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#382529 - 05/24/09 04:33 PM People watching and their Mistakes
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I enjoy watching others and the situations they place themselves in. Most of the time I just walk away knowing that there are hunters out there who are waiting to take advantage of those very situations. Those whom I care for I will sometimes (often) voice my concerns attempting to shield them from their mistake. Knowing that every act is a selfish one, but the repercussions of that act may be more than what they bargain for.

I also think that life lessons should be learned, and providing the situation will allow the natural outcome. Take just for example, a woman or a man is drunk in a bar and is acting out in a way that could lead to this person being sexually assaulted by some of the other patrons. Should this person be allowed to experience the outcome of their own stupidity? What if in fact this person desires this outcome, and because of ones intervention fumbles that individuals want?

At what point is it necessary to shield others from their own stupidity? A topic I find interesting, and would like to read some of your thoughts.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#382531 - 05/24/09 05:06 PM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 162
Loc: Portland, Oregon
If it is someone that I care about, I never stop trying to help them. However, I do think there is a point in where you kind of have to let people "go". That is in letting them make their own decisions. A while back I was having a really intense conversation with a friend of mine in which I said that one of the reasons I cannot have children is because of the fear of not being able to stop being overprotective. Anybody else share this?

As for people that I am not close to, their stupid mistakes is entertaining. I know I've done my fair share, but it was necessary for me (as it is to others) to "experience the outcome of [my] stupidity." Although Dr. LaVey wished it would be more frequent, stupidity can indeed be painful. Negative reinforcement can be a tool, though!

Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
Take just for example, a woman or a man is drunk in a bar and is acting out in a way that could lead to this person being sexually assaulted by some of the other patrons.

If the woman is not an idiot, she must be harboring some masochistic desire. If this person was a friend of mine, I wouldn't hesitate to take action and get her out of there.
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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#382533 - 05/24/09 05:19 PM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
Azathoth Offline


Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
I also think that life lessons should be learned, and providing the situation will allow the natural outcome. Take just for example, a woman or a man is drunk in a bar and is acting out in a way that could lead to this person being sexually assaulted by some of the other patrons. Should this person be allowed to experience the outcome of their own stupidity?


I understand your sentiment but if you knowingly allow such things to happen, you are also letting your local scumbags get practice that may embolden them to attack others who are far more innocent. Eventually, criminals will also get the word that the area is "fair game." I'm not saying you need to fight tooth and claw for such an idiot, but I wouldn't be totally passive either.

My opinion on the subject would be similar in other areas. Allowing acts of stupidity that are probably harmless to the whole? (ie unwise purchases, bad diet etc.) Fine. Situations that may encourage violent criminals or put others at danger are an entirely different matter.
_________________________
"I don't know how masochism became synonymous with masculinity."- Rev. Bill M.

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#382541 - 05/24/09 07:34 PM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
TraceLines Offline


Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 58
Loc: Upstate South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
Take just for example, a woman or a man is drunk in a bar and is acting out in a way that could lead to this person being sexually assaulted by some of the other patrons. Should this person be allowed to experience the outcome of their own stupidity?


Strictly speaking from a Satanic viewpoint, "Responsibility to the responsible." In your example, the situation is a result of not only a lack of responsibility, but also a question of compulsion versus indulgence.

Now, that said, one has to consider the history of the person, I'd think. If one has no personal dealings or relationship with the aforementioned drunk, I'd lean towards letting them find their own fate. If it is someone that is known, then one has to consider the cost/benefit of helping them. It could be a matter of earning favor, correcting behavior in someone that should know better, or any combination of things. But, don't forget... don't fool yourself into thinking its selfless. At the very least, the one helped should remember that they were helped and be willing to return the favor.

To sum it up: Strangers don't get help. Friends / business partners / lovers do.

Thoughts?
_________________________
Too much zeal clouds judgment.

Lack of zeal results in doing nothing worth judging.

