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Rituals & Dogma. #381718
05/18/09 06:01 AM
05/18/09 06:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon
Favenris Offline OP

Favenris  Offline OP


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon
When I come across a thread in one of my favorite forums about Satanism, for my own benefit, and in no way attempting to be a martyr or representative of the Church of Satan, I like to politely correct people on what misconceptions they may have. Most of the time I come across someone saying silly things like "Satanism is just inverse Christianity" or "The Church of Satan just wants your money" which don't really deserve more than an eye roll.

However, today I came across a good post someone made and I replied to it. I was wondering if people could tell me if I acknowledged Satanism accurately, and also, what response would you give to those who do not classify Satanism as a religion?

This isn't just about my response to some message forum. smile It's about all of us as a Satanic mutual admiration society saying why Satanism is a religion, and not just a philosophy.

It looks like you have done your research well, but please allow me to correct you on a couple of things.


Originally Posted By: "Amduscias"
However, there are unresolved issues I have with the Church of Satan. How can you call it a religion when it doesn't actually believe in Satan? Satanist's say "You are your own God." That's great, but it doesn't work to have a religion devoted to worshipping yourself. First problem: I don't feel Satanism qualifies as a religion. A philosophy yes, but not a religion.


Satanism is a religion because it contains dogma and rituals. Dogma does not necessarily need to involve something outside of science. To the Satanist, the doctrine of Social Darwinism comes to him naturally, either through private study or actual experience. While the herd tries to delude itself into thinking that universal solidarity is possible, most of us do not.

"War is eternal. War is universal. There is no beginning, and there is no peace. Nor could there ever be, even if the beast man desired it so... every living thing [maintains] its existence exclusively by depriving other living things of theirs." - Richard Wagner (If I'm not mistaken)

Rituals, although not necessary but useful tools, fulfill the second portion of what constitutes a religion. This does not need to be the standard 13-step rituals. In fact, if one reads The Satanic Bible, Satanic magic necessitates personal touch. You need to surround yourself with devices that speak to you individually.


Hopefully this covers the religion portion of your statement.


Originally Posted By: "Amduscias"
The second problem I have is that EVERYONE affiliated with the Church who has ever been asked a question about Satanism or asked to explain Satanism ends up quoting Anton LaVey almost verbatim. Can't you even say something in your own words, you have to pull quote after quote from the Satanic Bible?


Although there are many philosophies which Anton LaVey himself borrowed, and others which run parallel to Satanism, Satanism will always be firstly codified by Anton LaVey. If there are things that you see reflected of yourself in the religion, but not everything within it, then you may recognize yourself as having Satanic qualities, but not being a Satanist (which is not a bad thing at all!).

That's why many people quote him because he phrases ideas so eloquently. However, beware for "black bible thumpes" who can quote anything by him but not put Satanic theory into action...

Well, I hope I provided you with a Satanist who did not need to quote a single thing from The Satanic Bible (myself). Feel free to respond with more polite arguments against Satanism, as you have done already, and I'll try to reply with the best of my knowledge.


Any thoughts?


"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #381751
05/18/09 01:30 PM
05/18/09 01:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 58
Upstate South Carolina, USA
TraceLines Offline
TraceLines  Offline

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Upstate South Carolina, USA
... Like Christians don't quote from the Bible much, right? laugh


Too much zeal clouds judgment.

Lack of zeal results in doing nothing worth judging.
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #381775
05/18/09 05:49 PM
05/18/09 05:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,355
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister
Phineas  Offline
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Several points:

Your reply is well articulated.

As to the one asking the question, maybe they did some research, but it is painfully obvious they did not comprehend what they found.

It is all explained clearly in The Satanic Bible, and further information is found in the COS website.

People like this usually go around in circles, already have their minds made up and end up using up your time, while you gain nothing.

Question to you: have they replied to you, and how was your reply received?


"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #381806
05/18/09 09:09 PM
05/18/09 09:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,976
The Deep South
Old_Pig Offline
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The Deep South
I think your efforts to correct their misconceptions about Satanism are commendable, but unnecessary.

