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#378833 - 04/22/09 05:04 PM Why would a Satanist ever join the military?
Charlie R Offline


Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 64
Self preservation is the highest law.

If that is one of the cardinal points of Satanism, why would a Satanist ever deliberately put themselves in harms way and literally increase their chance of death or serious injury tenfold by joining the military? Isn't putting yourself in a situation where bullets will be whizzing passed your head the opposite of self preservation?

I understand that people have many reasons for joining the military, and sadly many join because they feel they have no other option. But I doubt a Satanist would ever find themselves in that situation.

I'd just like for some one to clear this up for me.

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#378840 - 04/22/09 05:41 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
inky Offline


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 103
Loc: USA
Self preservation is indeed the highest law. In my opinion and from personal experience there is a motivating factor for joining the military...pride.

The fact that you have the ability and resolve to do something that few others can. Its an experience that's difficult to explain and like anything there's the good with the bad.

The armed forces trains for one thing...war. The possibility of injury or death is increased but you can just as easily be killed outside of a war zone. For example, I believe the statistics show that most fatal car accidents happen within 1 mile of the victim's home.

I hope this helps a little bit.

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#378847 - 04/22/09 06:19 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: inky]
Lyra Offline


Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 29
Loc: Middle of Nowhere
Not all military jobs are on the dangerous frontlines. Most military personnel work "behind the scenes".

If I ever join the military, I'll be opting for a "boring" desk job. wink And I'm a woman, so I can't even be put into actual combat.

Not all sexism is bad. witch


Edited by Lyra (04/22/09 06:20 PM)
Edit Reason: Typos
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#378848 - 04/22/09 06:49 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Lyra]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
I've been thinking of joining the military for the benefits and the government job preference- not to mention the chance to gain greater independence. Whether I will or not will probably depend on the next couple years and my ability to pay for college.

Like Lyra, I definitely want a "boring" job if I do go in.

If anyone has any recommendations of military jobs for an introverted, intellectually oriented, right side of the synthesizer clock type, I'd be happy to hear them. I've often worried that my personality would disqualify me from really "making it" in the military but there is quite a variety of positions, so I don't know. I am physically fit and have a military tradition in my family, so I'm hardly a whimp.

As for Satanists in the military besides myself, my best friend is one. He's always been a fighter so it just came naturally to him. To be honest, I can't think of many civilian jobs he'd enjoy. It's a match made in heaven, even if it may be a little more dangerous than most jobs.


Edited by Azathoth (04/22/09 07:26 PM)
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#378864 - 04/22/09 07:53 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Azathoth]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
"The possibility of injury or death is increased but you can just as easily be killed outside of a war zone. For example, I believe the statistics show that most fatal car accidents happen within 1 mile of the victim's home."

This comparison is more sugared down than McDonalds iced tea. If you join the military and your assigned to the frontlines, chance of death goes waaaay up(and face it, the majority of the military is soldiers, not accountants behind desks). Soldiers are tools for the government's agenda. Most of the time they are swindled by recruiters and given this bs fantasy that you become some hero who's praised by everyone. Fighting for your "country" is stupid. Can you depend on your country to be there for you when your down? Does your country love you and care if you die in battle? Hell no! It just see's a soldier as a number on paper. I would only risk my life if I needed to, and maybe for those I love, not for some unreal concept of a "country".

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#378865 - 04/22/09 08:00 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Your country is also where you live. And if it happens to be attacked or invaded by the enemy, good luck with doing what you want to do ever again.

It's not an "unreal concept", it's a solid fact.

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#378868 - 04/22/09 08:29 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Dorian_Grey Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Virginia
You're not really taking the entire military into account. The Navy, for example, is a relatively safe branch. Risk to life and limb is minimal. As far as being "tools for the government's agenda", has it ever occurred to you the members of the military are using the government to get what they want? There are many benifits to having been in the military. Just off the top of my head, free school, health benefits, and VA loans are just a few.

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#378869 - 04/22/09 08:44 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Dorian_Grey]
Charlie R Offline


Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 64
Sorry, I really should have specified that I meant a combat MOS or at least one that is battling on the front lines.


Edited by Charlie R (04/22/09 08:44 PM)

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#378870 - 04/22/09 08:54 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I'll let the serving members answer for themselves, but in general, I'll say:

In the context of Satanism, "self preservation is the highest law" means you always have the moral right to use force in self-defense, and don't have to lay down and take abuse from other people. We believe in asserting ourselves, not "turning the other cheek".

It has nothing to do with higher virtues like acquiring advanced skills, accepting reasonable risks as part of a career, civic duty, or higher moral values like personal autonomy — all of which might be excellent reasons for someone to serve.
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#378873 - 04/22/09 09:22 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: reprobate]
Dorian_Grey Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Virginia
Warlock Reprobate, you're absolutely correct. What I was trying to say is that one could serve for all those reasons and still maintain self preservation.

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#378874 - 04/22/09 09:26 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Terrenial wrote,
Quote:
Soldiers are tools for the government's agenda. Most of the time they are swindled by recruiters and given this bs fantasy that you become some hero who's praised by everyone. Fighting for your "country" is stupid. Can you depend on your country to be there for you when your down? Does your country love you and care if you die in battle? Hell no! It just see's a soldier as a number on paper. I would only risk my life if I needed to, and maybe for those I love, not for some unreal concept of a "country".


Not having served in the armed forces myself, I do have a number of relatives who have and trust me when I tell you they were NOBODY'S tools. They knew the risks inherent in being a soldier, but they made a conscious and voluntary decision to serve their Country.

And while you may think fighting for your Country is quote unquote stupid, there are plenty of people out there manning the front lines keeping it safe for candy asses to make remarks like that. Think I'm wrong, then move Saudi Arabia and scream, "Mohamed butt fucks Allah", in some town square and see how long you live.



Edited by Ushiwakamaru (04/22/09 10:20 PM)

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#378880 - 04/22/09 09:50 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
I have a feeling that all the folks on this thread who are at a loss for why a Satanist would ever join the Military have never met someone in the Military. Either that, or they have, and that particular individual colored a negative picture of the enitre Military for them. (Which is really stupid. Magister Sass wrote an essay on this idea called "The Church of Satan and People")

They're probably the same kind of pussies/dumb-asses who think that by enlisting you somehow get rid of your individuality. They look at the UNIform and assume that encompasses their enitre being. They look at basic training and taking orders and view it as "breaking them".

I have nothing but contempt for these hippie fucks.
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#378882 - 04/22/09 10:01 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Dorian_Grey]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Sure, I just wanted to add that Satanism doesn't have a prejudice against the REALLY, truly, dangerous-as-hell combat positions.

There are many members on this board who have served in live, hot, bullets-shooting-at-them combat.

There are also other Satanists who have served in other military roles but who have made incredible sacrifices and taken risks of other kinds, without knowing how precisely it would affect their interests in the end. Theirs aren't my stories to tell, but I will just say that courage takes many forms (and the Church of Satan recognizes as much).

I respect and admire all who put their their lives on the line in defense of something that really matters: safeguarding personal liberty and showing the enemy what they're made of.
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#378885 - 04/22/09 10:17 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: reprobate]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:
I respect and admire all who put their their lives on the line in defense of something that really matters: safeguarding personal liberty and showing the enemy what they're made of.