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#382545 - 05/24/09 08:00 PM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7141
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Take just for example, a woman or a man is drunk in a bar and is acting out in a way that could lead to this person being sexually assaulted by some of the other patrons. Should this person be allowed to experience the outcome of their own stupidity?

If you know that a felony sexual assault has occurred, is occurring or is about to occur, and you neglect to report it to proper authorities or see to it that it is reported, you are committing a misdemeanor called misprision of felony.
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reprobate

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#382549 - 05/24/09 11:31 PM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: reprobate]
Lilibeta Offline


Registered: 12/06/08
Posts: 157
Loc: Alberta, Canada
To echo what most have said, if the person in question is someone that I care about, I'd intervene in any way necessary and then have a stern chat with them (what the Hell were you thinking!?) later when the time was right.

If the person was someone that I didn't give a toss about, then they are on their own.

I don't think it's so much about learning from mistakes as it is taking responsibility for your actions and perhaps using your brain a little.

Mind you, I'm not saying that a person who imbibes too much in a bar deserves to be raped. No, not saying that at all, but their lack of foresight has put them at risk and it's not my responsibility to police the populous.

Now, regarding the specific case at hand, if I knew that an assault, sexual or otherwise was imminent, then I might approach the person's friends and alert them to the situation with a 'hey, you might want to take your friend home now'.
_________________________

For my sins I will ask no forgiveness. For my sins they are not to forgive.

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#382550 - 05/25/09 12:48 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lilibeta]
IncitingRiots Offline


Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Oregon
If a friend or loved one is acting in a manner that could have a negative outcome I would say something. However, sometimes you just have to let people make their mistakes and learn the hard way. Can't let them become reliant on you always saving their ass.

I have a friend, he is a good guy but he has a mouth on him when he drinks. A few times we have been at the bar and his big mouth has gotten him into trouble with some of the other people there. Not wanting to see him get his ass beat or go to jail; I stepped in a few times to cool the situation down.

Then one night I just got tired of having to lookout for him, he got lippy with the wrong hombre and was administered a good old fashioned beat down in the parking lot. I stepped outside to insure that this fight was "fair" (1-on-1 only, still a friend after all) aside from that I did nothing to intervene.

When it was all over he asked why I didn't step in and stop that from happening. I could only shake my head. I doubt he would have been able to understand in his inebriated state. Haven't gone out drinking with him since.
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Better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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#382551 - 05/25/09 01:13 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: IncitingRiots]
Spelled Moon
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: IncitingRiots
I have a friend, he is a good guy but he has a mouth on him when he drinks. A few times we have been at the bar and his big mouth has gotten him into trouble with some of the other people there.


Time ago, I was living similar situation with my friend. We were at pub at a very late night, and some punk guy walked inside. My drunk friend started to laugh on him in a way like "Look at his hair, he looks like rooster" or "Did lightening hit him?", then after some time, it was too much for the punk being, so he came and tilted above me and called him to stand up and go outside to the front of the pub.
It was very unamiable for me also, as furious and stinky guy was standing above me... So I pulled the bottom of his t-shirt, he looked at me and with calm voice and angelface grin I told him, that my friend doesn't know what he says, he's very drunk and it's really stupid that he does that, and people sitting around table didn't have fun of it at all; and that I know, that he doesn't want to be the same silly as my friend was... It worked - the drunk guy went away and felt how clever he is, that he didn't attack my friend... and my friend felt ashamed, because I told what I thought of his behaviour. I don't remember he did it again, at least when I was near.
The only bad thing, which came out of my action is, that the guy was smiling at me until we left the bar. smile

But if this was happening to someone who I don't know, I'd probably call police and wouldn't care of it anymore, as I don't feel like someone able to "fight" physically or solve anything with angry men in any case. I am afraid of agressive men, so I avoid any interaction with them, if I can.

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#382556 - 05/25/09 04:45 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
Terrenial Offline


Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 47
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct


At what point is it necessary to shield others from their own stupidity? A topic I find interesting, and would like to read some of your thoughts.


