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#382348 - 05/23/09 06:16 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: SomethingLikEvil]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
As I have stated before I have read the book enough times to raise this issue in confidence that the answer is not in the book.
(and books arent a needless killing of trees, unless they are those silly picture story books for children)

My debate is not on whether eating meat is right or wrong, nor about whether satanists do it or not, or whether it is moral for a satanist to do it.

The issue is whether Killing an animal for food is actually properly in the philosophy considering the unnaturalism it has been made into.

Rule #10- Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food

Exact words. Now the killers of the animals are not eating them. They are selling them to others to eat and therefore disobeying that rule. We (meaning everyone who eats meat, not including me) eat the meat and therefore support the disobeyal of that rule.
We may not directly disobey it as we are only eating the meat put forward but they are and we are supporting and continuing that idea. In some way that rule must be interpreted to make it fair for people. I think perhaps the requirement that all peoples kill one animal of each species they plan on eating (pretty extreme and a little off my point but that is a fair solution)

Im sorry if Im annoying people with my arguing but thats what I do and thats what the Satanic philosophy inspires peoples to do anyway, that is argue and challenge things.
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382350 - 05/23/09 06:27 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1262
Loc: Behind You
Reading & understanding are two different things.
What part of meat is food does not make sense to you?

I don't see your posts being anything but shit-disturbing. Also, what is all this "We" business?
Each Satanist is an individual. Their "Morals" are theirs alone.

The answer to all of this is "Responsibility to the Responsible."

rip skull
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#382353 - 05/23/09 06:35 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: tekku]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
We meaning humans obviously. You cannot say you alone eat meat when there is a large collective of people that do so.
Indeed their morals are there own but I dont see how that has relevance to this argument. Responsibility has little to do with this either for this isnt an individual thing at all, itsa a conceptual thing and clarifying this area.
Meat as food is not in question either, its the idea of its place in this philosophy and how we obtain it.
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382355 - 05/23/09 06:41 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: TheDegenerate]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Phosis
Pretty pointless to even ATTEMPT a debate on an issue when you haven't even read and absorbed the basic source material. It helps to have a substantial argument as well as strong points based on your knowledge of the material before doing so.

Why did Anton LaVey say not to harm animals?

Probably because it is COMMON SENSE not to do something that is not only inherently POINTLESS, but completely STUPID and against the law, as well! I'm sure you must at least be aware of the fact that there are IDIOTS out there who think that sacrificing animals will bring them super powers. Would it not be intelligent and rational in a religion called Satanism to differentiate oneself from those slack-jawed Fliparoos? It's very crystal clear that Anton LaVey had the prevention of animal abuse in mind when he wrote that rule.

Sweet jesus...





Thank you for finally making a very valid and relevant point.

Be that as it may, the wording used still leaves debate. I agree that is probably very much the case but still I have made arguments that move away from that to the actual wording used and concept idea.
His original intention now is not in question.
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382356 - 05/23/09 06:43 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Diwanna Offline


Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 128
Loc: Upland
In my opinion from my short time of study of the Satanic way of life, I've come to this conclusion. Satanism is more about responsible indulgence and enjoying life to the fullest than it is about following any specific rule. That means that if enjoying a steak makes me happier than complaining that a person enjoying a steak didn't kill that animal himself, I'm more in tune with the Satanic idea.

Satanism is like playing guitar or a martial art, learn the rules, study hard, then just follow your instincts.
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The Absence of God will bring you comfort. - Jenny Lewis

There is a point in which empirical evidence outweighs your faith. It is then when you must chose to open your eyes, or close them. - Diwanna

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#382357 - 05/23/09 06:46 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Diwanna]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: diwanna
In my opinion from my short time of study of the Satanic way of life, I've come to this conclusion. Satanism is more about responsible indulgence and enjoying life to the fullest than it is about following any specific rule. That means that if enjoying a steak makes me happier than complaining that a person enjoying a steak didn't kill that animal himself, I'm more in tune with the Satanic idea.

Satanism is like playing guitar or a martial art, learn the rules, study hard, then just follow your instincts.



I agree but that doesnt actually answer the issue. The issue is on LaVeys words and the concept they represent. No matter how irrelevant this issue is to a satanists life I think it is still an issue that needs addressing, and people continuously seem to be moving around it in this thread. Please focus on the issue I have stated.
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382358 - 05/23/09 06:47 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3580
Loc: Calgary
It's too bad that your own lack of common sense failed to prove sufficient enough to answer your question, and that it took you TWO PAGES to finally get the point.

You do understand that this forum is for practicing Satanists, and is NOT a debate club, I hope? There are plenty of forums out there for would-be knob "philosophers" to endlessly argue their way out of paper bags that you might enjoy a lot more.

