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#37704 - 04/28/04 06:44 PM Labels/Definitions
GoldenCalf Offline


Registered: 12/03/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Huntsville, Alabama
My understanding:

Satanism is a religion built around a very sound philosphy.

A SatanIST is one who both practices the religion of Satanism and fits a certain personality type.

What if one agrees with the basic philosophy, but doesn't use the Satanic symbolism and ritual, and doesn't really fit the personality type?

For instance, he agrees that the carnal is a much more worthwhile pursuit than the spiritual, that indulgence is a virtue, that his own interests rightfully come before anyone else's, that earthly accomplishment is to be respected and striven for, that a healthy ego is a must, and that man's animal nature should be celebrated instead of hidden in shame. However, he finds no stimulation in the symbolic Satan, nor has he been particularly successful in the pursuit of earthly success. He is prone to self-doubt, occassional loss of self-control, laziness, bad habits (television and smoking, let's say), a few insecurities, and other imperfections.

What would this person be called? A Satanist? I think not. Then what?

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#37705 - 04/28/04 06:55 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8802
I am not going to attempt to answer your question.

Others will do that shortly, with varying degrees of insight and courtesy.

I am however going to salute your honesty and clarity. I admire that.

Very Satanic.

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#37706 - 04/28/04 07:01 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Quaark]
GoldenCalf Offline


Registered: 12/03/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Huntsville, Alabama
Many thanks.

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#37707 - 04/28/04 07:01 PM Your Satan... My Satan... [Re: GoldenCalf]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
He is prone to self-doubt, occassional loss of self-control, laziness, bad habits (television and smoking, let's say), a few insecurities, and other imperfections.

You talk like you know the guy in person. What Satan are you talking about?

Satan is a symbol, and different people understand symbols in a different way. Satanists see Satan as embodiment of carnal existence and non conformism. That’s the way we interpret Satan. Other religions interpret Satan as a real guy with horns and tail who has some compulsion for collecting souls.

Looks like your Satan smokes and watches TV a lot... Mine doesn't, thought he drinks a lot of beer some times.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#37708 - 04/28/04 07:34 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Entity Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1773
Loc: Avalon UK
Quote:

However, he finds no stimulation in the symbolic Satan, nor has he been particularly successful in the pursuit of earthly success. He is prone to self-doubt, occassional loss of self-control, laziness, bad habits (television and smoking, let's say), a few insecurities, and other imperfections.

What would this person be called? A Satanist? I think not. Then what?




Does it matter?

What a person does is not what they are. And behaviours can be changed...
_________________________
~ Reverend Entity

Nothing is better than to live according to one's taste. - François Villon

Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#37709 - 04/28/04 08:15 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Shiboleth Offline


Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Alberta, Canada
"What would this person be called? A Satanist? I think not. Then what?"

I call them "most people".
_________________________
this is a recording...

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#37710 - 04/28/04 08:27 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11546
Loc: New England, USA
>For instance, he agrees that the carnal is a much more
>worthwhile pursuit than the spiritual, that indulgence is
>a virtue, that his own interests rightfully come before
>anyone else's,

I suppose you might agree with a few things found in Ayn Rand's Objectivism...
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#37711 - 04/28/04 10:17 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
I call them in need of a good dose of egotism and self-discipline. Many a worthwhile Satanist has come from hard beginnings to correct programmed problems.

If this fails, then I'd simply say that if they cannot taste the forbidden fruit, then at least they had the pleasure of glimpsing it. My recommendation at that point is to attempt to keep lessons learned in mind; i.e., apply what you can of Satanic principle for self-gain. No reason to throw out something good, even if you're only halfway using it.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#37712 - 04/28/04 11:55 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Scratch Offline


Registered: 09/30/03
Posts: 207
Loc: Austin, TX
Quote:

What would this person be called? A Satanist? I think not.



There ya go! Not a Satanist. I hardly think it matters what this guy is, but it's good that you picked up on his laziness and loss of self-control. Perhaps you have been able to see the drawbacks of his life choices and grow from them.

It's also important to recognize that everyone has imperfections. We all make mistakes sometimes. What sets us above the herdlings is our ability to recognize our errors, rationalize our problems, and realize the improvements necessary for the betterment of the quality of our lives.