In-fucking-deed!!!!

It's no secret that I respect and admire the men and women that put their asses on the line every day so that I may do the things that I do.

I can only speak for myself, but it really pisses me off when assholes disparage the military, police force, fire department etc..

Frankly, I consider defending personal liberty to be unquestionably Satanic.
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#378887 - 04/22/09 10:27 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Branwyn Offline


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 92
Loc: Montana, USA
Lack of perspective is a Satanic sin.

The only technically military job I've ever been attracted to is the possibility of working as a researcher at USAMRIID, and I blame it entirely on Richard Preston.

(But I'd want to get a PhD first, if I was going to do that, and they do employ civilians)

But other than that, joining the military has an appeal of zero, for me personally. But it would be idiotic (and sinful) to think that just because I have no interest in it, then it must not be a worthwhile thing to do for anyone.

I'm sure for other people, the idea of getting a degree in microbiology has an appeal of zero. Or the idea of getting married. Or the idea of being a Satanist.

So what?

If it doesn't appeal to you, you typically don't do it.

That's as it should be.

That doesn't mean that it's a stupid thing for someone else to do.

The way the original question was stated, it could easily apply to just about any dangerous job, in or out of the military. Hell, I suppose mine probably qualifies as a dangerous job, but I don't think of it as a prolonged form of suicide. It's a cool job, something I thrive doing and needs to be done. It has its downsides just like any job, so what? I imagine it's similar for many members of the military.

~Branwyn
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#378888 - 04/22/09 10:28 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
foreverlearning Offline


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 104
I'm currently about to finish up my sophomore year of college. Next summer I will be attending O.C.C. (Officer candidate courses) to become a Marine officer upon graduation. Upon accepting my commission, I will become a member of one of the most elite armed forces in the world. The U.S. Marines have a history longer than the United States of America itself, starting during the Revolutionary War.
Personally, I couldn't imagine a desk job for my entire life. I love physical excercises and pushing my body and I think I would go insane sitting at a desk all day.
No recruiter talked me into this with fantastic promises...it was actually that commercial where the marine climbs the mountain, and then slays the dragon at the top (I'm just joking).
Chances are I will end up as a grunt, fighting as a foot soldier. However, it is entirely possible that if I push myself, I could end up as a Marine jet pilot. Getting my ass slingshot off of aircraft carriers 0-140 mph in 2 seconds! That would be so exciting to me I may need to change my pants after.
I know not everyone feels the same way about this as I do, but the Marines don't even try to hide that they arn't for everyone.
Also, getting my college loans paid off, starting at $50,000 a year, plus food and housing and tax benefits isn't too shabby either.
Also, I don't plan on dieing. Despite what the media wants you to believe, not every soldier dies.
I hope this gives you some insight into how someone who is anticipating a military career's head works. smile

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#378889 - 04/22/09 10:34 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
If someones "individuality" is so weak that it is dissolved by putting on a uniform than it wasn't much to speak of in the first place.

Some people find what they are made of by pushing the limits, facing and overcoming dangers and obstacles, and find greater gratification in achievement in a merit and ability stratified context such as the military.

Also, there are those rare souls who regard WAR as an "extreme sport."

The Church of Satan has a LONG standing tradition of affiliates, including high ranking members of the Hierarchy, in Military, Law Enforcement, Intelligence, and other high-risk professions.

Whether being in the military itself is "Satanic" or not depends on the individual - the Satanist is "Satanic" whether in the military or any other line of work and brings that special mindset to bear accordingly.

It is highly arguable that the Satanic mindset is especially suited for life or death tests of survival, or other variations of "The Great Game."
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#378890 - 04/22/09 10:55 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Azathoth]
Sideshowtuper Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 464
Loc: NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Azathoth
Like Lyra, I definitely want a "boring" job if I do go in.

If anyone has any recommendations of military jobs for an introverted, intellectually oriented, right side of the synthesizer clock type, I'd be happy to hear them. I've often worried that my personality would disqualify me from really "making it" in the military but there is quite a variety of positions, so I don't know. I am physically fit and have a military tradition in my family, so I'm hardly a whimp.


I'd like to point out, even if you choose a "boring" MOS (job) you'll be performing all manner of duties.

My MOS was 92A (Automated Logistical Specialist) and I was the SAW Gunner for my squad, I was on the NBC (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical) detection team. I was an "A driver" (security) on a number of missions and I was a military escort for civilians (TCN detail) (On a side note I did have some fun with that).

When we did training, we were each assigned to instruct a different class, my class was always The Firing and Maintenance of the M249 and because I can twist my arms and legs around I was the casualty for first aid and field medicine training. Also I demonstrated how to react in a chemical attack, donning protective gear, flushing your eyes and decontaminating yourself.

Plus, there's the not so glamorous details, mopping floors and KP, luckily, because I was in charge of keys and vehicle dispatches and always in demand, I got out of KP every time.

Well, that's a sample of my expearience.
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#378892 - 04/22/09 11:21 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Poetaster]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Thirded!

Survival is indeed the highest law.

But, I think it is important to note that there is more to life than mere survival.

Love, pride, curiosity, a sense of honor, a yearning for excitement, a thirst for accomplishment: All of these can inspire us to take risks, develop attachments, adhere to principles, and pursue interests that some might deem unusual, chancy, or irrational.

It's been said that it's better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a lamb. P I'd say that both of those are more than a bit extreme for my taste, so personally, I'd prefer to live maybe 50 or 60 years as something in the middle of the food chain wink --something that is occasionally valiant, but not stupid, and self-preserving, but not shut in.

Simply put, a good life is typically one that establishes a balanced marriage between quality and longevity.
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#378901 - 04/23/09 01:04 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: TrojZyr]
Armageddon Offline


Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 30
If any one has a question on any of the branches of armed service you can send me a private message.
I can get you the answer right then, or at least by the next day.


~Armageddon skull
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#378904 - 04/23/09 02:04 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: TheDegenerate]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
the enemy? Why would I consider the governments enemies my enemies? They have done nothing to me, why would I even consider killing them? Nationalism is sheepish, not individualistic. It creates the mentality that people in other countries are enemies and different. The only people who have to worry about being invaded and their freedom being taken from them are in third world countries or some countries in the middle east. That's the only situation where your claim of "preventing enemies invading and taking over" stands. Everywhere else, its just an imposed deception. Its always the richer industrialized nations who invade some poorer country. The strong dominating the weak... If you as a government official can convince your soldiers that they are "defending" their loved ones back home, that they are killing the enemies of their society who wish to hurt them and their families, and instill some pride in them about being part of said country, then you essentially have mind control on them to do whatever you want them too. You can invade another country while your soldiers believe that they are killing the "enemy". Oh but wait, governments never manipulate people and should be trusted right?

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#378905 - 04/23/09 02:07 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Armageddon]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
As many people here may know, I am currently in my last 4 months of my second tour in Iraq.

My primary job is that of Psychological Operations, but most of the time I have been convoying. I have been shot at, I have been in a vehicle on more than one occassion when it was hit with an IED or RPG, I have shot people, and no matter how much I don't care for people, it is never a good experience. Also, even if you are behind a desk, you are still not safe from mortars.

