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#371943 - 02/16/09 07:55 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Unknown]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
any arguement could be made for or against the idea of reincarnation, hence the on going debate.


Some arguments are just more retarded than others.




More importantly, they are a colossal waste of time.
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#371954 - 02/16/09 10:06 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I disagree with you on that notion..now let's argue about it. devilchili
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#371986 - 02/16/09 09:02 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Unknown]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
so, then the simple answer would be that it is not inline with satanic doctrine. as far as it being a waste of time is in the mind of the beholder. satanism is about the individual, which is also why not all of us join cos.
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"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#371992 - 02/16/09 11:37 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12537
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
satanism is about the individual, which is also why not all of us join cos.


Every single member of the Church of Satan I have met is an individual.

Starting with Anton LaVey.

wink

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#372016 - 02/17/09 07:35 AM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Nemo]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
Originally Posted By: Nemo
Every single member of the Church of Satan I have met is an individual.

Starting with Anton LaVey.


Coincidence? wink

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#372179 - 02/18/09 01:23 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Nemo]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
I am sure that is the case. (every single member of CoS you have met is an individual.) My point albeit a simple one was that if the arguement was so useless and you had already adequetly answered there was no reason to add. I do agree that the popular notion of reincarnation is of no use on this physical plane,other than to help keep the herd in line (DUMB) however i was also stating another angle at which to approach. That angle being what i percieve to be obvious, that atomically we all sort of recycle. This is in no way to say that any memory is retained at a higher level than possibly cellular. On an extremely small scale. "it depends on what the definition of the word is, IS." William Jefferson Clinton.

With much do respect to the CoS the simple fact that it is an organization is part of the mechanism that kills individuality, otherwise there is no purpose for a hierarchy. I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality. So in no way was that intended as a shot at the organization. Just an observation.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#372184 - 02/18/09 01:30 PM Re: Olga [Re: Hedonist]
TranquilChaos Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 42
Loc: USA IA
Hello individuals this is my first post/introduction here at LttD and I must admit that these arguments are at the very least interesting. I like to think of myself as a philosopher, I took philosophy in college and have been exploring many facets of it myself frequenting my brother Adams (note 1) response. (Not the same Adam from the HOLEY Bible)

Since I was at the ripe age of 10, two years after I realized that I had always been a Satanist 21 years ago, I would spend a couple nights a week exploring epistemology, morality, ect. until six o’ clock in the morning.

I think the first thing to establish is reincarnations definition. After viewing several sources three definitions remain consistent with North America those are as follows

1. The belief that after death the soul is reborn in another body
2. An instance of rebirth in another body
3. Reappearance in a new form of a principle or idea

It is clear that the first two definitions have been discussed the third how ever is irrelevant to our discussion. That would be the definition to describe Jered the Subway spokes person being "reincarnated" from someone who didn’t indulge enough in pride to someone who learn the value of indulging oneself in every thing with balance whether he was consciously aware of it or not.

That being said I do have to add a few things to the arguments for the sake of logical deduction. Regarding the first definition
1. Knowledge is recognizing the patterns in the environment we exist in. i.e. dreams vs. reality the physics of each are different so we treat them differently
2. Science is the documentation of those patterns.
3. Memory is a compilation of experiences stored in a “physically grown” synapses of the brain Ref: http://www.innovationsreport.de/html/berichte/studien/bericht-56007.html
4. Individuality is derived by our individual experiences.
5. Once the physically grown synapses no longer exist, neither does the individual.

As previously mentioned (until there is a change in the available knowledge) there is no REASON believe that any level of consciousness can possibly transfer from one entity to another. Anything beyond that is hope. You would best be spending your time actually performing the research proving one way or the other and/or sharing what you have already learned about the topic.

As humans I see our greatest flaw being that we naturally seek the easiest path. Unfortunately the easiest path is rarely the right/correct path. Because the human ego is so great and seeking the truth is rarely easy, it is with great rarity that I find individuals that are capable of pulling away from the five scapegoats of Ignorance.
1. Government conspiracies
2. Gods-(reincarnation)
3. Extraterrestrials
4. Paranormal
5. Super Natural-(reincarnation)

They can all provide an explanation with out justification the philosophers greatest enemys

Note: 1 My brother follows Ayn Rands phylosophies as an Objectivist

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#372187 - 02/18/09 01:42 PM The Strong are not lessened by associations. [Re: S810]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12537
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
With much do respect to the CoS the simple fact that it is an organization is part of the mechanism that kills individuality, otherwise there is no purpose for a hierarchy. I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality. So in no way was that intended as a shot at the organization. Just an observation.


Sorry but that just does not make sense to me.

If a boy joins the Boy Scouts of America he can both feel that he is a part of an organization and feel pride in the positive qualities of that organization while learning skills and having experiences that empower and further mature him as an individual.

Joining an organization is not necessarily like merging with the Borg (from the Star Trek movies)!

Joining an organization that revolves around a celebration of personal power and individual strengths (such as the Church of Satan) certainly does not turn one into a mindless lemur!

I can see where avoiding joining a pro-individual organization such as the Church of Satan could easily stem from personal insecurities of one kind or another, however.

In such a case it would be entirely understandable that the insecure "lone wolf" could feel a need to denigrate joining the pack. Like the fox who could not actually reach the grapes, he could decide they must really be sour.

But that is just an excuse.

For the emotionally secure and truly independent "lone wolf" I doubt that there would ever be any such concern.

The truly independent and self-secure "lone wolf" would never assume that merely joining an organization would in any manner lessen his own sense of individuality.

It would be viewed as only another set of tools to use and contacts to enjoy.

It is who you already are that determines what happens when you associate with any group of individuals.

Salt in water dissolves.

Granite does not.

