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#370889 - 02/04/09 01:39 AM Introduction / Philosophical question
LucifersBlood Offline


Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Colorado
Greetings fellow Satanists. I have been a proclaimed Satanist for about a year now, after realizing i've had the principles my whole life. I figured it was time to introduce myself on the board.

As for my question...
I got a copy of the Satanic scriptures a little while ago in the mail, and like a typical Satanist, i've been devoting the majority of my free time to it smile
I had one question though, it states that this is our life, and our only life. I am wondering if this is the typical viewpoint of you guys on the board.
Personally, I believe in reincarnation. I don't think it's possible for our souls to know what we know from one life as a human.. and whether you read the philosophies of Plato or Neitzshe, it's reinstated..
I guess I was wondering more about the philosophy that states that we have one life. Is this more Christianity derived? and what are your basic viewpoints as to when and where we're created, and what happens after our life?
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"Today I love myself as I love my god: who could charge me with a sin today?
I know only sins against my god; but who knows my god?"
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#370890 - 02/04/09 01:48 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> Personally, I believe in reincarnation. I don't think it's possible for our souls to know what we know from one life as a human <<


What convinces you that we have a soul?
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#370893 - 02/04/09 02:17 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Welcome to LTTD. smile

As for your question, ask yourself why do you think reincarnation is real?
Do you believe, or do you know--or do you WANT to believe?

There has been no real evidence to support the notion of an afterlife or reincarnation. Everything we have acquired from science tells us that this is all there is. It may be dissappointing to many, but it is better to know this early on so you do not get dissapointed when you reach your late years and realize that you have not lived the life you wanted.

So our lives are precious, we want to live it out as best as possible and not waste it.

In the end, contrary to popular belief, you will probably regret the things you didn't do in life, rather than the things you did.



Edited by Enigma777 (02/04/09 02:20 AM)

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#370903 - 02/04/09 05:47 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Noordenzuid Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 194
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Greetings.

From a Satanic perspective, belief may not be the right word. The after life is something we assume does not exist because it hasn't been proven and we really don't waste our time trying to figure out if it does.

By shunning such mystical predictions, we devote all our energy and motivation into enjoy THIS life here and now.

One tends to find in the spiritual religions that people are so hung up about what's to come after death, that they convert life into one long waiting room session. They live in fear that they will be judged by this big guy in the sky and directed to doom or bliss.

To answer your last couple of questions, science has clearly told us how one is born/created.

What happens after our life? Most will never know because they will be dead, hence our fulfillmnent of life now.

Lucky for me, I will be around for a long long time, so it is a pointless question for me to answer wink

HS!
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"For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life."

-Albert Camus

"To passion, to paradise, to pain, to night."


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#370912 - 02/04/09 10:08 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Noordenzuid]
underworld Offline


Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Germany
Hi,

I don't get the point of the discussion. It's up to everybody to believe what he wants. For me, it's not that clear that there is no aferlive or reincarnation. At least we all don't know what happens if we are dead, and just because sience hasn't proved that there is a afterlife, doesn't mean there is none. So, maybe there is. But it doesn't affect me in this life, so why think about?

But, just out of curiosity, why do you think there is reincarnation? What makes you sure that you (your soul or whatever) are reborn? And how should this happen?

Hail.
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If you ask a question, you should never be afraid to hear the answer!

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#370913 - 02/04/09 10:14 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
"Everything we have acquired from science tells us that this is all there is."

Science doesn't tell that as a fact. It is a conclusion that many people draw based on certain evidence.

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#370918 - 02/04/09 11:03 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: LucifersBlood

Personally, I believe in reincarnation. I don't think it's possible for our souls to know what we know from one life as a human.. and whether you read the philosophies of Plato or Neitzshe, it's reinstated..


What makes you think Nietzsche proposed belief in reincarnation?

Why would you believe you have a transcendental non-material "soul"?

Nietzsche was highly critical of Plato's transcendentalism.

....back to the drawing board.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
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#370920 - 02/04/09 11:21 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Svengali]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
This is simply an observation however, after seeing many 'do you believe in reincarnation etc.' type questions, I have finally come to the conclusion that some OK, many people simply want/need to be told what to believe/think.

Edit: To the original poster, I wanted to clarify that I am not only speaking of reincarnation but also of the many different questions of what happens to one after they die.


To 'believe' in something one is not sure of doesn't make much sense to Me. I can understand the 'hoping part' as many people really want to believe that there is something better out there (after here).

Best possible advise is to live everyday as if it were your last because it just could be. Instead of building sandcastles in the sky, or trying to get it right in the alleged 'next life', it would make more sense to get it right the first time. Now is the time.

















Edited by Evil_Eve (02/04/09 11:37 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification.
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#370921 - 02/04/09 11:38 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Svengali]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Magister Svengali, it was some Neitzshe (probably neighbour), not Nietzsche. grin smile

edit: I want to say in general, that I just couldn't resist. I wonder, that someone didn't create a theory about afterlife, which would describe pink rabbit with lolipop welcoming us into the otherside.
That is option, too...


Edited by Spelled Moon (02/04/09 11:45 AM)

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#370929 - 02/04/09 01:55 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Spelled Moon]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Spelled Moon
I wonder, that someone didn't create a theory about afterlife, which would describe pink rabbit with lolipop welcoming us into the otherside.
That is option, too...


You mean, like a cosmic Bunny Club?
I'd sign up for that. On second thought, I rather prefer the real thing.
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#370933 - 02/04/09 02:10 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Spelled Moon]
LucifersBlood Offline


Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Colorado
Just got all these replies so I will do my best to answer all of them:
First of all, Nietzshe believed that our world happens in a spiral, from birth to death to rebirth, though changing with every cycle (I don't have the exact resource, I heard this from a proffessor).. In his criticism on Plato, he criticized Plato's theory on separation of body and soul, not his theory on reincarnation. He does state, however, that Plato could have been holding back some of his beliefs because of the time in which he was publishing his philosophies. (this can be found in his work, The Problem with Socrates)
On the aspect of whether or not we have a soul, this is a question that no one can really answer for you. I believe that we are carnal beings, and our body is in connection with our soul during our lives. I do believe, however, that our bodies are mortal and our souls are immortal.. our bodies are simply the vessel that carries us through our lives, allowing us to experience pain and pleasure. If you believe that we are soulless, then my advice to you is to simply carry on your existance as a carnal being of the flesh.
In response to why I believe in reincarnation, there are several, several reasons, but I will mention the one that I think would best respond to your questions. So many people live their lives fearing death and the unknown. By believing in immortality through rebirth: the everlasting chance to learn, make mistakes, and try different things, has helped me transcend that. (some people simply believe in a nothingness that ensues death - while this serves their purpose, it makes life seem empty and pointless to me - what, if there is nothing, are we trying to achieve then? what is the point of our quest for knowledge?)
Mostly I was wondering, out of curiosity, what other spiritual views Satanist had of the afterlife (besides reincarnation). I've heard a lot of rejection of all beliefs, including an afterlife or a soul, but as far as spirituality in Satanism (some people may see this as an oxymoron), I have only heard of reincarnation.
_________________________
"Today I love myself as I love my god: who could charge me with a sin today?
I know only sins against my god; but who knows my god?"
-Nietzsche