Also, to the original poster, the MOS you recieve is based off of your ASVAB score, you do not just choose what you want. If you score high enough, however, and based on your education, you do have a wider range of Military Occupational Specialties to choose from.

As far as why anyone would want to join, it does instill pride in one's self. I know that I am one of the less than 1% of the United States population to serve, I am proud in the fact I can, and have, done things that you couldn't believe unless you went through it.

Not to mention I have fired weapons that some people haven't even seen before, much less have fired.

It is not so much of the idea of "patriotism" or anything of the such, that I joined. It was because I realized that this is, in a sense, the modern equivalent to the Spartan, Trojans, and other Warriors of the past.

I find it amusing how people will have admiration for those that I just mentioned, but will disparage the Armed Forces. Yes, we do have unfavorable types within our ranks, and it is also true that we no long wield swords or axes and shields. But what it comes down to is that the only things that really changed are the weapons involved.

To those on here who are serving, and will be serving, in fields that put one's well being at stake, no matter what country, I salute you!

To Terrenial I say: You are a shit-disturber!

Edit reason: addition of text


Edited by SomethingLikEvil (04/23/09 02:16 AM)
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#378907 - 04/23/09 02:09 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Dorian_Grey]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Its true that there are safer branches of the military that you can get lots of benefits from, and in that case I agree that it might be a good idea to join. My main point is about the front line soldiers, as Charlie R stated this topic is about :

"Sorry, I really should have specified that I meant a combat MOS or at least one that is battling on the front lines."


In other words, the people most at risk of losing their lives.

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#378914 - 04/23/09 03:58 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
inky Offline


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 103
Loc: USA
Terrenial:

First of all let me reiterate something I originally posted.

The military trains for one thing...war.

The "safe" jobs in the military only translate into how far you are from the front lines. If the need is there than a desk will be waiting for you somewhere near the battlefield.
Even the Coast Gaurd has an extremely dangerous job in certain areas of the country.

If you want to argue politics, FIND ANOTHER FORUM!!

I am a former United States Marine. I was with the 2nd unit to cross the border when "the long war" began. When I got home there were no parades, just a bunch of braying sheep that sound alot like...YOU.

If you dont like how the country is run then vote. If that doesn't suit you then find a country you like and move. Either way if you insist on being a pretentious scumbag than just shut up.

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#378915 - 04/23/09 03:58 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Ebenezer Scrooge Offline


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 140
Loc: New England
Ever think of joining the reserves and becoming a water treatment specialist? whistle




Why do I feel as if I'm going to be the only one who gets this? lol
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#378916 - 04/23/09 04:11 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Ebenezer Scrooge]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
No, worries, you aren't alone there.

He might have what it takes to burn the shit barrels.
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#378929 - 04/23/09 06:10 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: SomethingLikEvil]
Torrent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Texas
There is risk in everything you do, all day long, every day of the week...

The soldiers who join a combat MOS are on the frontlines the same amount as everyone else... There really is no "safe" job in the military. No matter what service you join, your primary job is to be a combatant...

That said, the word you should pay particular attention to is "job"... The military is a job. The government doesn't brainwash people into doing their dirty work... People are broken down to get rid of old habits and then rebuilt as fighters. One volunteers to join the military; they aren't forced (at least haven't been for a long time). It doesn't matter what your job is because there is always going to be risk. As far as statistics go, one is probably safer downrange than driving down the highway in their hometown. The survival rate for wounded warriors is near 100% these days which makes it that much more appealing to join. Not to mention the benefits… Free Dental, health, and life insurance; free school; tax free money; world travel; and many opportunities to truly LIVE your life.

Self preservation may be the highest law, but it isn’t the only law. If you don’t LIVE your life to the fullest, then why live it at all?
I am a U.S. Army Paratrooper. I jump from many kinds of aircraft throughout the year. Is there a risk of death involved? Absolutely… Why do I do it? Because I am living my life and am highly trained to perform this task well, not to mention I get paid for it. Risk is involved, but that is why we train so hard. The more you practice something, the better you become. If your job is killing people, you practice and you become good at it, thus lessening the risk that is actually involved. Just because everyone in the Matrix is deadly accurate with a pistol from 400 meters doesn’t mean that shit happens every day in real life…
How is joining the military satanic?
It becomes satanic when a Satanist makes it so.

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#378931 - 04/23/09 06:42 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Lyra]
DCLXVI Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 1064
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Lyra
And I'm a woman, so I can't even be put into actual combat.




I have two friends who would differ with you on that statement.


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#378936 - 04/23/09 06:57 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: DCLXVI]
Torrent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Texas
There are no women in my battalion, but women are in combat all the time. They may not be put in combat, but that doesn't mean it doesn't find them.

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#378950 - 04/23/09 08:31 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: SomethingLikEvil]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: SomethingLikEvil
...I have been shot at, I have been in a vehicle on more than one occassion when it was hit with an IED or RPG, I have shot people, and no matter how much I don't care for people, it is never a good experience...

...As far as why anyone would want to join, it does instill pride in one's self. I know that I am one of the less than 1% of the United States population to serve, I am proud in the fact I can, and have, done things that you couldn't believe unless you went through it.

You are saluted and appreciated as well! I find that those who cannot appreciate the service that you men (and women) accomplish deserve no respect themselves either. Indeed the American soldier of today is the modern equivalent of a Spartan or Trojan warrior.

However, aren't there other things you can do to instill pride in yourself which does not place you at harm? Or if it is a manner of public service, how about becoming a policeman or fireman? Sure, those jobs may place you at harm as well, but not as much as going to war.

It still baffles me that a Satanist would want to risk his self-preservation for an "extreme sport" or civil work.


Edited by Favenris (04/23/09 08:32 AM)
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#378951 - 04/23/09 08:36 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: DCLXVI]
RustySpring Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1109
I think I love your friends. crossbones witch

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#378953 - 04/23/09 09:05 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: J. Favenris]
Torrent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Favenris


It still baffles me that a Satanist would want to risk his self-preservation for an "extreme sport" or civil work.


Satanism isn't a religion led by rules. It's a religion where each person interprets and applies the teachings according to their lifestyle. Self preservation is the highest law according to the Satanic bible. This isn't a rule, but is more of a guideline for each person to interpret on their own, and while it is the highest law in the SB, it may not be the highest law according to the individual.

If Satanists had to follow a set of rules to be Satanists, we wouldn't be Satanists...


Edited by Torrent (04/23/09 09:09 AM)

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#378955 - 04/23/09 09:21 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Torrent]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
First off, I want to thank Favenris for the compliment in the beginning on his response. I also want to add that Torrent has nailed it on the head. It is up to each one of us, as Satanists, to decide upon our priorities.

I would also like to say that I like your sig Torrent, I am a huge fan of the Sith. I have the books, the figures (which I do play with), and am expecting a custom one based off a Sith Lord I created to arrive in the mail soon.
_________________________
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#378968 - 04/23/09 11:43 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Branwyn]
Herr_S Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Mordor
I don't think anyone joins the army because they want to die.

There may be several reasons for why a Satanist join the army. Pride, money, the action, personal development, revenge, to protect what he loves, etc. etc.

