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#379149 - 04/24/09 06:11 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Svengali]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: Svengali
Originally Posted By: Azathoth

I experimented with Islam on and off for 2-3 years in my teens.


What the hell does "experimented with Islam" mean?

You read a book and bowed to mecca a few times or put electrodes on it?


Lol. My "experiment" with Islam (among other religions) probably falls in the same category as when people say they "experimented" with drugs- something that would have been best left to the experts.

Long story short, I read some extremely heterodox Sufi poetry and assumed that it contained the "true essence of Islam," because it sounded good. I further was interested in Islam because of my attachment to the Orientalist aesthetic, among other factors. Then, I spent quite a bit of time pounding my head into a metaphorical wall until I realized Islam was a stupid religion that's "essence" wasn't joyful or life-affirming at all.

It was part of a phase of my life when I was obsessed with Abrahamic prophetic lineage. My main concerns in life were whether Jesus was qualified as the Messiah, Muhammad could qualify as a Prophet or if the Jews had everything right. So I tried out all three of the Abrahamic religions (plus Bahai and Sikhism) until I realized none of them worked in real life or even made sense. It was a lot of wasted time but I learned a lot about logical (and illogical) thinking in the process.
_________________________
"I don't know how masochism became synonymous with masculinity."- Rev. Bill M.

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#379158 - 04/24/09 10:02 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Charlie R]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Self preservation is the highest law indeed.

And I also agree that being in the military increases the level of danger on a person's life.

But it's also true that a harsh environment makes you stronger. To see a Satanist who joins the military as someone voluntarily putting himself in harm's way is to look only at one side of the coin. Combat training and experience would pose risks for the Satanist, but it would also forge him into a much stronger individual.

I'm sure many see their experience in the military as a period of fast growth where body and mind is fine tuned into a powerful fighting machine.

So the decision to join the Army poses both a risk and a benefit for the individual. It is up to everyone to decide if it is worth. I have personally known several soldiers who say they gained more from the army than the army gained from them.



There is also another side to this dilemma, the Historical one.

Under normal circumstances going to war is more dangerous than staying home.

But at some particular moments and places in history, the battlefield has been the safest place to be. Empires rise and fall but armies remain. At some moments of turmoil the army has been the only thing remaining after societies have succumbed to chaos. And some times the army has been the one who builds the next empire over the ashes of the previous. So in a case like this being the army would be the smart move.

Of course, the chances of that particular situation happening during our lifetimes are up to speculation. Who knows?
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#379170 - 04/24/09 10:48 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: HGaunt]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>it might surprise you to know that you have a higher risk of death crossing the street in NYC than of dying in combat.

In Iraq, perhaps. In Vietnam or Korea, no.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379171 - 04/24/09 10:55 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Do you have any Muslim friends?

Poetaster’s remarks maybe a bit unfounded. Note the “maybe”.

But to ask the question, “Do you have any Muslim friends?” is a weak counter argument. I hear that from people who try to argue against racism, “Do you have any black friends?” If the answer is no, then the questioner now has poor evidence to support his own opinion, no matter if it is unfounded in the first place.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379172 - 04/24/09 11:02 PM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Old_Pig]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Indeed.

Experience involves some kind of risk, be it more mundane or more critical.

There is never any kind of real achievement without some kind of risk involved (Besides some solitude hobbies).

Hell, without risk life would be one boring ass place.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379192 - 04/25/09 05:00 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Discipline]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Well I agree that it is a weak argument, but Its just a simple start to see if at least Poemaster has met some of these supposedly "crazy fundamentalists". I do have some Muslim friends who are decent people and in no way fit the stereotype. This is because I live in San Francisco which is a very international city that accepts all cultures. The more exposure I have to other culture, the more I see the fundamental similarities of all humans.

I think that Satanism does not support racism or hatred towards different cultures as some people have demonstrated here. Every human being has the power to be responsible/intelligent/talented no matter where they come from or the color of their skin. Its quick, easy and ignorant to hate an entire culture that you know little about.