Remember that it's okay to make mistakes as long as they help you to learn and to improve the quality of your life.
_________________________
"Stupid people do stupid things... smart people outsmart each other... then themselves." --DDevil-SOAD

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#37713 - 04/28/04 11:57 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Scratch Offline


Registered: 09/30/03
Posts: 207
Loc: Austin, TX
Gorgeous. I should have read yours before making a similar post. Needless to say, I agree with you. LOL
_________________________
"Stupid people do stupid things... smart people outsmart each other... then themselves." --DDevil-SOAD

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#37714 - 04/29/04 12:17 AM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
However, he finds no stimulation in the symbolic Satan, nor has he been particularly successful in the pursuit of earthly success. He is prone to self-doubt, occassional loss of self-control, laziness, bad habits (television and smoking, let's say), a few insecurities, and other imperfections.

What do you consider success? Are you currently happy with how your life is? Do feel there is something lacking? If so, fix it. A Satanist does not need to be a millionaire. A Satanist is someone who seeks out self-improvement for gratification. You can be a Satanist and work at JC Penny as long as you are happy it does not really matter. If you dislike any aspect of your life you shouldn't continue to subject yourself to it. Go out and get what is desirable.

I don't like the word self-doubt. I'd rather use the saying constructive thinking. Constructive thinking leads to self-improvement. Thinking your actions out clearly is beneficial. It nourishes confidence. Self-doubt is counterproductive. Thinking that you are destined to failure predisposes you to failure. Don't doubt yourself, know yourself, and improve yourself. I judge myself against my own standards. If I am lacking I fix myself.

There is a difference from loss of self-control and indulgence. One brings pleasure while the other is lazy and self-destructive. Occasionally enjoying the simple things in life such as lazyness is fun but you must understand that there are limits. Watching TV all day because there is nothing better to do is lazy. Watching TV because there is a show on that you really enjoy is indulgence. One is the zombie the other is the commander.

Insecurities can be overcome and become secure. Imperfection, well there is no such thing in my book. You can always improve. Just look at imperfection as a motivator to reach perfection.

Did I help any? You may not be a Satanist but these things are still useful tools.


Edited by Discipline (05/05/04 05:50 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#37715 - 04/29/04 04:26 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Nyarlathotep Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/10/03
Posts: 959
Loc: Nashville, TN
Quote:

However, he finds no stimulation in the symbolic Satan, nor has he been particularly successful in the pursuit of earthly success.



There are in fact many symbols for Satan; not just the ones we use. Maybe if you (or your friend) does some research...?

Quote:

He is prone to self-doubt, occassional loss of self-control, laziness, bad habits (television and smoking, let's say), a few insecurities, and other imperfections.



I call that just being human, something we Satanists all are. But they're nothing that can't be gotten over. I admit I have my fair share of bad habits, but I am getting over them.

If you or your friend aren't Satanists, that's perfectly okay. What's really important is that you all are honest with yourselves. Read the first of the quotes in my signature .
_________________________
"I think, therefore I am dangerous."

"So now you'll see that evil will always triumph...because good is dumb."
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

HAIL SATAN!!

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#37716 - 04/29/04 05:28 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Nyarlathotep]
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:


"It's better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you're not."




I disagree. Being loved will always afford you more power than being hated, regardless of other factors. It's called lesser magic.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37717 - 04/29/04 07:23 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is my perception that Satanism has nothing to do with Satan or any of the other "devilish" fantasy characters. There are many who follow the philosophy without knowing that such a cabal exists. Hell, I didn't even know I was a Satanist until half a year ago, but I haven't changed since that realisation.

Only those that have truely researched the religions and philosophies of the world can find the irony in calling this particular philosophy Satanism.

It doesn't matter what you call yourself, but I suggest, if you're interested, you do some research on the history of the religious world. Then you, too, could maybe take pride in calling yourself a Satanist.

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#37718 - 04/29/04 09:52 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Sarn Offline


Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 29
Loc: Long Island, NY
I don't think it matters if other people think you are a Satanist, it only matters that you know you are.

Changing the way you act just so you better fit what you or others think is the best fit for the Satanist mold is not the way to go. Satanism, for me, is about freeing yourself from constraints, if you have to do that by even lying to people, for instance saying you are not a Satanist, then Satanism has no problem with that. Lying to yourself is the true sin.

Are you happy with who you are? Great! No? Fix it!

I know a great deal of stressed out workaholics who could do with a bit more laziness in their lives.

I know some conceited mother fuckers who could do with some self doubt too.

I know some rigid perfectionists who could do with some loss of self control.

And if smoking and TV are among the worst of your bad habits you are better off then a huge percentage of the world.

And finally, the biggest factor, for me, concerning Satanism. There is no perfect. There is no perfect being, state of being, no transcendence, there is nothing better then what you have now. There are only better ways to use your time and energy and resources.