Sometimes you take risks that may kill you. You can't live without the risk of death. Actually you are going to die, some time. It's up to you how you want to live your life. Driving a car as someone has mentioned can also be fatal, does that mean all Satanist avoid cars like the plague? Of course it's not a good idea to put your life at an unnecessary risk, but you're always at the risk of death. That's why you need to go out there and live your life at the fullest, and some people choose to do that in the army.
_________________________
Each misdirected act of compassion is a waste of magical energy.

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#378972 - 04/23/09 12:15 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: SomethingLikEvil]
Sideshowtuper Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 464
Loc: NY, USA
Originally Posted By: SomethingLikEvil
Not to mention I have fired weapons that some people haven't even seen before, much less have fired.


Exactly, I can't think of a civilian job where you're going to get to fire a MRK 19


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- Samuel Butler


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#378974 - 04/23/09 12:31 PM Why did I join the Military ? [Re: Charlie R]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
First of all, in my country it's illegal not to join the Military. So that's a good enough reason by itself.
However about 30% ignore this law and get away with it pretty easy.

To me, like it has been said here- it's a matter of pride first of all.
The population of people who do not enlist to the Military is mainly made out of orthodox Jews, pacifistic hippies, weak spoiled brats and mentally/physically diseased.
Since I am strong, and I don't think my beliefs make me special or above the law- it would be beneath me to escape service.

But Israel is a very different example to most Militaries… if not all.
The fact that we live in a country surrounded by enemies and wars happen right at home makes the value of self preservation much more apparent when enlisting; if we do not take up the responsibility and join the Military, we will not survive. It's as simple as that.
I don't like tossing my own responsibility upon someone else, like many do.

Aside from that, I did learn a lot since I've enlisted and I got the chance to have amazing experiences I'd never have otherwise. I also acquired social skills I would have no reason to develop if I wasn't stuck in other people's asses 24/7.
I also know how to shoot, disarm and clean a M16 =)

My job is a desk job, although we do have women in combat units (the IDF tries hard to be female-friendly and even gay friendly). But I'm satisfied with my position.
I got to meet many officers from all over the world (a lot of American soldiers too) and work with people of different cultures and backgrounds.
As a person fascinated by psychology and anthropology, I find it to be a great job.

Of course, I had my fair share of rockets falling down around me during the last war, especially since I was on the Gaza boarder and witnessed it Live.
Here you don't have to be a combat soldier to risk your life, you just have to be in the wrong part of Israel in the wrong time =p



Edited by The_Lightning (04/23/09 12:57 PM)
_________________________
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#378978 - 04/23/09 12:56 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Torrent]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Torrent
This isn't a rule, but is more of a guideline for each person to interpret on their own, and while it is the highest law in the SB, it may not be the highest law according to the individual.


The underlined sentence made things much more clear for me. Some people choose to enter those situations, and for their own reasons. I see the Satanic quality in that. Sometimes self-preservation isn't a priority for everyone.

Originally Posted By: Ravenhael


The threat is VERY, VERY real.


The fear of this type of protest coming to America almost makes me want to join the armed forces.

Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
I also know how to shoot, disarm and clean a M16 =)


A valuable skill not shared by many. smile


Edited by Favenris (04/23/09 01:01 PM)
Edit Reason: Added a response to another post.
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#378981 - 04/23/09 01:26 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
We've gotten that question here before. The answer is quite simple.

It is up to each individual Satanist to make a decision based upon his or her own motivations and willingness to take certain risks in exchange for some benefit. This is a religion of individuals . So you see how a cookie-cutter answer like, "A Satanist would never join the military because..." would be inconsistent with what Satanism is all about.
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#378985 - 04/23/09 01:58 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
TBaxter Offline


Registered: 04/21/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Minnesota, USA.
Originally Posted By: Charlie R
Self preservation is the highest law.

If that is one of the cardinal points of Satanism, why would a Satanist ever deliberately put themselves in harms way and literally increase their chance of death or serious injury tenfold by joining the military? Isn't putting yourself in a situation where bullets will be whizzing passed your head the opposite of self preservation?


Self-preservation is indeed the highest law, but not every member of the military will have bullets whizzing past their head. Like Lyra posted, most personnel work "behind the scenes". To my knowledge and understanding, those who join the United States Marine Corps have the highest possibility of being shot at. Why would they want such a thing?

"Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
-Winston Churchill

Originally Posted By: Charlie R
I understand that people have many reasons for joining the military, and sadly many join because they feel they have no other option. But I doubt a Satanist would ever find themselves in that situation.


Don't be so quick to assume that. Being young, inexperienced, and without a college degree, it's hard to find a job that's decently lucrative. Burger-flipping is an option, but I don't think I could bring myself to that level (no offense to those in that position). The Midwest sucks; if I have to go through nine weeks of intense physical and mental training which will ultimately craft me into a more disciplined and healthier person to escape, then so be it.
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#378989 - 04/23/09 02:38 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: J. Favenris]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I don't think the law of self preservation is only about physically surviving, it also extends to emotional and mental health, and therefore remains the highest law for ALL Satanists.
If to you self fulfillment means taking risks and living on the edge- then it is the self preservation of your own healthy ego to do what makes you feel good.
I personally don't see this contrasting.

The only time where taking risks is unSatanic is when it's more self destructive than self improving, and when it's done with no responsibility or to escape responsibility-
like taking drugs or having unsafe sex with strangers.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#378996 - 04/23/09 03:29 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: The_Lightning]
Branwyn Offline


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 92
Loc: Montana, USA
I find it strange that anyone thinks of a comparison to the Spartans as a positive thing. Any organization that would routinely beat children to death in order to create an elite fighting force is an evil one in my opinion. They may have been the best, but at far, far too high of a cost. I can't help but think they were often the definition of counterproductive pride.

I'm inclined to appreciate the modern military more when they emphasize how they are different than the Spartans: such as it being voluntary, not robbing soldiers of their individuality, not glorifying death too much, etc.

~Branwyn
_________________________
The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

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#378997 - 04/23/09 03:34 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Branwyn]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Branwyn
I find it strange that anyone thinks of a comparison to the Spartans as a positive thing. Any organization that would routinely beat children to death in order to create an elite fighting force is an evil one in my opinion. They may have been the best, but at far, far too high of a cost. I can't help but think they were often the definition of counterproductive pride.

~Branwyn


Oh, I dunno; seemed pretty effective to me.

Times have changed, what was morally correct then is not so much now. It's hard to offer an opinion based on a time that I know nothing about, having not lived among the Spartans so many years ago. I am not saying we should use those tactics now or anything like that, but for the time, it was acceptable.

It's a hard luck world we live in.

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#379003 - 04/23/09 03:47 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: TheDegenerate]
Branwyn Offline


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 92
Loc: Montana, USA
It's true that it was a very different time. Maybe it's just my stubborn sensibilities rooted in my own culture, but when it comes to hurting children, I don't negotiate and I am typically not very open minded.

My boyfriend gave me the book Gates of Fire and I almost could not get through it, it made me too angry and disgusted. His point was that they were not really children, not in that culture, they were soldiers. And that's true, to an extent. But the churning in my stomach and the epinephrine coursing through my veins didn't care. I just hated them.

~Branwyn
_________________________
The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.

-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

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#379004 - 04/23/09 03:55 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
The very same reason you would not join the military.