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#370939 - 02/04/09 02:47 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Schadenfreude-6 Offline


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 120
Loc: MB, Canada.
Eternal recurrence is one thing but IMO it does not have anything in common with reincarnation (in the sense of being reborn). ER, at least how I understand it is the idea that the Universe repeats itself over and over in the same manner, we live the same lives over and over, basically. Where as reincarnation is the belief that if you live a "Good" life you "move up" a notch on some spiritual totem pole being reborn as a person with higher standing on this world for your "Good deeds" in life or some kind of animal (correct me if I'm wrong).

I know that I will die, I think that everything goes black, my body rots and I become fertilizer for the soil that I am buried in, for the earth that gave birth to my species. If you believe we have souls because we are "Alive" then do trees have souls? No one can answer this, we will never know so why worry about it?

Personally I'm not too concerned about what happens when I die, I am more concerned with enjoying my life, today, here and now.

Interesting thread though.
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#370940 - 02/04/09 02:48 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
I've searched for cosmic bunnies. smile "interesting" grin

I prefer real thing in presence, of course, too. smile

Just wanted to express, how absurd it seems to me. I am not expecting anything in the end; but if I should expect and meditate about something, what I can not predict, why not about bunnies...

If bunnies were taken into consideration by 'believing' people for enough long time, they could become the same "real" as anything else, for people. It is just about what people get used to.

This reminds me of one thing, in Czech republic exists a church, which is called "Vesmírní lidé" (Cosmic People), and they believe there are kind human beings living in the space and that there are also little lizards, who want to destroy people, implant chips into us, to make us part of "chip hell". (This was amusing people in my country for quite a time) And of course, to catch more people, Jesus has his important place there, too.
Not surprising at all, people accept it. So, why not pink bunny? smile

To some, bunnies may appear absurd, as to me Space People and reincarnation and any kind of belief in afterlife; and yes it is the same absurd, as it is all just human 'fantasy'. A.S. LaVey has nice part about that in TSB.

(It was amusing for me; I was reading TSB about ten years ago, and I had that opinion about religions and always thought, that those words were mine conclusion... and to re-read it after years in The Satanic Bible really amused me, as I realised it was Mr. LaVey's job with me... I always agreed, he just gave form to my, back then TOO young, thoughts.)

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#370941 - 02/04/09 02:49 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
Quote:
By believing in immortality through rebirth: the everlasting chance to learn, make mistakes, and try different things, has helped me transcend that.?


Immortality through reincarnation is equal to the Christian notion of eternal life after death. Both involve an idea of a soul that lives separate from the physical body. It also alleviates responsibility from your immediate circumstances, as you hold hopes or dreams for another chance, another life.

Satanism rejects that notion.

Magister Svengali best described the notion of a "soul" as what people commonly use to refer to their mental/emotional lives.

Therefore it enters into common usage and has a certain legitimacy in popular thought.

Quote:
(some people simply believe in a nothingness that ensues death - while this serves their purpose, it makes life seem empty and pointless to me - what, if there is nothing, are we trying to achieve then?


On the contrary, it makes my life seem fuller. By rejecting the notion of any life after death I am starkly reminded that my focus needs to be on THIS life, here and now. By focusing on an ephemeral notion of a "soul" you allow your life to be pointless.

And of course there's that whole, "Life after death through fulfillment of the ego" thing.

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#370942 - 02/04/09 02:53 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Spelled Moon]
Schadenfreude-6 Offline


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 120
Loc: MB, Canada.
Bunnies are much cuter than space lizards!!!!
_________________________
"Inferior organisms succumb and perish or are enslaved. Superior organisms survive, propagate, and possess." - Charles Darwin

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#370943 - 02/04/09 02:56 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
underworld Offline


Registered: 07/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: LucifersBlood
some people simply believe in a nothingness that ensues death - while this serves their purpose, it makes life seem empty and pointless to me - what, if there is nothing, are we trying to achieve then? what is the point of our quest for knowledge?


I am not trying to achieve anything regarding my "afterlife". Why would I? I live here and now, and everything I achieve I do enjoy now. If I achieve knowledge, I do it for my joy, for my curiosity. Every day is lived for this life, not for another. Everything which just helps me in an eventual aferlife is not worth doing it.

If you need a afterlife to make this life worthfull, than there are many religions telling you what you want to here. Satanist won't tell you such a thing, because they don't know.

About your explanation on why you think there is something like reincarnation: So basically you believe because people live in fear of death? What? Really, what? You believe something because it fits your needs? You are affraid of death and instead of dealing with it you just make up something? You just believe in something to transcent fear? Why do you not face the fact that you can't stand death and do something about it? Talk, think, do... no matter what. Everything is better than to decieve yourself.

Hail.
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If you ask a question, you should never be afraid to hear the answer!

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#370947 - 02/04/09 03:21 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Schadenfreude-6]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
Does anyone think that you can EITHTER live life to the fullest OR believe that death is not the end?
Can't a person live life to the fullest, and at least keep an open mind in regards to what happens when they die?

Personally I think all the ideas of "heaven", "hell", and "reincarnation" are ridiculous, especially if taken literally and dissected.

I understand if people want to believe such things to comfort themselves. I however have no need of that, as I already have a heaven.
At the same time, I would not subscribe to the idea that death is the end.

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#370948 - 02/04/09 03:33 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Svengali Offline
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence is not related to the idea of Reincarnation.
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Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#370950 - 02/04/09 03:42 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Svengali]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
If I understand it correctly, matter has a limited number of possible combinations. Positing time as being infinite, in time, these combinations will recur over and over again. Similar to playing Yatzee. Keep rolling 6 dice over and over again, and similar patterns will be repeated, ad infinitum.

Reincarnation begs the idea of progress...not part of the recuring theme...theme.

Is that about it?


Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (02/04/09 03:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Had to change a recuring spelling error...again.
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#370951 - 02/04/09 03:51 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
If I understand it correctly, matter has a limited number of possible combinations. Positing time as being infinite, in time, these combinations will recur over and over again. Similar to playing Yatzee. Keep rolling 6 dice over and over again, and similar patterns will be repeated, ad infinitum.

Reincarnation begs the idea of progress...not part of the recuring theme...theme.