Have you ever made a business deal with a Muslim and they cheated you? Did Muslim's ever break into your house and steal everything and rape your wife holding a gun to your head?
Most likely not, but yet you hate them as if they had personally done something to you. If your going to hate someone, hate them as an individual, otherwise you are hating them because you're being used. If someone can convince you to hate another human being who has done nothing to you, they are in effect using you for their own agenda.




Edited by Terrenial (04/25/09 05:06 AM)

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#379197 - 04/25/09 05:38 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Now since everyone is saying that there is not that big a risk of dying in war and being in a battlefield is just about as risky as crossing a street in NYC, let me give some real statistics about world war 2, the most recent large scale war.

16,112,566 Served from the U.S., and 405,339 casualties
That's about 1 in every 39 people died. 1 out of every 39 people who cross the street do not die, get your statistics straight.
And thats just the people who died, on top of that there were 671,846 wounded.
So in total, about 1 in every 15 people either died or came out wounded. And I know some of you have seen those battle wounds...

Add in: Turns out that count doesn't include prisoners of war or the still missing, which is an additional 194,879. That makes the new chance 1 in 12 people(I consider being a prisoner of war to be a pretty shitty experience)

And even if they didn't get injured, captured or wounded, do you think the experience of seeing their best friends being blown to bits, having to survive in extreme conditions and feeling the hate of someone shooting at them trying to kill them doesn't mess them up psychologically? PTSD says otherwise


Edited by Terrenial (04/25/09 06:05 AM)

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#379198 - 04/25/09 05:55 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1813
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Terrenial
Have you ever made a business deal with a Muslim and they cheated you? Did Muslim's ever break into your house and steal everything and rape your wife holding a gun to your head?
Most likely not, but yet you hate them as if they had personally done something to you. If your going to hate someone, hate them as an individual, otherwise you are hating them because you're being used. If someone can convince you to hate another human being who has done nothing to you, they are in effect using you for their own agenda.




This is a flawed argument. One does not need to let others "do unto you" before making judgments, one only needs to look at stated intents and association. If somebody wears the colors of a well known gang I don't need a personal encounter to be wary of their actions, the burden of proof lies with them to assure me of their peaceful intent.

I don't need to be personally burned at the stake or have had this done to an ancestor of mine to be wary of the catholic church.

In both this case and with islam the actions of the group of people is a matter of public record, their belief clearly states how they relate to those who do not embrace their beliefs - I don't need to go through every single person who align themself with these creeds to make sure whether or not they choose to follow these tenets.

If somebody calls himself a scientist I would not say to him "so, this law of gravity - that's just something you people made up a few hundred years ago. Of course you don't really believe that anymore, right?".
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#379200 - 04/25/09 06:01 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
Invalid comparison. WWII was over 60 years ago.
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#379204 - 04/25/09 07:17 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: MagdaGraham]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Are you implying that things have changed so much in 60 years?
WW2 is the last time multiple countries were fighting, whereas all wars since then have been with small countries where things are less chaotic and easier to be safe about.

Some more info about war veterans:
Apparently there are about 18 suicides a day out of the 25,000,000 war vets in the U.S.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/cbsnews_investigates/main4032921.shtml

Now take into account the national suicide rate to have some perspective:
83.8 suicides per day out of 303,824,640, the U.S. population


Edited by Terrenial (04/25/09 07:17 AM)

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#379207 - 04/25/09 07:25 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Also MagdaGraham, here is some more recent statistics about Iraq:

"The Cost to Our Forces in Iraq

3,990: American troops who have died in Iraq since the start of the war. [icasualties.org, 3/17/08]

29,395: Number of U.S. service members that have been wounded in hostile action since the start of U.S. military operations in Iraq. [AP, 3/11/08]

60,000: Number of troops that have been subjected to controversial stop-loss measures--meaning those who have completed service commitments but are forbidden to leave the military until their units return from war. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

5: Number of times the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment has been sent to Iraq. They are the first Marine Corps unit to be sent to Iraq for a fifth time. [San Francisco Chronicle, 2/27/08]

2,100: Number of troops who tried to commit suicide or injure themselves increased from 350 in 2002 to 2,100 last year. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

11.9: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their first Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]

27.2: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their third or fourth Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]"

Taken from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/iraq-casualties-iraq-cos_n_92303.html

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#379208 - 04/25/09 07:34 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: verszou]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
So in other words, your saying there is nothing wrong with hating someone based off associating them with some group? There is a word for this called prejudice. It's also the same mentality that creates racism.