Each Satanist must chose what they feel is benefitial for themselves. "Rational self interest" is an important element in Satanism.
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#379007 - 04/23/09 04:11 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
There exists in this world people who choose to use violence to resolve disputes or to protect themselves and their kind from such violence.

I am simply acting in the interest my longterm financial security.

I kill people so that I can live.

When war is no longer a viable source of employment, I suppose I will investigate other options that pretty much guarantee work, like a coroner or funeral director.

Perhaps by then I will have saved enough that I no longer need to work.

By the way, one thing I gotten better at in the military is surviving.
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Refuse to die.

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#379012 - 04/23/09 04:44 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Unknown]
Charlie R Offline


Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 64
Okay, I really hope none of the "brainwashed military" comments were directed at me, because I said nothing of the sort. I didn't mention conformism or how the government brainwashes people, or how soldiers can't think for them self, or how radical Islam isn't a threat to our society. It had nothing to do with what I was saying.

I honestly have no clue where you guys are coming from with these sort of replies.

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#379015 - 04/23/09 04:53 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: TheAbysmal]
axide Offline


Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Alabama, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Vitaeviternus
I kill people so that I can live.


I enjoyed this response a lot. Clearly, many people take issue with this perspective, and the ethics of war can be somewhat complicated. It is interesting, however, to think of nations' militaries as corporations in a "violent conflict resolution" industry.

Obviously, there are personal ideals involved in a decision to join. I don't think most people would enlist (in a scenario where enlisting was optional) in their country's military if they preferred the policies and ruling structures of the nations they would be fighting against over their own (no matter HOW good the pay). Then again the Eighth Satanic Rule of the Earth should probably come into play at some point in that regard. Why live in a country you wouldn't defend if necessary (recognizing that the definition of "necessary" varies from person to person)?
_________________________
"If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company."
-Sartre

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#379018 - 04/23/09 04:58 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I think perhaps they are directed at Terrenial.

I would have pointed this out in a PM, but your message box is full.
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reprobate

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#379019 - 04/23/09 04:58 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
I don't know why it should matter so much to somebody who, last I checked, doesn't even consider himself a Satanist. But anyway...

As it says right in The Satanic Bible on page 77, "Each person must decide for himself what his obligations are to his respective friends, family, and community." I don't see anything unsatanic about extending that to "nation".
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#379023 - 04/23/09 05:18 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Considering that some of the Founding Fathers were de facto Satanists that would make this country a Satanic country. Now that's something I think that's worth fighting for, don't you?



Edited by Ushiwakamaru (04/23/09 05:22 PM)

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#379037 - 04/23/09 06:32 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Unknown User]
HGaunt Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/19/08
Posts: 98
Loc: Sin City
Your argument against a Satanist joining the military is not very well founded. I was a soldier in the United States Army for 6 years and did 3 combat tours of Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2 in Baghdad and one in Kirkuk. I have seen very good friends die right in front of me as well as have watched people die at the other end of my weapon. However, as dangerous as war might seem to someone who has never been, it might surprise you to know that you have a higher risk of death crossing the street in NYC than of dying in combat. You also have a greater risk of catching an uncurable, deadly disease using a public restroom in Ohio than you do of catching an IED in Iraq. The only reason it seems any more dangerous is due to the fact that our deaths make the news, yours wouldn't. There are a thousand reasons for and against joining the military, ultimately its up to you, but self preservation is not a very convincing argument.


Edited by Lu_Safyr (04/23/09 06:33 PM)
_________________________
"The natural world is a world of war; the natural man is a warrior; the natural law is tooth and claw. All else is error."

-Ragnar Redbeard(Might is Right)

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#379045 - 04/23/09 07:17 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6363
Looking at the number of casualties from both Iraq and Afghanistan, I would say that the chances of being killed in a modern war are around the same as getting killed in a car accident on the way to work.

Anyways, it doesn't matter if you're in a combat MOS or not. Support personnel go to war the same as any tanker, infantryman, etc. Hell, I'm a freakin' civilian and I've been to Iraq twice and am looking at volunteering to go for a third time.
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Committee for the
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#379058 - 04/23/09 09:01 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: LKRice]
Armageddon Offline


Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 30
Speaking of the military, on the COS website their is an old army pamphlet for chaplins on the members in the COS (DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY PAMPHLET NO. 165-13).
It says it is just for historical reference. My question is, is there a new DA pam on COS, or is there no "offical" stance on COS in the military anymore?

~Armageddon skull
_________________________
The final battle between good and evil? I think not!

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#379060 - 04/23/09 09:20 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Armageddon]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Oh, the pamphlet no longer mentions the CoS.

Neither is Satanism recognized in eMilpo, EDAS, and other Army systems.

You can put it on your ID Tags if you like, however.

Otherwise, Army personnel have the official options of Other, Atheist, or No Religios Preference.

I prefer to put my Penicillin alergy where religion would go.

The only mention I ever made of my affiliation with the CoS is to those that investigate my background and grant my security clearances, and even that was scary/funny.
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#379061 - 04/23/09 09:37 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Lux Occulta Offline


Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 1
I don't generally post on these forums anymore, since I lost the password to my old account nearly a year ago and have no way of retrieving it, however..


I enlisted in the United States Marine Corps last month not for 'patriotism', not for 'nationalism', but for a combination of three things -- accomplishing what I want to do with my life, the warrior ethos, and a job that actually pays pretty damned good -- monetary and otherwise -- if the benefits are reaped properly.

Granted, my MOS is 5811, and I could have enlisted in a 'safer' branch for military police such as the Navy or the Airforce, but I chose the Marines simply because of the greater focus on the ultimate sport.

I have a much greater chance dying in a car crash on my way to college -- if I die in combat, atleast it was with a bang, so to speak.
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#379066 - 04/23/09 11:34 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
9/11 was not a conspiracy.

It happened.

When democracy turns her back, the wolves start nipping at her heels. Vigilance is the necessity of liberty.

When a nation fails to defend itself both actively and proactively, then it is complacent and subject to attack by those that find dispute with whatever ideals that nation might hold. In the case of the Western world, we are considered infidels because we do not bend knee to Allah and freedom is ours by virtue of birth.

Because soldiers have put their lives on the line, both now and in the past, you are free to voice your opinion. Not all nations have that right. Should the United States of America cease to defend that right, it would not take long before America joined their company.

Like Thomas Paine once said: "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

Never let it be said that you are not entitled to your opinion, but at least have some respect for those that granted you the right to speak it.






Edited by Poetaster (04/23/09 11:35 PM)
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#379069 - 04/24/09 12:01 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: J. Favenris]
nob'di Offline


Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 38
I don't think we really have to worry about such bat-shit insane fanatics gaining a foothold here in the US like they have in Britain. This is due to the fact that for the last eight years, anyone like that gets detained at customs and we have a much stricter immigration policy.

Now, as for the original poster's question, I think it is worth noting that if doing a service to others you care about (in this case one's country) gives you a sense of gratification, then it is truly Satanic for you to indulge that wish. Self-preservation isn't that big a deal either. All you have to do to stay faithful to that is to avoid getting shot! crossbones

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#379078 - 04/24/09 01:48 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Poetaster]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Originally Posted By: Poetaster
9/11 was not a conspiracy.