Is that about it?


That is pretty much it, but Nietzsche also regarded Eternal Recurrence as a challenge and ultimatum of sorts; the superior type could be confronted with the prospect of reliving every aspect of life with all of its horrors, pain, suffering, and uncertainty, identically down to the last detail for eternity and still be able to say "yes" to life.

That was one respect in which he exalted the ancient Greeks; that they could embrace a tragic view of existence and still possess the fortitude to remain life-affirming.

This is in direct contrast to the major religions of the world that glorify suffering for its own sake and advocate withdrawal from the world.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#370956 - 02/04/09 04:53 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Svengali]
Dandy_Zak Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 17
Loc: New England
The question of life-after-death is a fairly irrelevant one: a sort of philosophical escapism, if you will. As the future is completely uncertain, living well in the present is all I can truly assure myself of, as I should think any good Satanist ought to. If there were, by some apparently illogical circumstance, a life after this one, I would endeavor to live that one precisely as I live this one: wholly and with conviction for the present's sake. In the even further unlikely event that the Christian paradigm of existence were relatively accurate, and I found myself damned to Hell for not having given my soul to Jesus Christ for his salvation, I would still stand by such self-extolling autodeism as I practice today, just as they claim Lucifer did, for "To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell."


Edited by Dandy_Zak (02/04/09 04:56 PM)

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#370957 - 02/04/09 05:01 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Svengali]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Svengali

That is pretty much it, but Nietzsche also regarded Eternal Recurrence as a challenge and ultimatum of sorts; the superior type could be confronted with the prospect of reliving every aspect of life with all of its horrors, pain, suffering, and uncertainty, identically down to the last detail for eternity and still be able to say "yes" to life.

That was one respect in which he exalted the ancient Greeks; that they could embrace a tragic view of existence and still possess the fortitude to remain life-affirming.

This is in direct contrast to the major religions of the world that glorify suffering for its own sake and advocate withdrawal from the world.


Ah! The use of pain in developing the Ubermensch.
In relation to this discussion, it is interesting, to me at least, that ancient Judaism actually had a view more consistent with Nietzsche's idea. There was no actual division of humans into physical and "spiritual". There was no seperate soul until religious peddlers needed a fake ailment to cure.

Thanks for the explanation.
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#370960 - 02/04/09 05:07 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11460
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: LucifersBlood
I have been a proclaimed Satanist for about a year now

Then surely you've read the "Live After Death Through Fulfillment of the Ego" chapter in The Satanic Bible. You know, where LaVey points out the some of the fallacies and real motivations behind a belief in reincarnation?

Originally Posted By: LucifersBlood
I guess I was wondering more about the philosophy that states that we have one life. Is this more Christianity derived?

No, you can find plenty of "one life per person" views that predate Abrahamic monotheism, let alone exist outside of it.

Quote:
and what are your basic viewpoints as to when and where we're created,

Well you see, when a man and woman love each other very much...

Quote:
and what happens after our life?

Consciousness ends and we decay, just like any other animal.
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#370965 - 02/04/09 05:58 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Svengali]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
Ah, reincarnation...

I used to have some vauge concepts about reincarnation, though I never really took it very seriously. Indeed, I mostly used my concepts as a counter theory to those who tried to discuss it seriously with me in my university days...

For a bit of fun - my loosely defined theory (in a nutshell) was that for the most part when someone dies their 'soul' - being that of a member of the faceless herd - is rather weak and diluted to begin with and soon after death is recycled and reabsorbed back into a general morass of cosmic 'soul soup'. At some stage in an embryos gestational development, a trickle of this crap is drawn in by the new body (or something like that, you get the general idea) and on and on it goes ad nauseum... (Pointless yes, but in accordance with the general law that enegry cannot be destroyed, only transformed).

The exception was that those with a strength of will and forceful, confident personality were able to 'hold it together' long enough to make it into a new body with their basic personality more or less intact. It had nothing to do with being good or 'karma' - just a survival instinct that would see them inhabit and possess a forming human body that, from their limited dead perspective, seemed to offer reasonable conditions for another enjoyable life (i.e. good DNA, etc).

It was a fair bit more elaborate than that, with quite a few other deviations possible, but it worked for me. However, more importantly, when I wheeled it out it stopped the new agers in their tracks almost better than a .45 Magnum would! (the funniest thing was when they actually started to believe it - they had to figure out how to get a personality! Haha).

From a practical view point, even if my old tongue in cheek philosophy WAS true - it wouldn't interfere with my earthly indugences here and now. I'd cross that that bridge when I come to it, and find another body to play in. coopdevil

P.S. I don't believe in this any more than I do the rabbit with the lollypop theory, which is certainly more colorful and enticing than getting callouses on the hands playing a freaking harp for all eternity... Gah!


Edited by Hedonist (02/04/09 06:04 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling of 'harp' was 'harm'. Fruedian...
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#370978 - 02/04/09 09:08 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: fire_vixen]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Originally Posted By: fire_vixen
"Everything we have acquired from science tells us that this is all there is."

Science doesn't tell that as a fact. It is a conclusion that many people draw based on certain evidence.


That is how science works--by drawing conclusions and creating theories based on facts logic, and evidence. What is best, is that all these are allowed to change and be modified based on new data. That is the modus operandi of science and many aspect of Satanism.

As someone, who follows this kind of process and holds the ideals of science, rational thought, doubt, and critical thinking to a very high esteem, it would be wrong for me to just say there is nothing after death, no question about it!
To everything, there is always the possibility of change. I try to keep an open mind.

But lets be rational, it is very unlikely based on what we know, that there is an afterlife. It is also unlikely that Santa Claus, Peter Pan, Zeus, Shiva, Yahweh, Spaghetti monster, pink unicorns, gremlins, heaven, hell, flying teapots, and fairies in your garden, are real.

They're all great stories, and wonderful products of the imagination, but that's just what they are--stories. Tell them to your children to make their childhoods more interesting and memorable.

As for what goes on in your mind when you die, and what lies in the mysterious beyond, I maturely admit that I don't know.

It is nice to have some good mysteries in this world. It gives incentive for further inquiry and interesting discoveries. And of course no one can forget the great stories and movies! cool

By the way, research has shown that when a person is beheaded, there is still brain activity going on for some time. We can never be 100% sure, but what if you can see yourself without your head before you die?! sick

May be that is why beheading is illegal. skull

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#370980 - 02/04/09 09:12 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291

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#370984 - 02/04/09 09:41 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
all hallows
Unregistered


correct me if i'm wrong, but last time i checked, a satanist doesn't bother wasting time thinking about things like reincarnation.

an entertaining idea at best...

i'd probably come back as an alley cat with a snaggletooth.