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#37719 - 04/29/04 10:12 PM Re: Three Things [Re: GoldenCalf]
Wonka Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/02/02
Posts: 638
Loc: The City of Red Lights
Three things I would like to note:

1. Demonic imagery is not a necessity. Use whatever imagery you find most stimulating. That is especially true for rituals, which are based solely on results, not group aesthetics.

Personally, I find more beauty in the gears of a clock than a red beast with horns, but the latter is more entertaining.

2. There are many Satanists who do not actively perform rituals. Due to how effective they are and the benefits gained, one should at least experiment with it. Have you thoroughly explored that area yet?

3. Satanists are not without faults. What separates a Satanist from the rest of humanity, however, is the drive to overcome anything that stands in between you and your goals. It's not impossible to break habits, you just have to possess the Will to do so.

Try this: Unplug your Television and put it in the closet for two weeks. By the end of the two weeks, you will know which God you serve.
_________________________
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.

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#37720 - 05/01/04 10:33 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I disagree. Being loved will always afford you more power than being hated, regardless of other factors. It's called lesser magic.


I have to disagree, It is better to be feared than loved, because people are fickle when it comes to love, and you cannot gurantee that people will always love you, but you can guarantee that people will always fear you, and out of fear will grow respect, and eventually love, in a supplicative manner.

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#37721 - 05/01/04 10:58 PM Re: Labels/Definitions
Wonka Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/02/02
Posts: 638
Loc: The City of Red Lights
Unless they form a group and overthrow you.
_________________________
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.

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#37722 - 05/02/04 08:51 AM Re: Your Satan... My Satan... [Re: Old_Pig]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
I couldn't have said that better. Sometimes people get caught up in trying to be the "Ideal Satanist" and forget that it's all about what makes them feel best personally that matters, even if that leads to being unSatanic. (If being UnSatanic is what makes you most happy, thats what you have to do). And they forget that "Non conformism" means NOT conforming, not just with the mainstream public, but with anyone who doesn't meet your personal requirements. And either way, a lot more Satanists smoke, watch a lot of tv, smoke pot, and do any number of things that are unsatanic, than you'd think. I don't really think it's anyones business besides that one person, unless he's hurting someone else, or stopping himself from doing anything that will satisfy him in the long run, and not just the present.

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#37723 - 05/02/04 10:18 AM Re: Labels/Definitions
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Mr. Sum
Feared and hated are not synonyms.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37724 - 05/02/04 11:25 AM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dan,
You are correct, fear and hatred are not synonymous, and I will be more careful about making that kind of lateral connection in the future.

Let me put it this way then; Trying to make "everyone" or the majority of people you are in regular contact with "love" you through the use of lesser magic, while it may work for short term purposes, will eventually backfire in the long run, simply because attempting to gain goodwill from the majority will breed disrespect and derision.

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#37725 - 05/02/04 01:11 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: GoldenCalf]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

What would this person be called? A Satanist? I think not. Then what?





Then what?

What do you think?

They fail. Then they disappear. Or they go to McDonald's and have a Chicken Nugget. I personally don't care. Why would I? There are six billion people on this planet. They would just be another person like all the rest.

Satanism requires adherence to the dogma (hopefully by choice!) and natural Satanic attitude. If you don't have them both, then why bother? There are many other self-help philosophies available. There are many hobbies and things that can be enjoyed by a whole multitude of personality types. If your whole heart isn't in it, then how "whole" do you think the result will be?

No. I won't accept this half-ass shit. You either are or you aren't. Before the internet came along, this problem didn't exist. Now, with everyone's fake identities, they all think that they can "fit in" somewhere - anywhere - just to cling to the identity factor. I don't like it one bit.

Satanism, Satanic attitude and magical prowess are inseperable. Yes, we really do exist. If you have a flaw - fine. But a Satanist corrects it according to his own standards, usually because they simply know better.

Anton LaVey wrote that the degree of non-conformity alters the degree of magical success, and he made conformity a Satanic Sin. The archetype of Satan, meaning the "opposite", or the "accuser" is a natural part of Satanism and non-conformity, and additionally a natural part of magic. While Anton LaVey also mentioned that the most unsuccessful Satanists will tend to frequent the ritual chamber on a much too regular basis, this was a sane choice of pragmatism, but not a knock against magic. Magic is constant, throughout the dogma of Satanism, not just in the ritual chamber. Outside of the ritual chamber, there is also a natural identification with the Black Flame, notable aspects of the Law of the Trapezoid, and the very significant ability to shout "Hail Satan!" and feel good about it. I personally don't see how anyone would miss these things or choose to ignore them without wearing some kind of good guy badge that prevents them from admitting that they are a magician. This is why I find "magic" inseperable from Satanism, as well as the archetype of Satan. The philosophy all on its own represents the archetype of Satan, so if you understand the philosophy, then you understand and relate to the archetype.