It happened.

When democracy turns her back, the wolves start nipping at her heels. Vigilance is the necessity of liberty.

When a nation fails to defend itself both actively and proactively, then it is complacent and subject to attack by those that find dispute with whatever ideals that nation might hold. In the case of the Western world, we are considered infidels because we do not bend knee to Allah and freedom is ours by virtue of birth.

Because soldiers have put their lives on the line, both now and in the past, you are free to voice your opinion. Not all nations have that right. Should the United States of America cease to defend that right, it would not take long before America joined their company.

Like Thomas Paine once said: "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

Never let it be said that you are not entitled to your opinion, but at least have some respect for those that granted you the right to speak it.






Whether 9/11 was a conspiracy is a whole other topic. Democracy has enemies nipping at her heels? I don't think that's the case for many democracies, just the bullies like the united states which practice modern imperialism while masking it behind some bullshit to convince the public its justified.

You are serious that you believe we are attacked because we don't worship Allah? Face reality, these people don't attack us because we have ideals they don't like, its because we are subtly dominating them until they are provoked to do something. To cover this up, our citizens are fed a self righteous lie that these people are just "insane fundamentalists who hate us for being americans". That way, you don't feel so bad when you pull that trigger.

I totally believe in survival of the fittest nations, but at least know that is what it is, not this public lie used to manipulate people.


Edited by Terrenial (04/24/09 01:50 AM)

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#379079 - 04/24/09 01:51 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:
You are serious that you believe we are attacked because we don't worship Allah? Face reality, these people don't attack us because we have ideals they don't like, its because we are subtly dominating them until they are provoked to do something. To cover this up, our citizens are fed a self righteous lie that these people are just "insane fundamentalists who hate us for being americans". That way, you don't feel so bad when you pull that trigger.


Do you know anything about Islam, anything at all?
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#379080 - 04/24/09 01:54 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Poetaster]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
Terrenial, I believe you're doing more to convince me that joining the military would be a good idea than any military recruiter ever could. It's almost too bad my education plan is holding up well enough that joining remains a distant Plan B. You're filling me up with patriotism and hatred for the USA's enemies.
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#379082 - 04/24/09 02:06 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Azathoth]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Well Azathoth I was never trying to discourage you, nor do I care what you do.

Poetaster, if your going to make the claim that these are indeed crazy enemies, let me ask you if you have in person ever lived in the middle east long enough to come to a rational conclusion of that. Or... have you been informed this by your friends, family, your countries news channels, and other biased sources...
Do you have any Muslim friends?

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#379083 - 04/24/09 02:09 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2336
Loc: East Coast, USA.
So the answer is "no".

Goodnight.
_________________________






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#379084 - 04/24/09 02:11 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: Terrenial
Poetaster, if your going to make the claim that these are indeed crazy enemies, let me ask you if you have in person ever lived in the middle east long enough to come to a rational conclusion of that. Or... have you been informed this by your friends, family, your countries news channels, and other biased sources...
Do you have any Muslim friends?


Not Poetaster, but...

I experimented with Islam on and off for 2-3 years in my teens.

My conclusion: it is a religion for people who hate freedom, hate themselves, and generally hate life. It is tyrannical and anti-human to the core. And yes, my experiences were with "moderate" Islam.

Obviously, most practitioners are born into it or practice a watered down version, like any religion, so this does not apply to every Muslim but the underlying principles are clear enough. It is a dangerous religion.
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#379085 - 04/24/09 02:12 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
Terrenial:

I can say, with two tours, that I am not fond of the Iraqis. They do anything they can to not work, they throw trash wherever (not to mention they burn it in the streets), and they will torture and kill dogs because they are seen as unfavorable. They really add nothing to the world, aside from good archeological studies, and I see no use for them to continue to exist, but that is just my opinion and is not just directed at Iraqis, but at all unproductive, shit-disturbing people, cultures, and societies.
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#379088 - 04/24/09 02:21 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Torrent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 90
Loc: Texas
Terrenial,

Yes, there are many biased sources of information, but at this point it seems like you are getting a bit off topic. This thread was about why Satanists would join the military, not about how the masses are brainwashed. There is a reason we call them sheep...

Whether all people from the middle-east are "crazy" or "insane" is irrelevant. Satanists are supposed to be elite; this means being able to see through the bs and making ones own decision based on ones research and information gathered. This is what seperates "us" from "them."


Edited by Torrent (04/24/09 02:27 AM)

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#379090 - 04/24/09 02:26 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Torrent]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
And there's nothing "Satanic" about his ranting either. I've heard this same rant a hundred times before. "You're brainwashed by the mass media, man...Do you even know any of those you consider the enemy? You're part of the conformist culture controlled by corporations." This is just the rhetoric of another element of herd culture in the US. It uses a false pretense of skepticism to cover its many, dubious underlying assumptions.

Which brings me to a few questions for Terrenial: Do YOU know any Muslims? Where do YOU get your news? Have YOU lived in the middle east?

You will be held to the same standards you expect of others. The "Silver Rule" (Do Unto Others As They Do Unto You) reigns supreme here.
_________________________
"I don't know how masochism became synonymous with masculinity."- Rev. Bill M.

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#379094 - 04/24/09 03:47 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair

Although I personally despise the irrational, religious like fervor of patriotism; as an American citizen I also hate those who would threaten me as an American, for whatever the reason. My biggest concern is always my personal self interest, after all.

Originally Posted By: Terrenial

Face reality, these people don't attack us because we have ideals they don't like, its because we are subtly dominating them until they are provoked to do something.


Who cares? Their motivation is irrelevant. Sane or insane, good reason or not, an enemy is an enemy; period.


"I don't think that's the case for many democracies, just the bullies like the united states which practice modern imperialism while masking it behind some bullshit to convince the public its justified."


So America is supposed to be the big bad guy, huh?
That’s fine by me. I have no need for any good-guy badge.

As for Islam, from what I can tell it seems to be like Christianity only worse. At least most American Christians that I know are willing to succumb to many elements of secular society and Capitalism.

That’s always a good thing as far as I’m concerned!
_________________________


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#379102 - 04/24/09 05:49 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Honestly, at that age, I think I was just drawn to the possibility of violence. The risk to my own safety I considered a fair trade in value. It had nothing to do with civic virtue, or protecting my country, my family or friends. I had other options, did not feel trapped into it, and was just sure I would see some kind of bloody hell.

I just wanted in on the game.

Four years of the USMC infantry and I was ready to go home. I don't see what is un-Satanic about that. I did what I wanted, lived to tell the tale; even got a good cookie for not getting sent to the brig, and an Honorable discharge. Never once did I see combat, and by the end of it, I didn't mind.


Edited by Jack_Lantern (04/24/09 05:49 AM)
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#379109 - 04/24/09 07:37 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I realize that the main thrust of the question is why someone would knowingly put themselves in danger. The same question could be asked about professional athletes, hunters and people who enjoy walking around large cities.