Edited by all hallows (02/04/09 09:41 PM)

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#370987 - 02/04/09 09:51 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: ]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: all hallows


i'd probably come back as an alley cat with a snaggletooth.


I would come back as a fly on the wall.
Good times.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#370992 - 02/04/09 10:09 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
If Hinduism was right, I'd probably come back as a penis. whistle zombie


Edited by Enigma777 (02/04/09 10:09 PM)

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#370994 - 02/04/09 10:12 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
all hallows
Unregistered


i hope you enjoy throwing up all the time.

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#370995 - 02/04/09 10:19 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: ]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
There are many things to think about in this world, and many things to do.

I myself don't really care much for reincarnation.
I agree that Satanist have largely similar thinking methods and philosophies.
However, we are individuals, so therefore, with due respect I don't think you should generalize on what Satanists ponder about, and what things we are interested in.

Obviously, some people here do seem to be interested or amused, by the notion of reincarnation, just as many here are interested in magick, Norse mythology, other cultures, et cetera.


Edited by Enigma777 (02/04/09 10:24 PM)

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#370996 - 02/04/09 10:21 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: ]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Originally Posted By: all hallows
i hope you enjoy throwing up all the time.


You got me there! grin blush

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#370998 - 02/04/09 10:30 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
all hallows
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Enigma777
There are many things to think about in this world, and many things to do.

I myself don't really care much for reincarnation.
I agree that Satanist have largely similar thinking methods and philosophies.
However, we are individuals, so therefore, with due respect I don't think you should generalize on what Satanists ponder about, and what things we are interested in.

Obviously, some people here do seem to be interested or amused, by the notion of reincarnation, just as many here are interested in magick, Norse mythology, other cultures, et cetera.


really, what i was trying to get across, is that reincarnation isn't something that a satanist believes in. perhaps my wording was a little goofy. but you are right, there is a difference between belief and interest, yes.

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#370999 - 02/04/09 10:37 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: ]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Yes, now I get what you are saying and I agree with that. smile
I'm sure most Satanists do too.

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#371000 - 02/04/09 10:39 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
May I know what painting that avatar is from?

Looks nice.

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#371001 - 02/04/09 10:45 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Enigma777]
all hallows
Unregistered



i took it from henry fuseli's "the nightmare".

photo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Johann_Heinrich_F%C3%BCssli_053.jpg


Edited by all hallows (02/04/09 10:52 PM)

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#371012 - 02/05/09 01:55 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> I do believe, however, that our bodies are mortal and our souls are immortal <<

The human species has over the course of its evolution developed certain fictions that make life more palatable to our psychology. That is to say, the herd have developed self-sufficient delusions.

Spiritual religions work, psychologically speaking, like mind altering drugs for those that require an escape from the reality of the situation.

It is an interesting observation of Dr. LaVey's that the idea of re-incarnation developed in countries where life was pretty miserable, the concept being if you live well all will be better in your next earthly incarnation.

The whole concept of a soul (in the religious understanding of the word) - just like the whole concept of a creator God or the Nazarene born of a virgin who could walk on water, rose from the dead and physically flew up into the clouds - is completely ludicrous and I do not need proof to the contrary to know it!

Satanists understand life as it is.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#371092 - 02/05/09 05:10 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Lilibeta Offline


Registered: 12/06/08
Posts: 157
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I'm not going to accept or shun an idea simply because a book or a person tells me to. If I was going to be that much of a sheep I'd still be a Catholic or a Wiccan.

@topic:
I was once close to death. I didn't feel my soul ebbing away. My life did not flash before me. There were no lights, voices or tunnels before me. All I felt was my body dying and blackness coming upon me.

I can't say that I buy the reincarnation faerie tale either.
I meet people and some seem familiar to me, as though I've known them before. But they could just remind me of someone or we could just be compatible, and that's not enough to convince me that we've know each other in 'a past life'.

I've never had flashbacks, dreams or any of the other 'signs' that other pagans told me about. Nor do I believe their 'guided meditations' are anything more than the power of suggestion hard at work.

Sure, reincarnation a pleasant notion. So are all the other fantasies that we hash out for ourselves. But I live in the real world, and until a past life, god, the Easter Bunny, Babayaga, Freddy Krueger etc. waltzes up to me and presents themselves for my scrutiny and verification, I'll remain a non-believer.
_________________________

For my sins I will ask no forgiveness. For my sins they are not to forgive.

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#371094 - 02/05/09 06:13 PM Reincarnation = death [Re: LucifersBlood]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I just want to mention one simple thing.

Reincarnation is not survival even if it were real.

Reincarnation follows the following steps:

1. You die.

2. Someone else is born and that person does not have your memories.


Compare this to total amnesia:

1. You lose all of personal memories.

2. The person you used to be is "dead".


What makes you "you" are your memories.

Lose those and you no longer exist, practically speaking.

Reincarnation is nothing more than spiritual Alzheimer's disease.

Go talk to someone who has a close relative who has lost their memories to trauma or disease and this will all become obvious to you.

The people who think that reincarnation means that you survive death have simply not thought it through.

Reincarnation is death as far as you are concerned.

Oh.

Almost forgot.

There is also this popular idea that somewhere along the way if you reincarnate long enough (and win enough spiritual brownie points) then you will recover all of your memories from all of your hundreds or thousands or (think Carl Sagan here) billions and billions of lives.

Sometimes this is supposed to go on between these nasty little incarnations down here on Earth.

Sometimes you have to "evolve" enough to remember all those lives.

Well, look at what happens once again to you if this were true.

Right now you relate to you by remembering your life from birth to the present (really you only remember small parts of your life but we'll keep this simple).

Now what exactly do you suppose happens to your identity as "you" if suddenly you are also a milkmaid named "Harriet" from 1872, a soldier named "Jean" from 1918, a priest named "Paul" from 1066, a prostitute named "Olga" from 436, and add on your hundreds (or thousands or whatever) life memories.

What happens to a can of tomato soup if you mix it into an ocean of chicken soup?

You are so diluted (and convoluted) that "you" cease to exist.

Think it through.

Either way, reincarnation is exactly equivalent to you dying dead and being totally destroyed as far as "you" are concerned.

But then maybe it appeals to so many people because they really are already brain dead anyway! wink

Just think it through from a selfish (Satanic!) perspective and you will understand why reincarnation is the same as absolute death.

Simple.

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#371097 - 02/05/09 06:18 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Quote:
a prostitute named "Olga" from 436,


Hey, Olga was a friend of mine and the prostitution thing was just a rumor. Never charged me a dime! (or piece of silver)
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#371098 - 02/05/09 06:19 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Oh, I almost forgot.

The same folks that think reincarnation is so "good" also do not think that it is right if only you remember your own identity.

That would not be called reincarnation.