Why waste your time and energy explaining them something that is clearly explained in a book? They can find the information themselves. If they found it and didn’t understand it, then it was not for them. Trying to clarify it for them is pointless, they either get it or they don’t.

Remember… “Don’t smarten a chump”


You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein

Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #381809
05/18/09 09:53 PM
05/18/09 09:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 11,651
New England, USA
Bill_M Offline
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Bill_M  Offline
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New England, USA
You were correct in mentioning what distinguishes a religion from a philosophy, and why Satanism would therefore be a religion. Personally I would have included a few other examples of non-theistic religions (Theravada Buddhism, the Raelian movement, etc.)

Regarding the second accusation, virtually all of the questions that he and others ask about the Church of Satan are probably level "101" type questions that are already answered in The Satanic Bible. When I get questions that go beyond the mundane stuff, then sure, I'll use my own words.


Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)
Morons and idiots. [Re: Favenris] #381819
05/18/09 10:36 PM
05/18/09 10:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,236
Point Nemo in Pacific Ocean
Nemo Offline
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Nemo  Offline
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Point Nemo in Pacific Ocean
Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
-Robert Heinlein

I agree with Bob.

For every simple and direct fact you can offer these kinds of people, they will generate ten new forms of conspiracy theory based on nothing at all.

Losers abound on the internet, spinning out their fantasies, desperate for an audience to make them feel important.

Any moron can pound out this kind of nonsense on a keyboard because, being unemployed (or a minor), they usually have nothing better to do with their time anyway.

Those with any intelligence at all will not search for the opinions of anonymous idiots on the internet.

Those with brains will check things out for themselves and not leap to conclusions based on rumor or innuendo.

It may be satisfying to correct these people but they will never really learn to think just as pigs will never learn to sing.

Those who can think do not need to be corrected.

They do their own homework first.

Just my opinion.

Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #381821
05/18/09 10:44 PM
05/18/09 10:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,000
Pre-Apocalypolis
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock
Roho_the_Rooster  Offline
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Posts: 7,000
Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Favenris


Any thoughts?


Yes.
In time, you will no doubt grow bored with this type of correspondence.
HOWEVER...I am not sure if I remember other posts you have made. Your response does tell a bit about your take on Satanism.
I will be much more apt to be sure to read your posts.

Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Old_Pig] #381825
05/18/09 11:26 PM
05/18/09 11:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon
Favenris Offline OP

Favenris  Offline OP


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tha_Pig
Why waste your time and energy explaining them something that is clearly explained in a book? They can find the information themselves.

This person has not replied yet, but I answered his questions for my own benefit. As I have stated, I usually ignore obvious and mundane questions, or post the Church of Satan’s website as a reply. However, clearly stating that constitutes Satanism as a religion, rather than just a philosophy, made me think. wink It was nice being able to organize that out.

Originally Posted By: Nemo
Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
-Robert Heinlein

An argument against mandatory education said in a single sentence!

Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Personally I would have included a few other examples of non-theistic religions (Theravada Buddhism, the Raelian movement, etc.)

That’s a good idea! I’ve wanted to look into non-theistic religions for a while now. Satanism runs parallel to my own beliefs (and doubts coopdevil) but looking at other secular ideas might be interesting.


"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #381870
05/19/09 03:29 PM
05/19/09 03:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 26
Germany
underworld Offline
underworld  Offline

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 26
Germany
Originally Posted By: Favenris
This person has not replied yet, but I answered his questions for my own benefit.


What benefits do you mean?

I personally don't reply anymore to people not knowing the CoS and trying to argue about it. As stated above, it's just a waste of time for me.

On the other hand: Why even talk about if Satanism is a religion or a philosophy? To me it makes no difference at all. Shall they call it philosophy, shall they call it religion. I don't need this words at all.


If you ask a question, you should never be afraid to hear the answer!
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: underworld] #381877
05/19/09 03:55 PM
05/19/09 03:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,814
Denmark
verszou Offline

verszou  Offline


Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,814
Denmark
Originally Posted By: underworld
What benefits do you mean?


