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#374490 - 03/12/09 07:39 AM Iron Youth
LoneNights Offline



Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Japan
I have been rereading the Satanic Scriptures and came across the article entitled “Iron Youth” for the second time. As me and my partner have been talking more seriously about a real future together the topic of children inevitably came up and I have started to think along the line of what type of education I want my children to have.
Now of course the public schooling system seems woefully inadequate so not surprisingly I am thinking that like my mother did to me I would suggest books to my children and even challenge them to give me essays on them. So my question for those of you with children or even just your own ideas on the matter is: What books, music, and other educational devices to you personally recommend for expanding the mind of a growing child?
Now I know that this is a highly personal topic and choice but I am sure that there are many books that I have not even read myself that could be of use to me in future planning or even adding to my own personal library. Thanks in advance for any of your suggestions and thoughts on this topic.
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People are so endlessly stupid that it frustrates me like an angry autistic in a really small wool sweater. Josie_Gallows

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#374513 - 03/12/09 11:02 AM Re: Iron Youth [Re: LoneNights]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Hello...
I have a son, and share your concerns.
If I may make one suggestion...your question may be a little too vague to produce any meaningful results. I may be wrong; but, you know...
This is not a pitch; but should you be interested, VIP membership would make available areas especially designed for longer conversations on these matters.
Hopefully, someone will prove me wrong and have a great reading list...which I would read with interest.

EDIT...I guess this was a pitch.


Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (03/12/09 11:07 AM)
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#374514 - 03/12/09 11:10 AM Re: Iron Youth [Re: LoneNights]
TranquilChaos Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 44
Loc: USA IA
Well, I have 4 children and what I’ve learned so far is that intelligence (rather perceived intelligence) comes and goes as the children gain and lose interest in books. Subject matter that interests them is a sure fire way to keep them reading so "ask them" is my philosophy. Beyond the books however, I believe its tenfold intelligences value to instill understanding.

What I mean by this is although knowledge derived from books and resources are very valuable they become useless when not accompanied by wisdom (the understanding of how it all interacts). I push experience (unintervened whenever safe/possible) to provide them the opportunities to acquire this “wisdom”.

Age provides the OPPORTUNITY to have experiences

Experiences provides the OPPORTUNITY to learn

Learning provides the OPPORTUNITY to grow

AKA: “The elderly demand some respect. Just because they are older doesn’t warrant them experts.”

But wouldn’t you rather be an expert that just a perceived one and want the same thing for your children.

It is the difference between Kim Peek (Rain Man) and Bill Gates

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#374524 - 03/12/09 01:12 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: LoneNights]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
Very broad question. I read to my children the books of my childhood. Swiss Family Robinson, Treasure Island, Dr. Seuss. First I read and then when they are old enough they read to me. I try to stay with age appropriate material as i know my younger children will not understand much of the reading material.

First I hope to have them grasp reading first. My oldest is 8 and she reads at a high school level. She really has no peers in her school as far as reading comprehension. And as much as possible I encourage her to read what interests her.

My daughter has almost as extensive a library as myself, of course the content and reading level is much different.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#374560 - 03/12/09 07:25 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: LoneNights]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: LoneNights
I have been rereading the Satanic Scriptures and came across the article entitled “Iron Youth” for the second time. As me and my partner have been talking more seriously about a real future together the topic of children inevitably came up and I have started to think along the line of what type of education I want my children to have.
Now of course the public schooling system seems woefully inadequate so not surprisingly I am thinking that like my mother did to me I would suggest books to my children and even challenge them to give me essays on them. So my question for those of you with children or even just your own ideas on the matter is: What books, music, and other educational devices to you personally recommend for expanding the mind of a growing child?
Now I know that this is a highly personal topic and choice but I am sure that there are many books that I have not even read myself that could be of use to me in future planning or even adding to my own personal library. Thanks in advance for any of your suggestions and thoughts on this topic.



Even though I'm very young, I've actually been thinking about this question quite a bit myself. As I stated in my introduction, I feel books have been my primary source of education; my schooling after a certain age was more or less a distraction to real learning. I've attempted to create lists of literary works I want to pass onto my children (or any young people I have responsibility over) someday so they can learn the same things I did, perhaps a little younger than I did. My philosophy on this seems similar to your's and I also have considered essays I'd have them write as well as things to read.

My lists usually focus on the middle and high school years because those were the years books had the largest impact on me. I can't say I know any particularly good works for young, young children unfortunately. I remember my mother left a lot of children's encyclopedias with big pictures around for me to read and that led to me not only learning to read for fun but also becoming interested in a wide variety of subjects.

Some works that I regularly include in these lists:

The Principle Doctrines of Epicurus

Nice, short, and I wish I had them when I was growing up. I am working to memorize them as the ancient Epicureans did and I want to someday encourage my children to do the same; that way they will always be with us to help face life's difficulties. As you may know, Epicureanism had some ideas in common with Satanism.
http://www.epicurus.info/etexts/PD.html#1

Anthem by Ayn Rand

I think it is a good introduction to many ideas including what individuality is really about, personal freedom, and constructive nonconformity. A book I wish I had read before high school.