That would be called "possession".

And everyone "knows" that possession is evil ...even though possession is nine-tenths of the law! grin

Nope, you with just your memories coming back to life is evil.

Coming back as the Borg is okay though! zombie

Do you get the picture?

You as you, you as an individual - with your own memories, likes, dislikes, passions, loves, relationships, desires, etc. - that is basically evil if you get to live on that way back here on Earth as yourself.

But if you come back as a total amnesiac idiot-smiling infant, well that's spiritual.

And if we did that to convicted murderers the world would rise up and scream that we were monsters.

You see, if it is good for you then it is evil.

It is the same old, same old of what is selfish is "evil" and what is selfless is "virtuous".

That kind of crazy thinking is exactly what Satanism rejects.

And nothing is more selfless than you not being there as you!

No "you" = no "self" = selfless.

I'll take selfishness, thank you! wink

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#371103 - 02/05/09 06:42 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
Nietzsche didn’t like the idea of a beginning or ending of time, and thought that time was infinite. His logic was that if time was infinite events had to repeat themselves eventually. This is a similar idea to the “eternal return” of the Stoics and very different from “reincarnation”. Where is Warlock Reprobate?
_________________________
Warlock ABZU

Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
A.S.L. / T.D.N.

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#371105 - 02/05/09 06:44 PM Re: Olga [Re: HellofallHells]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
That's not how I remember it! laugh

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#371127 - 02/05/09 09:45 PM Re: Olga [Re: Nemo]
Lilibeta Offline


Registered: 12/06/08
Posts: 157
Loc: Alberta, Canada
@ Nemo: "Reincarnation is nothing more than spiritual Alzheimer's disease."

I love that line. coopdevil
_________________________

For my sins I will ask no forgiveness. For my sins they are not to forgive.

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#371135 - 02/05/09 10:22 PM Re: Olga [Re: Lilibeta]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
Fantastic line, and so very true! Even IF the essence of an individual somehow makes it into another body, no-one remembers their past life - so it's irrelevant.

Makes for amusing conversations, but has no practical value to any life loving person what-so-ever.
_________________________
"Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"

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#371140 - 02/06/09 12:14 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Enigma777 Offline


Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 291
Originally Posted By: WhiskeyBickley
The whole concept of a soul (in the religious understanding of the word) - just like the whole concept of a creator God or the Nazarene born of a virgin who could walk on water, rose from the dead and physically flew up into the clouds - is completely ludicrous and I do not need proof to the contrary to know it!


Criss Angel can walk on water! smile

I've seen many people who can fake wonderful miracles such as the ones you mentioned.

I want to learn their tricks so I can also prey and leech off primitive people! coopdevil

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#371143 - 02/06/09 01:15 AM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Thank you for very nice reading (again.. smile ).

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#371208 - 02/06/09 03:29 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
fire_vixen Offline


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 90
Very interesting post, Magister!

I have one question though: are your memories the map or the territory?

It seems like you meant the actual territory, but

"What makes you "you" are your memories.Lose those and you no longer exist, practically speaking."

could mean that without the map one would be lost for all intents and purposes.

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#371213 - 02/06/09 04:27 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
I believe what you are trying to say here, Magister Nemo, is...


whatever it is, you're against it. grin grin grin

And I would agree. wink
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#371219 - 02/06/09 06:16 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
WolfMoon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 732
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Nemo
I just want to mention one simple thing.

Reincarnation is not survival even if it were real.

Reincarnation follows the following steps:

1. You die.

2. Someone else is born and that person does not have your memories.


Compare this to total amnesia:

1. You lose all of personal memories.

2. The person you used to be is "dead".


What makes you "you" are your memories.

Lose those and you no longer exist, practically speaking.

Reincarnation is nothing more than spiritual Alzheimer's disease.

Go talk to someone who has a close relative who has lost their memories to trauma or disease and this will all become obvious to you.

The people who think that reincarnation means that you survive death have simply not thought it through.

Reincarnation is death as far as you are concerned.

Oh.

Almost forgot.

There is also this popular idea that somewhere along the way if you reincarnate long enough (and win enough spiritual brownie points) then you will recover all of your memories from all of your hundreds or thousands or (think Carl Sagan here) billions and billions of lives.

Sometimes this is supposed to go on between these nasty little incarnations down here on Earth.

Sometimes you have to "evolve" enough to remember all those lives.

Well, look at what happens once again to you if this were true.

Right now you relate to you by remembering your life from birth to the present (really you only remember small parts of your life but we'll keep this simple).

Now what exactly do you suppose happens to your identity as "you" if suddenly you are also a milkmaid named "Harriet" from 1872, a soldier named "Jean" from 1918, a priest named "Paul" from 1066, a prostitute named "Olga" from 436, and add on your hundreds (or thousands or whatever) life memories.

What happens to a can of tomato soup if you mix it into an ocean of chicken soup?

You are so diluted (and convoluted) that "you" cease to exist.

Think it through.

Either way, reincarnation is exactly equivalent to you dying dead and being totally destroyed as far as "you" are concerned.

But then maybe it appeals to so many people because they really are already brain dead anyway! wink

Just think it through from a selfish (Satanic!) perspective and you will understand why reincarnation is the same as absolute death.

Simple.


I was originally going to reply to this thread saying :

"Waits for Magister Nemo's response..."

wink
_________________________
WolfMoon

The Blood is the Life

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#371236 - 02/06/09 09:51 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: fire_vixen]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Rather than defining the "self" (map or territory), let's keep it very practical.

If you ever talk to someone who cannot remember their identity, such as a victim of traumatic total amnesia or a victim of senile dementia, you can directly recognize the tragedy and horror the person is suffering.

Even worse is to experience the acute pain that someone who does know the amnesiac experiences. The wife or husband or children have a still living body that looks like their spouse or parent, but the person inside is "gone", lost.

We may debate about what the self "really" is, but take away the memories and that individual self is, to all intents and purposes, gone.

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#371237 - 02/06/09 09:53 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
It is true, sir!

I have been accused of being a Marxist!

A Groucho Marxist!! devilchili

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#371238 - 02/06/09 09:54 PM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: WolfMoon]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Well I decided I better reply now rather than wait to come back in another lifetime! laugh

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#371240 - 02/06/09 10:07 PM Re: "No practical purpose" [Re: Hedonist]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I can't emphasize too much that even if you did remember your "past lives" that this too would not mean anything for your survival.

Drowning in a sea of memories of vast numbers of "past life memories" - including values, likes, and dislikes opposed to the ones you hold now - would just as completely destroy "you" as you are, as if you were possessed by a thousand psychotic ghosts.