I cannot speak on behalf of Favenris, but his statement makes sense to me. Sometimes it is good to actually carry an argument through, just to test that you can formulate it yourself, i.e. you are not just quoting something, you actually understand the essence of the subject.

In my field, which is computer programming, we often use it as a way to discover bugs. The idea is that you state, in your own words to another programmer what you are trying to do with your program, and in the process of stating that, flaws will become obvious to you. Some say that the other programmer is not needed, but you feel less silly compared to talking to a potted plant or an inanimate object. The process is the benefit, not whether or not the recipient gains any insight ... he or she may still afterwards be none the wiser as to what your program is doing.


While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: verszou] #381880
05/19/09 04:24 PM
05/19/09 04:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,000
Pre-Apocalypolis
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock
Roho_the_Rooster  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,000
Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: verszou
Originally Posted By: underworld
What benefits do you mean?


I cannot speak on behalf of Favenris, but his statement makes sense to me. Sometimes it is good to actually carry an argument through, just to test that you can formulate it yourself, i.e. you are not just quoting something, you actually understand the essence of the subject.





In the first grade, I was told to tell 3 people anything newly learned. If you can do it, it's your's.
In college, I would often tutored. Even though I, and everyone else, assumed I had a firm grasp of the material, I would have Eureka moments while explaining the subject to someone else.
That happens a lot.

Re: Morons and idiots. [Re: Nemo] #382013
05/21/09 02:10 AM
05/21/09 02:10 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4
W
WMDKitty Offline
WMDKitty  Offline
W

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: Nemo
Those who can think do not need to be corrected.

They do their own homework first.


Ah, but even those who think for themselves occasionally need correction, and should welcome it on those occasions -- it's a learning experience, after all!

Re: Morons and idiots. [Re: WMDKitty] #382021
05/21/09 03:39 AM
05/21/09 03:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,236
Point Nemo in Pacific Ocean
Nemo Offline
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Nemo  Offline
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Point Nemo in Pacific Ocean
Quote:
Ah, but even those who think for themselves occasionally need correction, and should welcome it on those occasions...


The critical word here is "should".

Most people do not think for themselves at all.

Those who do will almost always recognize that rumors, especially internet rumors, are completely unreliable and so they will do their homework first.

Hence they do not need "correction".

They are simply not stupid to begin with. wink

Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Roho_the_Rooster] #382532
05/25/09 12:17 AM
05/25/09 12:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon
Favenris Offline OP

Favenris  Offline OP


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 162
Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: verszou
In my field, which is computer programming, we often use it as a way to discover bugs... The process is the benefit, not whether or not the recipient gains any insight ... he or she may still afterwards be none the wiser as to what your program is doing.

Very good analogy! Utilize doubt and make amends to your mistakes...

And you hit my idea right on the spot! To avoid arrogance and, although the phrase might be a little strong, "blind faith" one needs to continually challenge one's own ideas and perhaps along the way you might find that something isn't right, and that's the time to fix it. However, not every idiot that spouts out some incoherent argument demands your attention...

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
In the first grade, I was told to tell 3 people anything newly learned. If you can do it, it's your's.

Hmm. That's good, Roho, but isn't so much "learn" but formulate or organize in my case. Most of the Satanic philosophy I have read has been mine since birth, and Satanism has simply taught me how to produce something out of it. Which has been very helpful, but there was no need to "learn" or "convert" as it has been a reflection of what I've been all along. wink


"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul
Re: Rituals & Dogma. [Re: Favenris] #382661
05/26/09 03:29 PM
05/26/09 03:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 44
USA IA
TranquilChaos Offline
CoS Member
TranquilChaos  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 44
USA IA
I am reminded of an e-mail I got years ago, but how true it still is.

It says...

"Arguing over the internet is like being in the special olympics even if you do win your still a retard"

I relize that this is entirly politically incorrect these days it should say something more like....

"Arguing over the internet is like being a christian even if you succeed your not going to heaven.

Its one thing to mark point for point then take action but, thats discussion not argument.

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