Don't you?

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#37726 - 05/03/04 08:10 AM Re: Labels/Definitions
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Who said anything about 'everyone'? It was a question of choice between being loved or hated.You would certainly have more freedom, power, and luxury afforded to you if 'everyone' loved you, than if 'everyone' hated you.
Would you not agree?
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37727 - 05/03/04 02:47 PM Re: Your Satan... My Satan... [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Sometimes people get caught up in trying to be the "Ideal Satanist" and forget that it's all about what makes them feel best personally that matters, even if that leads to being unSatanic.

That's not unSatanic. That is Satanic. A Satanist will make a judgement call and decide what is his personal desires.

Now if his indulgences become counter-productive to the point of self-destruction I think they should reevaluate it.

And they forget that "Non conformism" means NOT conforming, not just with the mainstream public, but with anyone who doesn't meet your personal requirements.

That comes naturally to a Satanist. There is a fine line between non-conformity and conformity when one is doing so to avoid conformity. A Satanist does not stand on either side of the line. He does what he enjoys and what leads to gratification (legally). He should ask himself this, "What are my motives for this? What will I gain? Will this be enjoyable? I'm I doing this for myself or to fit in and be accepted?"

If you don't get along with another Satanist, fine. Who cares. You don't have to like everyone who label themselves a Satanist.

And either way, a lot more Satanists smoke, watch a lot of tv, smoke pot, and do any number of things that are unsatanic

I think your missing the point. I may have a couple of cigarettes on the weekends, I might flip on the TV to catch a good show, I might be lazy for a day but unlike most I understand when I have reached the limit. I can get off the couch and do what needs to be done. Watching TV all day while smoking a couple of packs of cigarettes while there are other ways of enjoyment just a walk away is not what I call productive and enjoyment. Of course this is just my opinion but I just feel that there needs to be a good healthy balance.

unless he's hurting someone else, or stopping himself from doing anything that will satisfy him in the long run, and not just the present.

What is the satisfaction they seek? If it is just to sit on their lazy asses and stare at a TV screen for a entire week that is counter-productive. That does not lead to an enjoyable future. It leads to nothing. Hurting yourself because your weak and lazy is stupid.

Responsibility to the responsible.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#37728 - 05/03/04 03:28 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nyarlathotep Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/10/03
Posts: 959
Loc: Nashville, TN
Quote:

I disagree. Being loved will always afford you more power than being hated, regardless of other factors. It's called lesser magic.



I believe you misunderstood the gist of the quote.

The gist is to be true to yourself. I do get what you're saying, but I look at Lesser Magic as being different than getting someone to love you. Getting someone to do what you want, yes. Getting something you want, yes. But not getting someone to love you.

There's a difference between Lesser Magic and self-deceit.

My quote has nothing to do with Lesser Magic.

It has everything to do with self-deceit.
_________________________
"I think, therefore I am dangerous."

"So now you'll see that evil will always triumph...because good is dumb."
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

HAIL SATAN!!

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#37729 - 05/03/04 04:03 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Nyarlathotep]
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
When applied to oneself, sure.

But the gist of that quote is 'honesty over all' when not applied to oneself..and that I can't jive with.

I realize being loved isn't in and of itself lesser magic, but manuevering yourself into a position that affords you the most power, is.
Hope this clears up my statement.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37730 - 05/03/04 04:16 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nyarlathotep Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/10/03
Posts: 959
Loc: Nashville, TN
Quote:

But the gist of that quote is 'honesty over all' when not applied to oneself..and that I can't jive with.



Context is everything .

Quote:

I realize being loved isn't in and of itself lesser magic, but manuevering yourself into a position that affords you the most power, is.
Hope this clears up my statement.



Certainly. In this, I completely agree with you.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
"I think, therefore I am dangerous."

"So now you'll see that evil will always triumph...because good is dumb."
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

HAIL SATAN!!

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#37731 - 05/03/04 06:33 PM Re: Your Satan... My Satan... [Re: Discipline]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
What can I tell ya, some people want to sit on their lazy asses for the rest of their life.