Another version of the question may be why someone would do something that did not seem to put themselves first. The same could be said about marriage, having children or teaching. The simple answer is they personally get satisfaction from doing so. I have never been in the service. I imagine that the challenges would give someone who enjoys achieving a great deal of satisfaction.
_________________________
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#379112 - 04/24/09 07:55 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: nob'di]
ruraldean Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 227
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: DoubtingThomas
I don't think we really have to worry about such bat-shit insane fanatics gaining a foothold here in the US like they have in Britain. This is due to the fact that for the last eight years, anyone like that gets detained at customs and we have a much stricter immigration policy.



Not to be picky here, but even over here in England customs officials tend to stop and detain Middle-Eastern types who get of planes with bloody great placards proclaiming "Death to the Infidels".

And you can stop anyone you want getting in - the problem is that the people in the photos are almost certainly second generation immigrants, born here not imported.

The only way any immigration policy would solve our problem here is if we had a deportation policy which allowed us to deport people born here on the basis of their parentage alone. I won't hold my breath.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

"The pipe draws wisdom from the lips of the philosopher, and shuts up the mouth of the foolish; it generates a style of conversation, contemplative, thoughtful, benevolent, and unaffected..."

-William Makepeace Thackeray, from The Social Pipe
http://ruraldean.wordpress.com

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#379123 - 04/24/09 10:42 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Azathoth]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Azathoth

I experimented with Islam on and off for 2-3 years in my teens.


What the hell does "experimented with Islam" mean?

You read a book and bowed to mecca a few times or put electrodes on it?
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#379126 - 04/24/09 10:58 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10580
Loc: England
This thread has become rather long and I haven't sifted through it, so forgive me if this has already been touched upon.

But I think it a more reaching question to ask is how someone of, say, the Christian faith would integrate joining the military machine without contravining the fundamental tenets of his religion?

As Patton said, "the object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

The ten commandments aside, I would have thought that in itself is something a Satanist would comprehend far more than a Christian, whose religion asserts the practice of self-sacrifice; turning the other cheek.





_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#379127 - 04/24/09 10:58 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Svengali]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Originally Posted By: Svengali
Originally Posted By: Azathoth

I experimented with Islam on and off for 2-3 years in my teens.


What the hell does "experimented with Islam" mean?

You read a book and bowed to mecca a few times or put electrodes on it?


LMFAO!

Maybe he was "Allah Curious"?

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#379128 - 04/24/09 11:01 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Unknown User]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Allah doesn't fit, I think I'm a size 13.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#379129 - 04/24/09 11:02 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Svengali]
Descendant Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 262
Loc: Inland Empire, Ca
Originally Posted By: Svengali
Originally Posted By: Azathoth

I experimented with Islam on and off for 2-3 years in my teens.


What the hell does "experimented with Islam" mean?

You read a book and bowed to mecca a few times or put electrodes on it?


Magister,

Thank you for a good laugh, I almost pissed my pants when I read this!
_________________________
"Jealousy is an emotion often found in individuals whose estimation of their own worth exceeds their achievements."- from "The Satanic Scriptures" by Peter H. Gilmore

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#379149 - 04/24/09 06:11 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Svengali]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: Svengali
Originally Posted By: Azathoth

I experimented with Islam on and off for 2-3 years in my teens.


What the hell does "experimented with Islam" mean?

You read a book and bowed to mecca a few times or put electrodes on it?


Lol. My "experiment" with Islam (among other religions) probably falls in the same category as when people say they "experimented" with drugs- something that would have been best left to the experts.

Long story short, I read some extremely heterodox Sufi poetry and assumed that it contained the "true essence of Islam," because it sounded good. I further was interested in Islam because of my attachment to the Orientalist aesthetic, among other factors. Then, I spent quite a bit of time pounding my head into a metaphorical wall until I realized Islam was a stupid religion that's "essence" wasn't joyful or life-affirming at all.

It was part of a phase of my life when I was obsessed with Abrahamic prophetic lineage. My main concerns in life were whether Jesus was qualified as the Messiah, Muhammad could qualify as a Prophet or if the Jews had everything right. So I tried out all three of the Abrahamic religions (plus Bahai and Sikhism) until I realized none of them worked in real life or even made sense. It was a lot of wasted time but I learned a lot about logical (and illogical) thinking in the process.
_________________________
"I don't know how masochism became synonymous with masculinity."- Rev. Bill M.

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#379158 - 04/24/09 10:02 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Self preservation is the highest law indeed.

And I also agree that being in the military increases the level of danger on a person's life.

But it's also true that a harsh environment makes you stronger. To see a Satanist who joins the military as someone voluntarily putting himself in harm's way is to look only at one side of the coin. Combat training and experience would pose risks for the Satanist, but it would also forge him into a much stronger individual.

I'm sure many see their experience in the military as a period of fast growth where body and mind is fine tuned into a powerful fighting machine.

So the decision to join the Army poses both a risk and a benefit for the individual. It is up to everyone to decide if it is worth. I have personally known several soldiers who say they gained more from the army than the army gained from them.



There is also another side to this dilemma, the Historical one.

Under normal circumstances going to war is more dangerous than staying home.

But at some particular moments and places in history, the battlefield has been the safest place to be. Empires rise and fall but armies remain. At some moments of turmoil the army has been the only thing remaining after societies have succumbed to chaos. And some times the army has been the one who builds the next empire over the ashes of the previous. So in a case like this being the army would be the smart move.

Of course, the chances of that particular situation happening during our lifetimes are up to speculation. Who knows?
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#379170 - 04/24/09 10:48 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: HGaunt]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>it might surprise you to know that you have a higher risk of death crossing the street in NYC than of dying in combat.

In Iraq, perhaps. In Vietnam or Korea, no.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379171 - 04/24/09 10:55 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Do you have any Muslim friends?

Poetaster’s remarks maybe a bit unfounded. Note the “maybe”.

But to ask the question, “Do you have any Muslim friends?” is a weak counter argument. I hear that from people who try to argue against racism, “Do you have any black friends?” If the answer is no, then the questioner now has poor evidence to support his own opinion, no matter if it is unfounded in the first place.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379172 - 04/24/09 11:02 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Old_Pig]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Indeed.

Experience involves some kind of risk, be it more mundane or more critical.

There is never any kind of real achievement without some kind of risk involved (Besides some solitude hobbies).

Hell, without risk life would be one boring ass place.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379192 - 04/25/09 05:00 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Discipline]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Well I agree that it is a weak argument, but Its just a simple start to see if at least Poemaster has met some of these supposedly "crazy fundamentalists". I do have some Muslim friends who are decent people and in no way fit the stereotype. This is because I live in San Francisco which is a very international city that accepts all cultures. The more exposure I have to other culture, the more I see the fundamental similarities of all humans.

I think that Satanism does not support racism or hatred towards different cultures as some people have demonstrated here. Every human being has the power to be responsible/intelligent/talented no matter where they come from or the color of their skin. Its quick, easy and ignorant to hate an entire culture that you know little about.

Have you ever made a business deal with a Muslim and they cheated you? Did Muslim's ever break into your house and steal everything and rape your wife holding a gun to your head?
Most likely not, but yet you hate them as if they had personally done something to you. If your going to hate someone, hate them as an individual, otherwise you are hating them because you're being used. If someone can convince you to hate another human being who has done nothing to you, they are in effect using you for their own agenda.




