natural Selection is the embodiment of justice and fairness, when it comes to myself, I want things to be monumentally unfair, extremely unjust, and absolutely slanted in my favor wink , and so I always do and say what I can in order to make that happen. Survival is the highest law, after all.

And, I'm honestly not sure why I'm on such a bloody tear about this. It's not like I've had any particularly bad hospital experiences recently. (I don't even think I've even been to the doctor in a while, come to think of it.) I think I laughed when I heard about this story a few months ago, because it is so darkly and bitterly humorous, in its way. Ah, must be a blue funk.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#367565 - 01/06/09 10:15 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: TrojZyr]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8876
I have always found the idea that EITHER government programs or the privatized versions of same, will be inherently better then the OTHER, to be UTTERLY ludicrous, for one apparently TOO simple reason.

There are human beings involved in both systems!

"Private corporations are evil money grubbing entities who will NEVER put the common good first."

Correct.

"Government programs will ALWAYS be bloated and ineffectual disasters."

Correct.

Any time I hear someone say that "X program" would be better off privatized OR governmentally run, I crack up and shake my head.

What is it about fundamental human stupidity and incompetence and greed and corruption that make people think that putting it in a different structural and conceptual framework will magically make disappear?

If a corporation runs it, the "consuming public" gets screwed.

If the government runs it, the "tax paying public" gets screwed.

I have zero "faith" in either system, although I do have a hard-wired tendency to think that "the invisible hand of the market" is a bit more real than "the spirit of public service", in the long run.

Human stupidity will ultimately corrupt ALL systems - it's just that some systems take longer and are harder to fuck up than others.

wink
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

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#367573 - 01/06/09 12:02 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Quaark]
Mr.Terrestrium Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 41
Loc: Arm's reach from a Glock 26
Originally Posted By: Daark
I have zero "faith" in either system, although I do have a hard-wired tendency to think that "the invisible hand of the market" is a bit more real than "the spirit of public service", in the long run.
wink


My point exactly.
_________________________
http://demonharris.blogspot.com

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#367600 - 01/06/09 06:25 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
DravenX Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Lake Superior
[quote=WhiskeyBickley]>>

Some people are simply dispensable.


Unfortunately, ALL people are dispensable.
_________________________
Hellbound . . . . .

"We must believe in free will; we have no choice."
Isaac Singer

"I am a vampire . . . bow down before me. Yeah right."

"The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors."
Sam Harris

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind."
Marquis De Sade

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#367862 - 01/09/09 03:08 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Quaark]
MementoMori Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 369
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: Daark
But anyway, that's about as likely to happen as Svengali becoming a greeter at WalMart.


I had a great laugh over this one. Thank you.

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#369086 - 01/19/09 04:37 AM Re: Cruel People [Re: Zaftig]
dopeoncandycanes Offline


Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 24
Loc: Colorado Springs
So... the sad thing about this story is it was *really* funny in Joe's Apartment when the artist guy did it. Not so funny in reality.

Quote:
The truth is even a person who has family support, is aware of their illness, and manages it well most of the time, can still succumb to a random act of neglect when they are incapacitated.


What I've been skimming through pages and pages, eternally it feels like, to see if anyone said yet.

I don't think that anyone deserves to be treated or left to rot. It doesn't matter what someone has or hasn't done with their life or whether or not they are worthwhile human beings or scum. In this case, the only things that matter are the people around said someone. Maybe they will get lucky and a person will feel for a pulse; some aren't so fortunate and end up in these stories. I think that every person that strode past her is guilty of negligence and nothing more.

I would have helped her, because I know how it feels to combat a mental illness that messes with two of my five senses, sometimes even my actions and memories. I've also had seizures that leave me fully conscious and immobile for more than twenty minutes, and nothing is more terrifying than being helpless while wondering if you'll die, be rescued, or just get better somehow. I am "not normal" without medication to balance some things out in my brain.

Anyway.

Even if she was the fiftieth person I'd checked on that week and the forty-nine before her were all just peachy, I would have checked to at least see if that woman was alive.
_________________________
I would I could stand on a busy corner,
hat in hand, and beg people to throw me
all their wasted hours.
~Bernard Berenson

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#369136 - 01/19/09 01:44 PM Re: Cruel People [Re: dopeoncandycanes]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: dopeoncandycanes
I've also had seizures that leave me fully conscious and immobile for more than twenty minutes, and nothing is more terrifying than being helpless while wondering if you'll die, be rescued, or just get better somehow.


I witnessed a 23 year old man have his first seizure of his entire life once in a training program at work. He was sitting there one second, and then he let out this awful wailing/choking sound. I laughed at first because I was looking the other direction and thought he was joking, until I seen his leg come up, and me and another guy grabbed him before he fell backwards to the ground. We let him down easy and it took him probably a good 15 minutes to unlock all of his joints and stop grimmacing.

Its easy to see how Clergy once thought people were possessed when this occurred. Scary really.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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