This is why I also find no survival value in the pursuit of "cosmic consciousness", the goal of all true mystics. If you become aware of how you are "one with everything" then that speck that you call "you" - with all of your silly little individual likes, dislikes, loves, hates, etc. - would be completely submerged in ...everything else.

To "awaken" to cosmic consciousness is nothing more than to cease to exist as an individual.

Rather than spend fifty years meditating in a cave to shut down the part of the brain that distinguishes you from other objects in your perception, the same thing can be accomplished by just dropping dead (and staying that way, please. No cheating. wink ).

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER FOR THE INCREDIBLY STUPID:
I am not advocating suicide, murder, nor any form of dying. I like life and so should you ...even if you are stupid.



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#371256 - 02/07/09 12:02 AM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Quote:
Now what exactly do you suppose happens to your identity as "you" if suddenly you are also a milkmaid named "Harriet" from 1872, a soldier named "Jean" from 1918, a priest named "Paul" from 1066, a prostitute named "Olga" from 436, and add on your hundreds (or thousands or whatever) life memories.



Dissociative identity disorder?
_________________________
www.churchofsatan.com

Satanism Demands study and not worship!
http://compleatwitch.blogspot.com/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

Avatar used with special permission from Reverend CoffinRust. www.coffinrust.com









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#371257 - 02/07/09 12:04 AM Re: Olga [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Okay okay so when I was Olga I gave Hellofallhells a freebe..but Nemo..I just had to charge you for what you were asking me to do! blush
_________________________
www.churchofsatan.com

Satanism Demands study and not worship!
http://compleatwitch.blogspot.com/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

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#371282 - 02/07/09 05:34 AM Re: Reincarnation = death [Re: Nemo]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Nemo
We may debate about what the self "really" is, but take away the memories and that individual self is, to all intents and purposes, gone.


As always your posts are thought provoking Magister. This made me think about the concept of retaining the memories of an individual beyond what is currently possible by storing them in our brains.

At present it seems mostly to be in the domain of science fiction writers, but I recall some articles in Wired around the turn of the century that spoke of it as a future possibility that scientists think that they can figure out before the next century. To me that has much more interesting possibilities than thinking about who one was in a previous life.

For what it's worth I think that reincarnation as a concept serves two purposes which are more social/psychological.

For people with boring lives this offers an opportunity of adding some "spice" to their lives without the risk involved in actually doing something. Without any risk you can hear tales told to you about past lives (there are always people willing to do this - for a reasonable price smile ) which were much more interesting. Perhaps you were a general in the Roman army or the concubine of an emperor. Now your life is more interesting and you don't complain about your pathetic little life, since you are obviously just serving a temporary karmic sentence that will grant you something interesting in the next life.

The other purpose is in making a social contract, not seen much today in our advanced society, but something useful in the days when individual skills were needed to ensure the survival of a group of people. If you start out telling a person that he/she is the reincarnation of a great hunter or a skilled blacksmith they will (hopefully) start applying themselves to that task and in the end make a valuable contribution.

To me, that's the usefulness of reincarnation, not as a personal offer of hope, but as a tool to be used (or abused in some cases) to keep the social order or ensure personal gain.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#371314 - 02/07/09 10:17 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
It is no coincidence that the word "reincarnation" is very similar to the word "retardation". wink
_________________________
www.churchofsatan.com

Satanism Demands study and not worship!
http://compleatwitch.blogspot.com/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

Avatar used with special permission from Reverend CoffinRust. www.coffinrust.com









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#371926 - 02/15/09 09:26 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Unknown]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
any arguement could be made for or against the idea of reincarnation, hence the on going debate.

Science however is not definative as an argument against it, it is just a different, possibly third view once again. I will explain this as though reincarnation is simply the idea that our physical body will absolutely become fuel for the next being. Does this mean that any knowledge is passed? No, so it an agnostic view i will take, being that we can not prove one way or the other.

On an atomic level however, we are somewhat just many guarks and atoms per se on a tite wave of frequency, be it a sound wave or light wave. since nothing so far is not comprised of these very small molecules etc., we must at least be able to say that metaphorically we have all had multiple experiences, none of wich matter. so as has been said before, maybe the best way to use this energy is to focus on what is physically known to the individual.

I also find it interesting that at death the physical body loses aproximately 21 grams. Is this the essence of the soul being lost? or perhaps just the passing of gas in a proverbial last word...lol
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#371930 - 02/16/09 02:01 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Quote:
any arguement could be made for or against the idea of reincarnation, hence the on going debate.


Some arguments are just more retarded than others.

Satanism is very much so about championing life in the here and now-not some other place or time.

Reincarnation is NOT compatible with Satanism in any type of way, this has been adequately explained by Magister Nemo here, here, and here.

Just go to the grave yard and see how valid the debates for reincarnation are there.
_________________________
www.churchofsatan.com

Satanism Demands study and not worship!
http://compleatwitch.blogspot.com/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

Avatar used with special permission from Reverend CoffinRust. www.coffinrust.com









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#371943 - 02/16/09 07:55 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Unknown]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
any arguement could be made for or against the idea of reincarnation, hence the on going debate.


Some arguments are just more retarded than others.




More importantly, they are a colossal waste of time.
_________________________
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http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#371954 - 02/16/09 10:06 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
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I disagree with you on that notion..now let's argue about it. devilchili
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#371986 - 02/16/09 09:02 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Unknown]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
so, then the simple answer would be that it is not inline with satanic doctrine. as far as it being a waste of time is in the mind of the beholder. satanism is about the individual, which is also why not all of us join cos.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#371992 - 02/16/09 11:37 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
satanism is about the individual, which is also why not all of us join cos.


Every single member of the Church of Satan I have met is an individual.

Starting with Anton LaVey.

wink

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#372016 - 02/17/09 07:35 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Nemo]
WolfMoon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 732
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Nemo
Every single member of the Church of Satan I have met is an individual.

Starting with Anton LaVey.


Coincidence? wink
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#372179 - 02/18/09 01:23 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Nemo]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
I am sure that is the case. (every single member of CoS you have met is an individual.) My point albeit a simple one was that if the arguement was so useless and you had already adequetly answered there was no reason to add. I do agree that the popular notion of reincarnation is of no use on this physical plane,other than to help keep the herd in line (DUMB) however i was also stating another angle at which to approach. That angle being what i percieve to be obvious, that atomically we all sort of recycle. This is in no way to say that any memory is retained at a higher level than possibly cellular. On an extremely small scale. "it depends on what the definition of the word is, IS." William Jefferson Clinton.