The short stories of H.P. Lovecraft

I forget who made this remark but someone once said that middle school was the perfect time to start reading Lovecraft. I think that's probably true, even though I unfortunately had to wait until adulthood to discover him.

Albert Ellis's REBT method

Many of his books are written for adults and use pretty complex language, so I can't think of any to recommend. Still, his REBT method is something I wish I'd learnt when I was young. It is a psychology technique that helps people deal with difficult thoughts and emotions by looking at the irrationalities in them. I remember they taught it to children in a few school systems and the results were promising so it's not impossible to teach children. I think besides helping achieve tranquility of mind, the REBT technique could help teach logic, rationality and common sense.

The basics are outlined in quite a bit of detail here:
http://www.rebtnetwork.org/

Beyond that, the classics are worthy of their reputation and Magister Svengali's "Deep Satanism" blog was pretty insightful if you want more ideas. I'd say if you build a strong foundation of reading, by the teenage years your children will know what they want to read on their own.

As someone else said, this is a pretty broad question. This is just what influenced me and what I would have given myself if I went back in time and gave a younger version of myself things to read. Good luck!


Edited by Azathoth (03/12/09 09:18 PM)
_________________________
"I don't know how masochism became synonymous with masculinity."- Rev. Bill M.

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#375033 - 03/17/09 03:04 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: LoneNights]
MorningStar13 Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
I don't have children... but I was recently (and in many ways still consider myself) a child.

The most important thing is that they have fun doing what ever you chose for them to do... if you sit there with a whip hand them a book and yell at them to read cracking your whip. They will learn that reading = bad...
The biggest mistake (i think) parents make is that they try to force their children to do things. Instead of making them do something; make them enjoy doing it.

Instead of handing a child a book and saying read. Read with them... get involved with them and make it fun. If they start getting distracted and fidgety don't get out the rope, tie them up and force it down they're throats.

I know the biggest mistake my parents made was makeing things i enjoyed seem like a lot of very hard very boring work:
1. You must read for half an hour every day
2. You have to practice the Clarinet an hour every day
3. You have to study irregular french verbs
4. On top of that there's homework that if you don't get an A everyone is very disapointed
5. You have to study the Bible for an hour everyday (my mother is a Jehovah's Witness)

All of this is great and beneficial... But you can see how this would seem like a personal Hell made specifically by your parents lol...

Well now that I have been sufficiently unclear and vague I will leave you lol... I hope I was clear enough for you to understand.

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#375062 - 03/17/09 06:09 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: MorningStar13]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: MorningStar13
I don't have children... but I was recently (and in many ways still consider myself) a child.

The most important thing is that they have fun doing what ever you chose for them to do... if you sit there with a whip hand them a book and yell at them to read cracking your whip. They will learn that reading = bad...
The biggest mistake (i think) parents make is that they try to force their children to do things. Instead of making them do something; make them enjoy doing it.

Instead of handing a child a book and saying read. Read with them... get involved with them and make it fun. If they start getting distracted and fidgety don't get out the rope, tie them up and force it down they're throats.

I know the biggest mistake my parents made was makeing things i enjoyed seem like a lot of very hard very boring work:
1. You must read for half an hour every day
2. You have to practice the Clarinet an hour every day
3. You have to study irregular french verbs
4. On top of that there's homework that if you don't get an A everyone is very disapointed
5. You have to study the Bible for an hour everyday (my mother is a Jehovah's Witness)

All of this is great and beneficial... But you can see how this would seem like a personal Hell made specifically by your parents lol...

Well now that I have been sufficiently unclear and vague I will leave you lol... I hope I was clear enough for you to understand.


Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. It's the matter of intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation means that someone has learned to do something for it's own sake. When people have intrinsic motivation they are likely to enjoy it and want to do it often. Extrinsic motivation means people get a reward or avoid punishment if they do something. Extrinsic motivation actually has been known to ruin proteges because it teaches them not to do what they're doing because they enjoy it- but only for external reasons. They get focused on a goal and forget the joy of the process.

I think setting up the right culture in a household is more important than making kids do things. For example, in my house growing up, there was a strong literacy culture. My mother never had to tell me to read but even today, a day where I don't read feels like a day wasted. My mom read daily and my dad did fairly often, maybe a book a month. My Dad read me Bible stories before bed every night as well. As soon as I learned to read, there was an abundance of books lying around for me to choose from and the natural curiousity of childhood led me to pick them up. No force or schedule needed.


Edited by Azathoth (03/17/09 06:10 PM)
_________________________
"I don't know how masochism became synonymous with masculinity."- Rev. Bill M.

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#375065 - 03/17/09 06:46 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: Azathoth]
MorningStar13 Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted By: Azathoth

I think setting up the right culture in a household is more important than making kids do things. For example, in my house growing up, there was a strong literacy culture. My mother never had to tell me to read but even today, a day where I don't read feels like a day wasted. My mom read daily and my dad did fairly often, maybe a book a month. My Dad read me Bible stories before bed every night as well. As soon as I learned to read, there was an abundance of books lying around for me to choose from and the natural curiousity of childhood led me to pick them up. No force or schedule needed.