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#372190 - 02/18/09 01:54 PM It is still useless for the individual. [Re: S810]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12537
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
I do agree that the popular notion of reincarnation is of no use on this physical plane,other than to help keep the herd in line (DUMB) however i was also stating another angle at which to approach. That angle being what i percieve to be obvious, that atomically we all sort of recycle. This is in no way to say that any memory is retained at a higher level than possibly cellular. On an extremely small scale.


Your feces, urine, skin cells, fingernail parings, and hair clippings are not "you".

These are shed by your body regularly.

So what?

That is not "survival" in any way, shape, or form.

Reincarnation is offered as a means to somehow suggest your survival.

Recyling trash and "cellular memories" are useless if your memories are wiped out.

And you can take this to any "plane" you want to.

If your memories are gone, you are not there anymore.

If you doubt this, just ask a victim of senile dementia.

But be prepared for the victim to break into weeping if he can even grasp what you have just asked him.

Reincarnation is identical to your self-destruction.

It sounds good unless you look at exactly what it really is.

For the individual, it is nothing.

And, my friend, something is alway better than nothing when it comes to trying to survive!

Just my opinion. wink

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#372193 - 02/18/09 02:01 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
The non-joiner argument.

Not joining the Church of Satan because you feel no desire or need is fine and you can easily use the principles of Satanism without joining.

The issue is that organizations and institutions are unavoidable in human existence. You will be employed by a company and like it or not that company will have an image or reputation that may or may not be ideal to you. Of course a company pays for your time while an organization like the CoS you have to pay for membership (one lump sum for lifetime membership). But both do offer you personal benefits, be they physical (money) or mental (pride).

I have been a member of many organizations, all of which I am very proud of. The Marine Corps, engineering school, IEEE, The American Legion, a few gun clubs, International Krav Maga Federation and other Krav Maga studios, and a few other organizations and companies. They have all provided me certain benefits that I gained greatly from even if I happened to move on.

Some of these organizations did not share my personal agendas or ideals. The American Legion stands firm in its belief in Christian values yet offers many benefits to military veterans. The Marine Corps is a very collective organization where the Corps comes first ("Corps, Country, and God" was their saying). However, the Corps taught me many valuable things and paid for me to travel and blow stuff up.

The Church of Satan, in my opinion, is set on a higher level of benefit to me than all those other organizations. It is my core principles and my inner fire that drives me. All the others were attachments of improvement, not the foundation of my essences.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#372232 - 02/18/09 10:03 PM Re: The Strong are not lessened by associations. [Re: Nemo]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
The truth is that i haven't discussed it thoroughly with my wife. (avoiding;insecure? not so much)

I grew up at a very young age as i am still quite a young man(31), so decision making comes very easy, not always so quickly. Depending on the stakes of course.

I've always been who I am, so "SATANIST" is what others call it. I actually grew up in a Jehovah Witness household til about 11 when my family broke up. My father was actually an elder. He also acted as a Ministerial Servant within his organization. So you could say I was privy to insider info just because of him. I noticed pretty much right away it was bullshit. Something to do with prayer NOT working. But, i was also expected to do things like speak in front of large congregations at a young age. I was 5 when i gave my first public talk.... (the stage was powerful, i liked that part)

So as Diciplin stated, yes, I also understand the value of taking from organizations. Like the kid in "A Bronx Tale" (Robert DeNiro, Chaz Palmonteri), i sort of got two educations one from school, and one from the street.

The initial thread was about something entirely different. But as i have had happen more times than not, the Ladies and Gentlemen who run this site bring the knowledge that you just cant find in any other group. Where usually' there is only one or two stars and everyone else is the back up cast or extras.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#372234 - 02/18/09 10:13 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Discipline]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
BTW my grandmother just died two weeks ago, and at the end she got dementia pretty hard. She was always such a beautifully colorful person in life. So it was sort of fun to watch her revert to earlier times. It brought me some fond memories. So i get that as well and I don't disagree. Her memory was definately gone. I will miss her. I sometimes feel the same when read LaVey, I wish i could have met him.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#372235 - 02/18/09 10:29 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I am not sure how that relates to my post.

>>So it was sort of fun to watch her revert to earlier times.

To watch her lose her sense of identity? It is rather sad really. I am not sure why you found that fun.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#372260 - 02/19/09 01:30 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: S810]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Quote:
I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality.


Just pointing out something that I haven't seen anyone else mention: Satanists are alpha wolves? Sure, sometimes. But it ain't necessarily so.

Feel like a Star Trek analogy? Not all of us are Captain Kirks sitting proudly up there in the captain's chair at the top of the clock. I'm more like Scotty. Sure, I CAN take command of a situation or group when necessary, but it's not something that comes naturally. Most of the time I'm content to let someone else have the command chair while I work my own miracles in the engine room, over there on the right-hand side of the clock.

Satanists can be found all over the clock face.

-Chess

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#372268 - 02/19/09 03:08 PM Re: Introduction / Philosophical question [Re: Chess]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Chess
Quote:
I do understand,with that being said, CoS is in a unique position due to the fact that it attracts the alpha wolf personality.


Just pointing out something that I haven't seen anyone else mention: Satanists are alpha wolves? Sure, sometimes. But it ain't necessarily so.

Feel like a Star Trek analogy? Not all of us are Captain Kirks sitting proudly up there in the captain's chair at the top of the clock. I'm more like Scotty. Sure, I CAN take command of a situation or group when necessary, but it's not something that comes naturally. Most of the time I'm content to let someone else have the command chair while I work my own miracles in the engine room, over there on the right-hand side of the clock.

Satanists can be found all over the clock face.

-Chess


I cannot remember from which writing I read this...but I believe Dr. LaVey said it was better to be second in command.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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