Another friendly suggestion.

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#382360 - 05/23/09 06:57 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: TheDegenerate]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
I think you just wont accept the imperfection in LaVey's 10th rule.

I have pointed out a crack in the philosophy and instead of trying to set it out nice and clear you have worked around it by simply implying it is a stupid question.

What intrigues me the most is that I have accused and challenged the philosophy (that i myself follow) and now you refuse to argue it back, rather you incessantly imply the futility of the question.
If you cannot properly answer my argument then you cannot properly defend this religion. Or perhaps its a little disconcerting to find I have pointed a elaborate hole in the philosophy we follow.

If you find this whole thing pointless then why do you still post in this thread? Perhaps you do have some need to put down this argument ive made but dont have the ability to put it down legitimately....
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382361 - 05/23/09 07:02 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1262
Loc: Behind You
There is no hole in the philosophy. The only hole is your lack of understanding.

Goodbye skull rip
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#382362 - 05/23/09 07:02 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3580
Loc: Calgary
Originally Posted By: Atralux Lucis
Or perhaps its a little disconcerting to find I have pointed a elaborate hole in the philosophy we follow.


No, I find it insane and pretentious that you feel you have somehow uncovered some great secret behind Satanism, which many members here have practiced for their ENTIRE LIVES, a philosophy which is been around for over FORTY YEARS, while at the same time, you haven't even put enough time or effort in yourself to read (understand) all of the fucking source material.

Such a clear cut rule does not need defense. You are making yourself out to be an idiot, and your own posts prove what a miserable laughing stock you are.

That being said, I think this conversation is over. smile

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#382364 - 05/23/09 07:11 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: TheDegenerate]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
There is no great secret. I understand perfectly what I am talking about because it is only one sentence that is in question. I fail to see what you think the whole 40 year old Satanic Philosophy has to do with this issue.

Im sure LaVey would have been thought to have little common sense to create a Church of Satan. La Voisin was probably thought insane for practicing a black mass in a christian era. All new thought goes into what people think is crazy and that is exactly how we evolve.

If this is such an easy issue for you to resolve why havent you done so already. If you cant then there is indeed, a hole in this philosophy but not intentional but an accidental one in the wording of one sentence. I personally would still have a problem with that, but i am a perfectionist.

No argument is stupid. Unless you have some sort of pious judgment on the legitimacy of an argument. I say again that if this argument was stupid then obviously you would have settled it and persuaded me already with a proper argument so we wouldnt have to suffered its stupidity any longer. You havent therefore it isnt stupid and Im not an idiot.

I truly find your arguing ability is quite poor, i would like to see this issue settled and didnt particularly want some big long debate on its merit as an issue.
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382365 - 05/23/09 07:18 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6412
Quote:
The Satanic Bible professes that animals be killed only under the circumstances of self defense or for food.


The purpose of this sentence is to distance Satanists from those flipparoos (Thank you, Ygraine) who think Satan is real and who would be inclined to make animal sacrifices to said imaginary fiend. It's not a prohibition on eating meat.

You obviously don't get it.
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#382366 - 05/23/09 07:18 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Spelled Moon
Unregistered


You mentioned, that this way of getting meat is not natural... Because people don't kill animals, each with own hands. I'd say, that nothing on Earth is unnatural...
The tools made by people are natural - made of natural materials - including ones designed to handle meat... Any invention is natural, because it is made by people (natural beings), while using natural resources.

Also the processes invented by natural people; the processes, which really make things easier (like killing animals for food on specialized places) are completely natural.

People in meat industry are working with meat for food. If there wasn't demand, there wouldn't be a company doing it. Nobody wants to be in deficit, so it seems that the meat sells => someone eats it. It's natural business.

I think, that the fact, that you pay for the meat from killed animal, means that they are killed for the purpose of eating, so imo there is no contradiction with the rule.

Natural doesn't necessarily mean primitive.

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#382369 - 05/23/09 07:21 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: LKRice]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
I never said it was a prohibition on eating meat. You obviously dont get my position.

We already reached a conclusion about the intention of the rule but thats not the issue anymore. Please read through the other posts and then make an argument. (not meaning to be rude, though that sounded a bit rude)
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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#382372 - 05/23/09 07:24 AM Re: More controversy- Vegetarianism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Atralux Lucis Offline


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 35
Loc: Australia
Thank you again Spelled Moon. You have settled that argument.

Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.


Now what about the fact it says for your food. Now see the killers arent eating them. They are killing them to sell to others for profit. Now people buy this (including satanists) and therefore are supporting the idea of killing animals for profit which is supporting the disobeying of the tenth rule.

This is THE last argument I have. If you can put that down I have no further issue.
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Lascivian Atralux Lucis

It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.- Anton Szandor LaVey

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