And I fail to find any validity to your claim that Islamic beliefs "relate to those who do not embrace their beliefs"(im guessing your implying they are openly violent and announce this)

Here's a source you might want to read on called top 10 myths about Islam:
"5. Muslims are violent, terrorist extremists
Terrorism cannot be justified under any valid interpretation of the Islamic faith. The entire Qur'an, taken as a complete text, gives a message of hope, faith, and peace to a faith community of one billion people. The overwhelming message is that peace is to be found through faith in God, and justice among fellow human beings. Muslim leaders and scholars do speak out against terrorism in all its forms, and offer explanations of misinterpreted or twisted teachings."

Taken from : http://islam.about.com/od/commonmisconceptions/tp/myths.htm

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#379210 - 04/25/09 07:40 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: MagdaGraham]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
Torrenial,

I need you to pull your attention away from whatever shiney object you are looking at for a minute.

You ask if any of us here have known a Muslim, you forgot to specify if any of us met them in the States or in the Middle East. This makes a little bit of a difference.

Muslims who make it to the United States may be rude, but they are intelligent enough to know when to get out of a bad situation.

On the other hand, we have the Muslim living in the Middle East. As I have stated to a ridiculas degree, I am in Iraq. I interact with the populace on a daily basis. These people are dimmer than a two watt lightbulb, they have hardly any "sense" of sanitation, they are detestable dingleberries!

Yes, there are the very few who have some inkling of intelligence, but they are intelligent enough to rise above the trash that is the rest of their people.

Okay, you have met Muslims in the States, they were probably somewhat intelligent, fine and well.

I now reverse your question: Have you ever been to the Middle East, where one can get a more accurate portrait of a culture, and met a muslim there?

And to expand upon Priestess Graham's statement: WW2 was over 60 years ago, they did not have the medical technology available to them that we have now, so it is safe to assume that, yes, there will be more fatalities and injuries then there is now.

Through our advances in medicine and technology, we are now able to save the lives of those who would have been met with certain death 60 years ago. Please, choose a more valid example next time.
_________________________
Resigned -- again.

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#379225 - 04/25/09 09:58 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I did a tour in Iraq; the Muslims there are not the same Muslims you interact with in good old San Fran. There is a difference between attitude and culture.

>>I think that Satanism does not support racism or hatred towards different cultures as some people have demonstrated here.

No, it doesn't support racism. But it does support pragmatic survival and critical analysis. Calling a spade a spade is useful even if it is generalizing.

>>Every human being has the power to be responsible/intelligent/talented no matter where they come from or the color of their skin.

Skin color does not dictate intelligence or talent, but you are incorrect that every human being has the power for responsibility and/or intelligence.

I don't hate gang banger thugs. I just don't trust them and their lot. If the majority of them are black and I still distrust them and I am unwilling to give them the benefit of the doubt, am I a racist? From your stance yes. That is a poor argument I have seen repeated many times. It's PC junk.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#379226 - 04/25/09 10:06 AM Re: Why would a Satanist ever join the military? [Re: Terrenial]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Yes, we are implying things have changed since WWII. Things are not less chaotic or easier. Any current combat veteran can tell you that. It is just technology and communication has improved so greatly that casualties are less and the fire fights are smaller where they only last a few minutes.

And what does that suicide statistic have to do with this discussion?

I am a war veteran and I have no desire to kill myself. And if CBS's statistic is correct then 6570 returning veterans off themselves a year. I doubt that, the statistic is probably far lower. If that was true then there would be a mad rush to "fix" the issue, whatever that fix would be. The media is a poor place to gain any meaningful data.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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