With much do respect to the CoS the simple fact that it is an organization is part of the mechanism that kills individuality, otherwise there is no purpose for a hierarchy. I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality. So in no way was that intended as a shot at the organization. Just an observation.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#372184 - 02/18/09 01:30 PM Re: Olga [Re: Hedonist]
TranquilChaos Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 42
Loc: USA IA
Hello individuals this is my first post/introduction here at LttD and I must admit that these arguments are at the very least interesting. I like to think of myself as a philosopher, I took philosophy in college and have been exploring many facets of it myself frequenting my brother Adams (note 1) response. (Not the same Adam from the HOLEY Bible)

Since I was at the ripe age of 10, two years after I realized that I had always been a Satanist 21 years ago, I would spend a couple nights a week exploring epistemology, morality, ect. until six o’ clock in the morning.

I think the first thing to establish is reincarnations definition. After viewing several sources three definitions remain consistent with North America those are as follows

1. The belief that after death the soul is reborn in another body
2. An instance of rebirth in another body
3. Reappearance in a new form of a principle or idea

It is clear that the first two definitions have been discussed the third how ever is irrelevant to our discussion. That would be the definition to describe Jered the Subway spokes person being "reincarnated" from someone who didn’t indulge enough in pride to someone who learn the value of indulging oneself in every thing with balance whether he was consciously aware of it or not.

That being said I do have to add a few things to the arguments for the sake of logical deduction. Regarding the first definition
1. Knowledge is recognizing the patterns in the environment we exist in. i.e. dreams vs. reality the physics of each are different so we treat them differently
2. Science is the documentation of those patterns.
3. Memory is a compilation of experiences stored in a “physically grown” synapses of the brain Ref: http://www.innovationsreport.de/html/berichte/studien/bericht-56007.html
4. Individuality is derived by our individual experiences.
5. Once the physically grown synapses no longer exist, neither does the individual.

As previously mentioned (until there is a change in the available knowledge) there is no REASON believe that any level of consciousness can possibly transfer from one entity to another. Anything beyond that is hope. You would best be spending your time actually performing the research proving one way or the other and/or sharing what you have already learned about the topic.

As humans I see our greatest flaw being that we naturally seek the easiest path. Unfortunately the easiest path is rarely the right/correct path. Because the human ego is so great and seeking the truth is rarely easy, it is with great rarity that I find individuals that are capable of pulling away from the five scapegoats of Ignorance.
1. Government conspiracies
2. Gods-(reincarnation)
3. Extraterrestrials
4. Paranormal
5. Super Natural-(reincarnation)

They can all provide an explanation with out justification the philosophers greatest enemys

Note: 1 My brother follows Ayn Rands phylosophies as an Objectivist

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#372187 - 02/18/09 01:42 PM The Strong are not lessened by associations. [Re: S810]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
With much do respect to the CoS the simple fact that it is an organization is part of the mechanism that kills individuality, otherwise there is no purpose for a hierarchy. I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality. So in no way was that intended as a shot at the organization. Just an observation.


Sorry but that just does not make sense to me.

If a boy joins the Boy Scouts of America he can both feel that he is a part of an organization and feel pride in the positive qualities of that organization while learning skills and having experiences that empower and further mature him as an individual.

Joining an organization is not necessarily like merging with the Borg (from the Star Trek movies)!

Joining an organization that revolves around a celebration of personal power and individual strengths (such as the Church of Satan) certainly does not turn one into a mindless lemur!

I can see where avoiding joining a pro-individual organization such as the Church of Satan could easily stem from personal insecurities of one kind or another, however.

In such a case it would be entirely understandable that the insecure "lone wolf" could feel a need to denigrate joining the pack. Like the fox who could not actually reach the grapes, he could decide they must really be sour.

But that is just an excuse.

For the emotionally secure and truly independent "lone wolf" I doubt that there would ever be any such concern.

The truly independent and self-secure "lone wolf" would never assume that merely joining an organization would in any manner lessen his own sense of individuality.

It would be viewed as only another set of tools to use and contacts to enjoy.

It is who you already are that determines what happens when you associate with any group of individuals.

Salt in water dissolves.

Granite does not.

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#372190 - 02/18/09 01:54 PM It is still useless for the individual. [Re: S810]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12408
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
I do agree that the popular notion of reincarnation is of no use on this physical plane,other than to help keep the herd in line (DUMB) however i was also stating another angle at which to approach. That angle being what i percieve to be obvious, that atomically we all sort of recycle. This is in no way to say that any memory is retained at a higher level than possibly cellular. On an extremely small scale.


Your feces, urine, skin cells, fingernail parings, and hair clippings are not "you".

These are shed by your body regularly.

So what?

That is not "survival" in any way, shape, or form.

Reincarnation is offered as a means to somehow suggest your survival.

Recyling trash and "cellular memories" are useless if your memories are wiped out.

And you can take this to any "plane" you want to.

If your memories are gone, you are not there anymore.

If you doubt this, just ask a victim of senile dementia.

But be prepared for the victim to break into weeping if he can even grasp what you have just asked him.

Reincarnation is identical to your self-destruction.

It sounds good unless you look at exactly what it really is.

For the individual, it is nothing.

And, my friend, something is alway better than nothing when it comes to trying to survive!

Just my opinion. wink

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#372193 - 02/18/09 02:01 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
The non-joiner argument.

Not joining the Church of Satan because you feel no desire or need is fine and you can easily use the principles of Satanism without joining.

The issue is that organizations and institutions are unavoidable in human existence. You will be employed by a company and like it or not that company will have an image or reputation that may or may not be ideal to you. Of course a company pays for your time while an organization like the CoS you have to pay for membership (one lump sum for lifetime membership). But both do offer you personal benefits, be they physical (money) or mental (pride).

I have been a member of many organizations, all of which I am very proud of. The Marine Corps, engineering school, IEEE, The American Legion, a few gun clubs, International Krav Maga Federation and other Krav Maga studios, and a few other organizations and companies. They have all provided me certain benefits that I gained greatly from even if I happened to move on.

Some of these organizations did not share my personal agendas or ideals. The American Legion stands firm in its belief in Christian values yet offers many benefits to military veterans. The Marine Corps is a very collective organization where the Corps comes first ("Corps, Country, and God" was their saying). However, the Corps taught me many valuable things and paid for me to travel and blow stuff up.

The Church of Satan, in my opinion, is set on a higher level of benefit to me than all those other organizations. It is my core principles and my inner fire that drives me. All the others were attachments of improvement, not the foundation of my essences.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#372232 - 02/18/09 10:03 PM Re: The Strong are not lessened by associations. [Re: Nemo]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
The truth is that i haven't discussed it thoroughly with my wife. (avoiding;insecure? not so much)

I grew up at a very young age as i am still quite a young man(31), so decision making comes very easy, not always so quickly. Depending on the stakes of course.