Its never necessary.. its just a choice on your part. What will you gain from it? Maybe if you save someone from a mistake, you will make a very good friend who appreciates you a lot and helps you out in the future. Helping people can be very beneficial to you.
However, that's definitely not always the case. Most of the time your better off just letting people make mistakes and letting them learn on their own, even if you love them. Why? Because no one wants to hear some prick thinking they can tell them how to solve all their problems.
So in other words, go out of your way to help people if you think you'll get something in return such as appreciation and respect, but if you help someone and they don't want your advice.. just stop giving it to them and let them learn on their own. If they want your help, they can ask you for it.

Also realize, that while you might think you see their problem clearly, there could easily be much more than your observational perspective can notice.

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#382557 - 05/25/09 05:05 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lilibeta]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3580
Loc: Calgary
To shed a bit of a "third side" perspective on this particular situation, what about the involvement of a third party?

Bouncers are hired to deal with such situations. A whisper in their ear about an imminent physical or sexual assault, and not only is your own ass saved from the law and the responsibility, but the problem will be taken care of shortly. Bar owners don't want to deal with stuff like that, and there is more than one way to convince them to get involved. Whether the offender in question is a friend, or a potential deviant sitting in the bar or what have you, they will likely do the talking themselves while you sit back and relax.

To respond to a different user here, if I am with someone dick-headed enough to run his mouth off in a bar, I would probably do the exact same thing. Jumping in between him and his assailant is a bad idea, and if he has a group of people with him, don't put it past them that they won't shit-kick you, as well. If it's a girl you are with mouthing off to a bunch of guys and they know you are the "boyfriend", or dominant male in said relationship, they will likely take it out on you in the end! It also helps to know exactly who is tagging along when you go to a potential danger spot, and if a friend of mine ever did that to me, I'd beat his ass myself; it wouldn't be the subject of his verbal assaults that he would have to deal with after the fact! skull


Edited by Phosis (05/25/09 05:06 AM)

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#382572 - 05/25/09 10:30 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Terrenial]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
"Its never necessary.. its just a choice on your part."

And choice is the great evaluator.

I have enjoyed reading over the posts here.

Birth Of Tragedy

The Birth Of Tragedy interview with Doktor LaVey - Issue No. 4, November '86 - January '87 Special Anniversary Edition -The God Issue, was the inspiration for this thread.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#382574 - 05/25/09 11:01 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
Basher Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Mars
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
At what point is it necessary to shield others from their own stupidity?


Never.
_________________________
Felated Satan!

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#382578 - 05/25/09 11:45 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: TheDegenerate]
Spelled Moon
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Phosis
To shed a bit of a "third side" perspective on this particular situation, what about the involvement of a third party?

Bouncers are hired to deal with such situations.


In Slovakia, there is a fashion in pubs - not to hire these men. crazy

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#382579 - 05/25/09 11:48 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Lust]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Ah one my personal favorite interviews with Anton LaVey.

I read it every year on his B-Day.
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#382655 - 05/26/09 07:44 AM Re: People watching and their Mistakes [Re: Unknown]
TranquilChaos Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 44
Loc: USA IA
If criminal activity is eminent I will step in, preferably via law enforcement or a bouncer if available, otherwise responsibility to the responsible. If my friends or loved one, I would give them what I perceive as the wise decision then let them take an eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth. What I mean by that is if only a few words were passed I am not going to allow more than a few punches unless my friend pursues it further.

I see relative teaching techniques with my own children. I refuse to give them the answer but will offer (if asked) to guide them to it. There is no substitution for personal experience so I try to avoid spoiling that for anyone.

I also have to agree that if not beating the $#!t out of them myself later(gross misjudgment on thier side) I would definitly inform them that if they wish to pursue any relationship with me that they should reevaluate how their actions effects those around them. If they can't take responsibility for their actions then don't expect me to take thier responsibilitys either.

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