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#373075 - 02/28/09 12:54 AM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Garm]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Mímir

I really, really, admire those who stay professional and treat even the child molestors, rapists, etc, equally to the "good guys".

I would think that even the cops are under the rules of treating everyone equally (as much as firefighters, EMT, etc) and doing what they can to save those who are in trouble no matter what their rap-sheet look like (or dont look like). And they are under constant observation by the public so if they use a little to much force when taking someone down or whatever they will get in trouble. I would think in that way that their job might be a little harder since they are hated by many.


I don't think that treating a child molestor, mugger or other assorted scum neutrally is in anyone's best interests.

It's just another example of a sick and unnatural society that ties the hands of the men and women who keep the lid on the garbage can, and then wonders why the streets are unsafe to walk at night...

Fucking egalitarian bullshit! mad Armed Guards on every street corner is what we need, Dr. Lavey was right on the money with this one...
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"Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"

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#373081 - 02/28/09 02:47 AM Re: Police & The Church of Satan [Re: Jake Sullivan]
GMT Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/19/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Virginia
Hello.

It's all about what you do and how you do it when you are wearing that uniform.
If you are trustworthy, honest, and capable--Your affiliations don't matter.






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#373089 - 02/28/09 04:55 AM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Hedonist]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3415
On that note, you are incorrect. It is in our best interest for policemen to treat criminals neutrally (ostensibly, they do, in reality, they more-or-less do).

It is not law enforcement's job to judge a particular person or crime on the scene, but enforce the law. It's set up that way to eliminate personal bias towards, say, a controversial religion that few people understand and know only the media hype about it (hint: Satanism).

If you give license to law enforcement to judge immediately, then you put your self at risk, if they happen to know that you (or another) are Satanists and automatically consider you one of those pedophiliac assholes you rail against because of your religious affiliation.

The courts decide if punishment is justified, not police, to avoid mistakes like that.

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#373140 - 02/28/09 03:42 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Zaftig]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
I do understanding what you are saying. In cases where there is NOT iron-cast evidence, and the accused is a respectable and responsible member of the community - neutrality is a must for the preservation of social order. But there are many more cases where I feel justice would better be served by the police making a reasonable judgement call on the spot for the two situations originally described by Mimirs post that caused by outburst...

One is the police being in trouble for using excessive force on those who resist arrest or general scumbags that make life unpleasant for the responsible members of society (i.e. beggars, drunks, kids caught doing graffiti, etc) - to which I feel that nothing is a better cure than a truncheon stuck where the sun don't shine!

But the other topic (though related) was gentle treatment of those where a previous investigation has confirmed that they have a perpertrator of a heinous crime.

To give you an example of what I mean - I recall reading a fictional account of the police catching a man red handed who had serially killed and tortured children in a given city. He was taken into custody normally, but as they reached the elevator between the entrance to the police station and where perps are processed, a large number of police began to pile on in... The trip to the bottom floor, which usually takes only a few seconds, was unusually long and delayed... And by the time the doors finally opened and the police came out - the perp was in a sorry, sorry state... whistle

This is justice, or at least the beginning of it...

As to the courts deciding the outcome - the law system itself is more likely to get caught up in its own bullshit so that natural justice will be obfuscated, at least until the criminal is thrown in with other inmates and natural justice takes over again.. Unfortunatley, what happens these days is that such criminals are often 'protected' from other inmates if their crimes are especially heinous - at great expense to the taxpayer... Such a waste of MY money...

To sum up my views on this - if water is allowed to naturally seek its own level, responsible members of society are treated one way by law enforcment while pieces of human shit are treated entirely differently. The current status quo is one in which the bleeding hearts have elevated the rights of the pieces of shit to the same or a HIGHER level as responsible members of society, putting these fuckers on a pedestal. The smug human rubbish love it and thrive, while the responsible members of society are increasingly under siege - and in many states and countries cannot defend effectively as the law comes down harder on them than on someone who has 'had a hard life'.

What is needed is a system of stratification that allows the cops to do their job with more leeway, and give the toilet a good flush when its needed... skull

I hope this states my posititon a little clearer, as the original post was very brief and addressed two topics in one.

Respectfully,

Hedonist.
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"Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"

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#373143 - 02/28/09 04:06 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Hedonist]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3580
Loc: Calgary
The thing is, the police are just human beings and are prone to the same human sorts of mistakes. You give them the power to shit-kick whoever they please just because they deemed the individual in need of it, and you create all sorts of problems. What if some kid decides to mouth off a cop, then? "I saw him stealing something, so I beat the shit out of him." And it's the kid's word against the cop's.