But let's recap, shall we?

Quote:

That's not unSatanic. That is Satanic. A Satanist will make a judgement call and decide what is his personal desires.

Now if his indulgences become counter-productive to the point of self-destruction I think they should reevaluate it.




That was my point, it's not about making the next Satanist happy with your "Satanic Performance", it's about doing what will make you happy. (Getting caught up in the present and forgetting about the future by watching and getting stoned, fat, drunk, and cancerous all day every day isn't what it's about either, but that's beside the point)

Quote:

That comes naturally to a Satanist. There is a fine line between non-conformity and conformity when one is doing so to avoid conformity. A Satanist does not stand on either side of the line. He does what he enjoys and what leads to gratification (legally). He should ask himself this, "What are my motives for this? What will I gain? Will this be enjoyable? I'm I doing this for myself or to fit in and be accepted?"




Again, that's exactly my point.




So... thanks for..... enforcing what I said.

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#37732 - 05/03/04 06:53 PM Re: Your Satan... My Satan... [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
So... thanks for..... enforcing what I said.

You're welcome.

Your original reply seem to state that a Satanist should seek out unSatanic desires. I was stating there is no such thing because what a Satanist seeks out is naturally Satanic.

But enough of the rambling and change the channel, American Idol is on.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#37733 - 05/03/04 07:01 PM Re: Your Satan... My Satan... [Re: Discipline]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
People who actually watch that show are just.... fucked up. Not quite as fucked up as the people who actually BUY William Hung's cd. But that's for another thread.
.....Perhaps one I should make!

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#37734 - 05/04/04 03:09 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I look at the people I know of who enjoy the most freedom, power, and luxury, I see people who are both loved and hated to the extreme. Having true friends means having true enemies as well. It's all part of living a vital existence. I would think that if my freedom and power depended on how others felt about me, it would not be true freedom or power. Have you read "Human, All Too Human" by Neitzche?

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#37735 - 05/04/04 04:24 PM Re: Labels/Definitions
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

I would think that if my freedom and power depended on how others felt about me, it would not be true freedom or power.




Is power and freedom an escape, or an achievement?

If you're going to be free and powerful, you have to be able to command other people's opinions of you. If you can't get them to favor you, you have to overcome them. As soon as you do that, you'll have a new enemy. Then you start over again. The most successful leaders of history have known how to win the majority. The fact that they had enemies was irrelevant. Even the most selfish minded people had to win the favor of their associates. If they didn't win it with personality, they won it with money, a reliable history, or stealth.

In order for you not to be dependent on what other people think of you, you'd have to be living on an island with no other inhabitants. The only kind of true power and freedom you could have as the single inhabitant of an island would be a completely isolated and lonely kind. Would you hire someone, do them a favor, allow them to trespass on your property if you're opinion of them was negative? I imagine that if "power" simply means that you make your own decisions, then this could work. But if "power" is referring to any sort of influence over material affairs, hence other people, this desire couldn't be fulfilled.

The ticket to freedom and power is not necessarily a liberation from material affairs or obligations, but rather a command over them. The truly powerful person works harder and has more personal obligations than anyone below him. This is where the concept came from in royal families that true sovereignity means being "of service". Even if all of your obligations are to yourself, and you manage to survive well regardless of other people's opinions, what kind of power will you have? It is essential to leverage your position in the environment you live in. There is no way around it. You can let others master you, or you can be a master, but you cannot relieve yourself of every burden and every obligation. Everything is a choice. Making a choice is the only opportunity for power and freedom available to us.

There is an additional distinction to make, though, with all of this in mind. Is it really necessary to be "good" in order to win other people's favor?

No, it isn't. Not at all. In fact, that has never worked at all, except within the ranks of the lower man. The higher men who are supporting the current president, for example, know exactly what's going on.

Democracy expands political influence. Egalitarianism expands the market. Freedom gets the customers to keep coming back. And they do it, too. Boy, do they ever.

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#37736 - 05/04/04 06:31 PM Re: Labels/Definitions
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
.
Quote:


Having true friends means having true enemies




I don't buy into that kind of dualistic thinking.
An enemy is someone that wants to kill you.
A friend is someone you get pleasure from having around.
The two aren't related.

Regardless, none of that has nothing to do with what I said.
Think of it this way;
-What would you do for someone you loved?

-What would you do for someone you hated?

-Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to be on the recieving end of?
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37737 - 05/05/04 04:19 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I seem to have fallen into this funk of not being able to explain myself very well lately, and for that I apologize.
I agree with everything you wrote, heartily.