Exactly... teaching by example!!! That is exactly what I was trying to convey... Although I did a rather poor job of it! lol

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#375073 - 03/17/09 07:39 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: MorningStar13]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
My father was an elder within jehovah's witnesses while i was growing up. I was primed for the same from the beginning, and i will say this. Reading the bible at a very young age and the amount of study that i was subjected to helped me VERY much.

I don't like the religion itself, but the reading was a good thing. It set me ahead of the class as far as school. And now in my early thirties i realize that the structure of religion was good as well. I set some of the parameters that morningstar mentioned for my children though.

I expect high marks in school, cuz I know my children have it in them. I make sure that my oldest reads every night. Doesnt matter what just as long as she does, it also helps her fall asleep. Children do need to know how to survive in the real world, and they need guidance as well as rules.

I also have a reward system that only is met by the responsibilities being met. My rules are easy and age appropriate so my daughter is NOT overwhelmed.

First and foremost my children are my pride and joy, therefore they are a representation of the family they are in. Their ability to strive in this world is a testament to their mother and myself.

Lastly, being a father is a hard fuckin job, which is what makes it so rewarding.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#375077 - 03/17/09 07:53 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: S810]
MorningStar13 Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted By: S810
My father was an elder within jehovah's witnesses while i was growing up. I was primed for the same from the beginning, and i will say this. Reading the bible at a very young age and the amount of study that i was subjected to helped me VERY much.

I must agree with you. Although I find the religion distasteful, all that study does keep you on your toes and teaches you how to study and most of all not to be lazy.

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#375092 - 03/17/09 09:15 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: MorningStar13]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
In the long run it lead me to Satanism. My Father was and still is a highly intelligent man, jesus views aside. He tought me to be a thinker and it stuck.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#375095 - 03/17/09 09:42 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: S810]
Schadenfreude-6 Offline


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 120
Loc: MB, Canada.
I have to agree with Azathoth and MorningStar13 on the subject of reading and how to get children interested in it without forcing it upon them. When I was a small child, my mother would read to me every day for hours and I would love it. Usually Disney books, while other children in Nursery and Kindergarden were learning to color within the lines and how to cut out squares with scissors I was reading. When I was in Grade six my reading comprehension skills were tested and they needed to get higher ranking grade tests for me because I had a perfect score on all of their little flip books asking me to read various paragraphs out loud then explain what they were about, explaining what was going on in them, etc etc. After a perfect score on the tests up to those for Grade 9 students (the highest grade my school went up to at the time) I asked my mother (school principal) to get more so I could see how high I tested.

Her and I did the rest of the tests at home together as she had to borrow some tests from a high school principal friend of hers(and one teacher who's son also went to my school said that she gave me the tests to read and score well on before hand, no doubt jealous). Well I got an 80 or so percent on the Senior 4 (grade 12) test and was quite happy with it. By the time I was in S3 / Grade 11 I was a more competent reader than my English teacher at the time. My whole life I have loved reading and books and I owe it all to my mother spending time reading to me as a child and instilling a love for reading in me without making it seem like work. If she had not, I believe there is a strong chance that I would have grown up as another moron who reads nothing deeper than a magazine. Now one of my current goals in life is to have my own personal library made of up a giant room with many, ceiling high book shelves.

I do believe that the core of raising a responsible adult is instilling in them an interest for books and a love for reading at an early age by making it fun. It's hard to get into trouble if you're in a book, that was the case for me.
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"Inferior organisms succumb and perish or are enslaved. Superior organisms survive, propagate, and possess." - Charles Darwin

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#375099 - 03/17/09 10:07 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: Schadenfreude-6]
Branwyn Offline


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 92
Loc: Montana, USA
I used to love it in grade school... I'd hear the other kids complain about how they weren't allowed to watch movies or play video games with too much violence or sex in them, and I'd walk into the school library and get recommendations from the librarians for books that would turn out to be far more graphic in both ways than the movies the other kids pined after. I wondered at times if the sex and violence of young adult novels wasn't intended to encourage kids to read for their only source of such things.

I was so confused when people started making a fuss about Harry Potter, since it was probably the tamest of the young adult books I was reading at the time. I never heard about any controversy around the Abhorsen trilogy (the main character is a necromancer), or the Sevenwaters trilogy (graphic violence with a good heaping helping of sex), and I only noticed the controversy around His Dark Materials (where the church is the main evil force) after they made the movie.

~Branwyn
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The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

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#375149 - 03/18/09 11:26 AM Re: Iron Youth [Re: LoneNights]
inky Offline


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 103
Loc: USA
This may seem like an odd transition but I started with comic books and ended up reading Shakespere. Go figure.

As far as any component of education, I would humbly suggest the study of music. The discipline and critical thinking required to master a musical instrument can be applied to anything. That's just my opinion.

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#375157 - 03/18/09 12:53 PM Re: Iron Youth [Re: inky]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: inky


As far as any component of education, I would humbly suggest the study of music. The discipline and critical thinking required to master a musical instrument can be applied to anything. That's just my opinion.



Yours...and learned educators: http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/arts/brewer.htm
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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