This is why you need a structured judicial system, and not just a bunch of Judge Dredd's running around blowing everybody away. Sure, I'd love more then anything to see a rapist or a child molester get what is coming to him in the form of brutal enforcement, but the fact is, if there is not a system around to PROVE he is one before hand, he might just be another Joe on the street. You get the best and worst of both worlds. A great deal of criminals are put away, some of them get what they deserve, some of them don't. I am sure there are plenty of people in jail for silly reasons, or for crimes they didn't commit, as well. Human systems make human mistakes, unfortunately. I respect the police for what they do, as they get shit on everytime they DON'T come through. But these are human beings, working a job. Plain and simple. Many factors unfortunately come into play.

I find it hard to take the "kill 'em all" stance regarding this issue. Eye for an eye where it is merited, but it is important to look deeper into the situation before you start swinging the axe.

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#373145 - 02/28/09 04:36 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: TheDegenerate]
Branwyn Offline


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 92
Loc: Montana, USA
Tempting as it is sometimes to just give someone what they've got coming to them, when you're in uniform the consequences are not worth it. For yourself, you can lose your job, lose your credibility, get sued, get attacked yourself... and if that asshole survived whatever you were doing to him, he's suddenly got a defense that he can use in court... that he was abused by the system... and could potentially use it to escape conviction and justice. If you're a random citizen and you attack someone who deserves it, that's one thing. But in uniform you take the whole system down with you.

A change in the system that would allow more freedom of judgment for officers regarding the amount of force they can use would only work if all cops were intelligent and responsible enough to use it well. Many are, but many are not. It's a great ideal, but it would be stupid to ignore the problems associated with people as they are.

~Stalker
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#373158 - 02/28/09 08:30 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Branwyn]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
Valid points, but I still feel the 'old school' and unofficial way of dealing with things worked better than the current 'kid gloves' method...

In Australia for example, there are areas of Sydney were Lebanese gang members had become so emboldened that they would throw bricks at the patrols when they went by, and the police would do nothing but keep on going. An older cop who was in the car with the younger officers decided enough was enough and did things the old way, in his own words:

"Call me stupid, call me a dinosaur, but I made sure that day that at least one person in the group that threw the brick was arrested. I began by approaching the group just as that magistrate had lectured me and the other police involved in the Croydon search warrant. I simply asked who threw the brick. I was greeted with abuse and threats. I then reverted to the old ways of policing. I grabbed the nearest male and convinced him that it was he who had thrown the brick. His brave mates did nothing. By the time we arrived at the police station, this young fool had become compliant, apologetic and so afraid that he kept crying."
Reference: http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/2006/crime-australia.htm

This simple act put the gangs back at the bottom of the food chain - because it was an act of natural law...

What I am trying to say is that there are (to my mind) two ways of looking at it; either create a formal recognition of stratification where those who DO NOT contribute to society are NOT citizens, and had better watch their step as they have minimal rights (preferred IMHO, but utoptian) - or for simply less scrutiny of what the police have to do to keep the lid on the garbage can (easier, more realistic).

Oft times the older, more informal ways WORK the best because they 'talk' to the criminal element in a language they understand - i.e. overwhelming might. Take that away or make it too soft, and it is the responsible members of society who have to pay the price...

Kids used to be scared of the cops once, and that was a healthy thing. Now they 'know their rights' and because the system pounces on cops who gives some mouthy little prick a black eye: lawlessness prevails...

...At least, for a little while... coopdevil

Respectfully,

- Hedonist
_________________________
"Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"

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#373165 - 02/28/09 10:52 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Hedonist]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
Satanism does not condone criminal behavior.

Vigilantism is a crime. Whether the vigilante wears a badge or not. In our legal system, detainees are to be treated as if innocent until they are found guilty in a court of law. Then they are to be subject only to legally proscribed punishments, and none more.

Speculating about how our legal system might otherwise be constituted goes well beyond the scope of Satanism. As our legal system actually is, right now, what you are suggesting is illegal.

I would suggest it might be more tactfully discussed in the Politics forum, Downstairs, but that is for the mods to decide, and I'm not a mod.
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#373168 - 02/28/09 11:11 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: reprobate]
Ebenezer Scrooge Offline


Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 140
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: reprobate
In our legal system, detainees are to be treated as if innocent until they are found guilty in a court of law. Then they are to be subject only to legally proscribed punishments, and none more.


I've always had a problem with that whole "Innocent until proven guilty" thing. I mean, if you're arrested and detained and not allowed to leave until they know you are innocent, and or have nothing to charge you with, isn't that really "Guilty until proven innocent" or at least "Presumed guilty until proven innocent"?

I've never been arrested, but I have known people who have been and I have known an innocent person who was arrested as well, and all of whom where treated as if they where guilty.

Maybe I am just to much of a cynic.