Edited by Terrenial (04/25/09 05:06 AM)

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#379197 - 04/25/09 05:38 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Now since everyone is saying that there is not that big a risk of dying in war and being in a battlefield is just about as risky as crossing a street in NYC, let me give some real statistics about world war 2, the most recent large scale war.

16,112,566 Served from the U.S., and 405,339 casualties
That's about 1 in every 39 people died. 1 out of every 39 people who cross the street do not die, get your statistics straight.
And thats just the people who died, on top of that there were 671,846 wounded.
So in total, about 1 in every 15 people either died or came out wounded. And I know some of you have seen those battle wounds...

Add in: Turns out that count doesn't include prisoners of war or the still missing, which is an additional 194,879. That makes the new chance 1 in 12 people(I consider being a prisoner of war to be a pretty shitty experience)

And even if they didn't get injured, captured or wounded, do you think the experience of seeing their best friends being blown to bits, having to survive in extreme conditions and feeling the hate of someone shooting at them trying to kill them doesn't mess them up psychologically? PTSD says otherwise


Edited by Terrenial (04/25/09 06:05 AM)

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#379198 - 04/25/09 05:55 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Terrenial
Have you ever made a business deal with a Muslim and they cheated you? Did Muslim's ever break into your house and steal everything and rape your wife holding a gun to your head?
Most likely not, but yet you hate them as if they had personally done something to you. If your going to hate someone, hate them as an individual, otherwise you are hating them because you're being used. If someone can convince you to hate another human being who has done nothing to you, they are in effect using you for their own agenda.




This is a flawed argument. One does not need to let others "do unto you" before making judgments, one only needs to look at stated intents and association. If somebody wears the colors of a well known gang I don't need a personal encounter to be wary of their actions, the burden of proof lies with them to assure me of their peaceful intent.

I don't need to be personally burned at the stake or have had this done to an ancestor of mine to be wary of the catholic church.

In both this case and with islam the actions of the group of people is a matter of public record, their belief clearly states how they relate to those who do not embrace their beliefs - I don't need to go through every single person who align themself with these creeds to make sure whether or not they choose to follow these tenets.

If somebody calls himself a scientist I would not say to him "so, this law of gravity - that's just something you people made up a few hundred years ago. Of course you don't really believe that anymore, right?".
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#379200 - 04/25/09 06:01 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
Invalid comparison. WWII was over 60 years ago.
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#379204 - 04/25/09 07:17 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: MagdaGraham]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Are you implying that things have changed so much in 60 years?
WW2 is the last time multiple countries were fighting, whereas all wars since then have been with small countries where things are less chaotic and easier to be safe about.

Some more info about war veterans:
Apparently there are about 18 suicides a day out of the 25,000,000 war vets in the U.S.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/cbsnews_investigates/main4032921.shtml

Now take into account the national suicide rate to have some perspective:
83.8 suicides per day out of 303,824,640, the U.S. population


Edited by Terrenial (04/25/09 07:17 AM)

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#379207 - 04/25/09 07:25 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Also MagdaGraham, here is some more recent statistics about Iraq:

"The Cost to Our Forces in Iraq

3,990: American troops who have died in Iraq since the start of the war. [icasualties.org, 3/17/08]

29,395: Number of U.S. service members that have been wounded in hostile action since the start of U.S. military operations in Iraq. [AP, 3/11/08]

60,000: Number of troops that have been subjected to controversial stop-loss measures--meaning those who have completed service commitments but are forbidden to leave the military until their units return from war. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

5: Number of times the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment has been sent to Iraq. They are the first Marine Corps unit to be sent to Iraq for a fifth time. [San Francisco Chronicle, 2/27/08]

2,100: Number of troops who tried to commit suicide or injure themselves increased from 350 in 2002 to 2,100 last year. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

11.9: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their first Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]

27.2: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their third or fourth Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]"

Taken from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/iraq-casualties-iraq-cos_n_92303.html

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#379208 - 04/25/09 07:34 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: verszou]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
So in other words, your saying there is nothing wrong with hating someone based off associating them with some group? There is a word for this called prejudice. It's also the same mentality that creates racism.

And I fail to find any validity to your claim that Islamic beliefs "relate to those who do not embrace their beliefs"(im guessing your implying they are openly violent and announce this)

Here's a source you might want to read on called top 10 myths about Islam:
"5. Muslims are violent, terrorist extremists
Terrorism cannot be justified under any valid interpretation of the Islamic faith. The entire Qur'an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings. Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against terrorism in all its forms, and offer explanations of misinterpreted or twisted teachings."

Taken from : http://islam.about.com/od/commonmisconceptions/tp/myths.htm

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#379210 - 04/25/09 07:40 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: MagdaGraham]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
Torrenial,

I need you to pull your attention away from whatever shiney object you are looking at for a minute.

You ask if any of us here have known a Muslim, you forgot to specify if any of us met them in the States or in the Middle East. This makes a little bit of a difference.

Muslims who make it to the United States may be rude, but they are intelligent enough to know when to get out of a bad situation.

On the other hand, we have the Muslim living in the Middle East. As I have stated to a ridiculas degree, I am in Iraq. I interact with the populace on a daily basis. These people are dimmer than a two watt lightbulb, they have hardly any "sense" of sanitation, they are detestable dingleberries!

Yes, there are the very few who have some inkling of intelligence, but they are intelligent enough to rise above the trash that is the rest of their people.

Okay, you have met Muslims in the States, they were probably somewhat intelligent, fine and well.

I now reverse your question: Have you ever been to the Middle East, where one can get a more accurate portrait of a culture, and met a muslim there?

And to expand upon Priestess Graham's statement: WW2 was over 60 years ago, they did not have the medical technology available to them that we have now, so it is safe to assume that, yes, there will be more fatalities and injuries then there is now.

Through our advances in medicine and technology, we are now able to save the lives of those who would have been met with certain death 60 years ago. Please, choose a more valid example next time.
_________________________
Resigned -- again.

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#379225 - 04/25/09 09:58 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I did a tour in Iraq; the Muslims there are not the same Muslims you interact with in good old San Fran. There is a difference between attitude and culture.

>>I think that Satanism does not support racism or hatred towards different cultures as some people have demonstrated here.

No, it doesn't support racism. But it does support pragmatic survival and critical analysis. Calling a spade a spade is useful even if it is generalizing.

>>Every human being has the power to be responsible/intelligent/talented no matter where they come from or the color of their skin.

Skin color does not dictate intelligence or talent, but you are incorrect that every human being has the power for responsibility and/or intelligence.

I don't hate gang banger thugs. I just don't trust them and their lot. If the majority of them are black and I still distrust them and I am unwilling to give them the benefit of the doubt, am I a racist? From your stance yes. That is a poor argument I have seen repeated many times. It's PC junk.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379226 - 04/25/09 10:06 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Yes, we are implying things have changed since WWII. Things are not less chaotic or easier. Any current combat veteran can tell you that. It is just technology and communication has improved so greatly that casualties are less and the fire fights are smaller where they only last a few minutes.

And what does that suicide statistic have to do with this discussion?

I am a war veteran and I have no desire to kill myself. And if CBS's statistic is correct then 6570 returning veterans off themselves a year. I doubt that, the statistic is probably far lower. If that was true then there would be a mad rush to "fix" the issue, whatever that fix would be. The media is a poor place to gain any meaningful data.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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