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#37738 - 05/05/04 04:56 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Anonymous
Unregistered


-Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to be on the recieving end of?

In short, both. I love to be loved, and I like to be hated too. Time with good friends is great. Vexing, hexing, and hammering my enemies is fun too. It all goes toward a very satisfying life. And yes, I lose sometimes too, and I learn from it. And it's better to die at the hands of my enemy than die alone and forgotten.

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#37739 - 05/05/04 06:00 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Stanton_Vetalas Offline


Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 240
Loc: Teh 518
No, a friend isn't just someone you enjoy having around, it's someone who likes having you around. Otherwise they wouldn't be around you all the time to make you happy. It's mutual The enemy hates you, the friend loves you. The two ARE related, and are opposites.

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#37740 - 05/06/04 12:27 AM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Stanton_Vetalas]
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:


The two ARE related, and are opposites.




I disagree. We are culturally honed to divide everything into good and bad, right and wrong. I don't, as i mentioned, buy into it.
Love and hate are not oposites. They are two totally separate chemical reactions in your brain naturally developed for different reasons. Any corolation between the two is completely imagined.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37741 - 05/06/04 12:31 AM Re: Labels/Definitions
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:

-Which of these two scenarios would you prefer to be on the recieving end of?

In short, both. I love to be loved, and I like to be hated too. Time with good friends is great. Vexing, hexing, and hammering my enemies is fun too. It all goes toward a very satisfying life. And yes, I lose sometimes too, and I learn from it. And it's better to die at the hands of my enemy than die alone and forgotten.



Nice little mini-rant, and I partially agree. However, again that has little to nothing to do with what I said.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37742 - 05/06/04 05:01 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Anonymous
Unregistered


What will it take to answer your question satisfactorily? You say you don't buy into duality, yet you continue to insist that I choose between love and hate. they are opposite sides of a duality. You asked me to choose, I chose both, which I made clear in the first sentence of my last response. That's my answer, deal with it.

As for duality, it is not just imagined, it is how we percieve everything, and is a key tool of magic, especially for those on the LHP.

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#37743 - 05/07/04 01:10 PM Re: Labels/Definitions
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:


You say you don't buy into duality, yet you continue to insist that I choose between love and hate




My comment was about a specific quote. You quickly dragged this out of context. Maybe you should consider a career in journalism?

Quote:


it is how we percieve everything




Do not presume to speak for me; or anyone else for that matter. Are you aware of the concept of solopsism and its definition?
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37744 - 05/07/04 10:37 PM Re: Labels/Definitions [Re: Dan_Dread]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

Do not presume to speak for me; or anyone else for that matter. Are you aware of the concept of solopsism and its definition?




Yes, I'm familiar with the word, and it's definition. Are you human? Do you currently reside on this planet? Duality is the way humans process information. It is the way our brains percieve and begin to classify empirical information, concepts, and feelings. It has nothing to do with solipsism, or any presumption on my part. You call yourself a logic machine, logic itself can be narrowed down to a binary function, ones and zeros, something and nothing, oops! another duality. Use your logic and figure out what I'm talking about instead of simply implying that I have committed a Satanic sin.


Quote:

Maybe you should consider a career in journalism?





Now that's funny!
If you're interested, perhaps we should continue this conversation through PM's.

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#37745 - 05/08/04 12:22 AM Re: Labels/Definitions
Dan_Dread Offline


Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:


Duality is the way humans process information




I simply do not agree with this. Viewing things in this light is sheerly conditioning of the predominantly dualistic thinking society in which we live.
However, I do agree that this thread is not the apropriate place for this discussion.
_________________________
"One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein --------------------

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#37746 - 05/08/04 11:26 AM Magic Exploration [Re: Wonka]
Anonymous
Unregistered


What about the magician who has explorered and had great success with his use of magic. But that the success of such abilities and it's effectiveness have been major contributors in them feeling no need to perform another ritual simply because it's too much power to just use on a regular basis and should be harnessed until the moment in time when it is most duely needed. I believe that Lesser Magic is infinately more useful to the gifted magician, and that someone who has mastered a combination of Lesser Magic skills and has fine tuned them through years of practice is someone who cannot be stopped no matter what steps in front of them.

No I'm not bragging about myself here, it's in part actual experiences and in part goals. But after my last attempt at casting the results left me satisfied to the point where my ego doesn't need a reminder of the power I have at my disposal if the need should arise; I'm content to know what is there the next time I need it.

DatheR

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