Edited by Ebenezer Scrooge (03/01/09 12:13 AM)
Edit Reason: removed idiotic mistake due to misreading
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"If they'd rather die, they had better do it and decrease the surplus population."-Ebenezer Scrooge

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#373171 - 02/28/09 11:43 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Ebenezer Scrooge]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
Warlock Reprobate: point taken and understood, I will respectfully bow out of this particular thread accordingly.

Cordially,

- Hedonist
_________________________
"Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"

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#373172 - 02/28/09 11:55 PM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Ebenezer Scrooge]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I've always had a problem with that whole "Innocent until proven guilty" thing. I mean, if you're arrested and detained and not allowed to leave until they know you are innocent, and or have nothing to charge you with, isn't that really "Guilty until proven innocent" or at least "Presumed guilty until proven innocent"?

It's not the job of law enforcement to decide whether someone is guilty or not. That's for the courts. It's the job of law enforcement to present their suspect and their reasons for holding that suspect, so that the court can make its decision. Therefore, law enforcement treats a detainee in a manner consistent with how they ought to treat someone whom they suspect, on reasonable grounds, of being guilty of a crime, but someone whom they are not competent to judge on behalf of the public, or to punish until instructed by the public.

Quote:
Do you have to have the laws on hand? I would actually love to read those. I like to read laws, its a hobby of mine and I actually didn't know about what you mentioned until just now.

If you lynch someone at your own discretion, it's murder. If you beat someone, it's battery. Any time you take the law into your own hands to carry out a punishment not proscribed by a court of law, you're running afoul of whatever part of the Criminal Code defines the particular act of violence you're carrying out. Doesn't matter whether you wear a badge or not.
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#373173 - 03/01/09 12:10 AM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: reprobate]
Ebenezer Scrooge Offline


Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 140
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: reprobate
If you lynch someone at your own discretion, it's murder. If you beat someone, it's battery. Any time you take the law into your own hands to carry out a punishment not proscribed by a court of law, you're running afoul of whatever part of the Criminal Code defines the particular act of violence you're carrying out. Doesn't matter whether you wear a badge or not.


I misread the last part of the first post, I read it to be that the discussion of how the law should or shouldn't be was illegal. I am sorry, I feel like a dumb shit now. Obviously vigilantism is illegal. My bad.
_________________________
"If they'd rather die, they had better do it and decrease the surplus population."-Ebenezer Scrooge

“I don't mean to sound bitter,cold,or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”-Bill Hicks

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#373175 - 03/01/09 12:37 AM Re: 3rd and 6th Satanic Sins [Re: Ebenezer Scrooge]
Jake Sullivan Offline


Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
Reprobate hit the nail on the head.

The job of the Officer is to ensure the safety of the community. To obstruct any malicious behaviour that may pose a threat to the general public. It is not the job of the Officer to head out a verdict on behalf of the public. After all, it's our community, too.

If it was the job of each Officer to enforce judgment, you'll find most people convicted or even presumed guilty of a crime would be handled in a non-professional manner. In order to succeed in this role; you need to detach yourself from any emotional involvement and assess the situation without judgment.

If you're a Police Officer and you act on instinct straight away, you'll find yourself up shit creek without a paddle. You'll also find that any form of vigilante behaviour is heavily discouraged by Law Enforcement agencies. Not only is it illegal, but it also contributes to the problem - not the solution.
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Smoking kills. Just like being alone with your mother in law.

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#373456 - 03/03/09 07:43 PM Re: Police & The Church of Satan [Re: Zaftig]
Ashtar Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
Ok, but just because someone is a Christian does not mean that are inept policemen or firemen. Their personal religious choices have nothing to do with their competency provided they received the training and are deemed fit by their superiors. Do you have a specific examples of where it could conflict?
I think paranoia related to religious people (more of the Abrahamic nature) is not so much a fear of it interfering with their observed behaviour. Naturally, they're not going to let it interfere when they can be held accountable for it.

I think it is moreso what people do when they are not looking, or how strongly they try to fulfill their duties. Someone may normally be a professional, but perhaps if they dislike someone they are supposed to serve (save) because they are a satanist, perhaps they may not run as quickly, or perhaps they may hesitate a moment longer.

It'd be more rare to have someone totally shirk their duties or deny service, but more imaginable that someone might not do their best at their job to help someone they don't like. Not everyone is totally professional and sometimes emotions affect how they act (even when it doesn't affect if they eventually act). They are taught to treat all citizens they save equally, but personal biases do affect that.

It's no different from how in hospitals, people might value saving the life of a young person over an old person, they're not supposed to do that but many people's personal philosophy is to prioritize that way.

The same might apply: if a satanist was attacked by a christian and in the course of self defense, injured them while receiving injuries themself, a person coming on the scene and not knowing the context might see one wearing a cross and another a pentacle and this along with other visual factors could subconsciously influence a bias in their decisionmaking process.

I think most people can resist their biases and remain mostly professional, but the fear of it isn't groundless, it just tends to be inflated.
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