I've always been who I am, so "SATANIST" is what others call it. I actually grew up in a Jehovah Witness household til about 11 when my family broke up. My father was actually an elder. He also acted as a Ministerial Servant within his organization. So you could say I was privy to insider info just because of him. I noticed pretty much right away it was bullshit. Something to do with prayer NOT working. But, i was also expected to do things like speak in front of large congregations at a young age. I was 5 when i gave my first public talk.... (the stage was powerful, i liked that part)

So as Diciplin stated, yes, I also understand the value of taking from organizations. Like the kid in "A Bronx Tale" (Robert DeNiro, Chaz Palmonteri), i sort of got two educations one from school, and one from the street.

The initial thread was about something entirely different. But as i have had happen more times than not, the Ladies and Gentlemen who run this site bring the knowledge that you just cant find in any other group. Where usually' there is only one or two stars and everyone else is the back up cast or extras.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#372234 - 02/18/09 10:13 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Discipline]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
BTW my grandmother just died two weeks ago, and at the end she got dementia pretty hard. She was always such a beautifully colorful person in life. So it was sort of fun to watch her revert to earlier times. It brought me some fond memories. So i get that as well and I don't disagree. Her memory was definately gone. I will miss her. I sometimes feel the same when read LaVey, I wish i could have met him.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#372235 - 02/18/09 10:29 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I am not sure how that relates to my post.

>>So it was sort of fun to watch her revert to earlier times.

To watch her lose her sense of identity? It is rather sad really. I am not sure why you found that fun.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#372260 - 02/19/09 01:30 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:
I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality.


Just pointing out something that I haven't seen anyone else mention: Satanists are alpha wolves? Sure, sometimes. But it ain't necessarily so.

Feel like a Star Trek analogy? Not all of us are Captain Kirks sitting proudly up there in the captain's chair at the top of the clock. I'm more like Scotty. Sure, I CAN take command of a situation or group when necessary, but it's not something that comes naturally. Most of the time I'm content to let someone else have the command chair while I work my own miracles in the engine room, over there on the right-hand side of the clock.

Satanists can be found all over the clock face.

-Chess

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#372268 - 02/19/09 03:08 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Chess]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Chess
Quote:
I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality.


Just pointing out something that I haven't seen anyone else mention: Satanists are alpha wolves? Sure, sometimes. But it ain't necessarily so.

Feel like a Star Trek analogy? Not all of us are Captain Kirks sitting proudly up there in the captain's chair at the top of the clock. I'm more like Scotty. Sure, I CAN take command of a situation or group when necessary, but it's not something that comes naturally. Most of the time I'm content to let someone else have the command chair while I work my own miracles in the engine room, over there on the right-hand side of the clock.

Satanists can be found all over the clock face.

-Chess


I cannot remember from which writing I read this...but I believe Dr. LaVey said it was better to be second in command.
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#372286 - 02/19/09 06:26 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Chess]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I'd say that all Satanists are staunch individualists, so because a lot of us tend to be very firm and determined when it comes to doing what we want to do and getting what we want to have--whether openly or more covertly--some folks might erroneously assume that we're all alpha dogs, when a lot of us are at our happiest and best when we get to lead a pack of one.

Roho, some psychological studies have actually found that second-in-command is actually a much more rewarding, much less stressful position to be in for many people. Being alpha dog or the big boss comes with a lot of responsibility and stress, and it tends to wear a lot of people down, especially those who don't have the right "alpha dog" personality type.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#372339 - 02/20/09 04:52 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: TrojZyr]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
At the end of the day, a leader has to keep those just under him in 2nd, 3rd rank etc, happy or he will get a (literal or figurative) dagger in the back. His power is dependent on ensuring those underneath him are at least happy enough to support him...

Better yet to have all the power and influence but remain in the shadows. Let someone else be the figurehead - many of the worlds true powerbrokers are not widely known by the herd. Highly advanced defacto Satanists indeed!

Your signature sums it up very succinctly Witch TrojZyr: "The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all."
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"Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"

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#372358 - 02/20/09 08:21 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Chess]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
I would agree.

I'm very comfortable deferring to competent leadership, and executing the demands on me.

They have to earn it though. wink

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#372366 - 02/20/09 09:08 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Zaftig]
ruraldean Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 227
Loc: England
On the question of reincarnation I remain a non-believer. The life I enjoy after death will not (in my opinion) be unlike the one I enjoyed prior to conception. I've heard (and read in this thread) the term "everything goes black" when referring to death, especially from those who have no vision of the afterlife. No, it doesn't go black - to recognise "black" one has to have some form of consciousness, which, being dead, one won't have. Death to me is a total cessation. If I'm lucky I will never know I'm dead, nor miss my loved ones, nor harbour regrets. In death, time ceases (and possibly only in death).

I do, however, have another theory, based on personal experience:

A couple of years ago I went to Tangiers, which for those who have never been is a shambolic hell-hole of a place. On approaching one of the markets there I experienced the most vivid deja vu experiences of my life, and this was entirely driven by smell. The smell of the spices, dead chickens and general waste heightened my senses like never before - I had been there in the past. Except I never had. Later, whilst walking around the town, I became sure that I knew just what was around the next corner. I was right, insofar as I expected more of the same and got it, but my familiarity with the place seemed uncanny.

Last year, I was eating in a restaurant in Marbella in Spain and I ate something I've never tried before. The flavour triggered the same memories, and they were so vivid that tears streamed down my face. My son, Warlock Dencappo was present at the time and will confirm the truth of what I say. This is an embarrassing confession as it was all a bit odd at the time, and everyone (including me) was worried I'd lost the plot.

No I don't believe in past lives, but did I experience some form of Genetic Memory, the same thing that enables the offspring of a bird to fly unaccompanied to the same tree it's parent landed on, half way around the world?

My father was stationed in Egypt during his National Service in the 50's and my grandfather was an officer in the royal Navy during both wars and was extraordinarily well travelled. No doubt many of my ancestors got around a bit. Has anyone passed on this particular group of memories in the same way my short temper, love of books and film star looks have been passed on?

I'm just saying...
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Hail Satan!

"The pipe draws wisdom from the lips of the philosopher, and shuts up the mouth of the foolish; it generates a style of conversation, contemplative, thoughtful, benevolent, and unaffected..."

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#372376 - 02/20/09 11:46 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Discipline]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
it was fun because before she lost it all the way, she thought i was my dad. And sometimes she would tell me stuff like "do my homework" thats all. It reminded me of when i was a kid and she lived with us.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#480659 - 09/17/12 03:18 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: LucifersBlood]
Mendesius Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 4
The reincarnation of self is physical for many "ripists", this reborn in Leviathan's body to eat blood and flesh for survival, they breathe suffocates in dark rooms. rip

For this reason we need a Religion of Satanism to live "normal" when we die.
skull


Edited by Mendesius (09/17/12 04:55 AM)
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