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#383371 - 06/02/09 05:26 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: reprobate]
TraceLines Offline


Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 58
Loc: Upstate South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: reprobate
The rule of double effect comes into play. When you shove a person into the path of the trolley, you're killing as a means to an end. When you switch tracks, such that someone dies as a result, that's a collateral effect and not a means to the end.


That makes sense.

I haven't read the actual study just yet (only the associated article that I did post), at least not to a point where I'm confident enough in my understanding of it.

Would this suggest those with the brain damage (or, the people that would push because of a rational of one way or the other) are immoral?

Are there any Satanic tenants that would answer this question?

The first one that comes to mind is the killing of animals only for food and self defense. Seeing as pushing the man would be moreso murder than switching the tracks, at least according to you (not that I disagree), would killing that man be a violation of that Satanic tenant?
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#383372 - 06/02/09 05:27 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: John Prophet]
TraceLines Offline


Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 58
Loc: Upstate South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
On the Importance of Being Evil ( which is probably my single most favorite essay, or at least the one Ive found to be the most powerful, by the Doctor).


You're right. My mistake.
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#383373 - 06/02/09 05:39 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: TraceLines


The first one that comes to mind is the killing of animals only for food and self defense. Seeing as pushing the man would be moreso murder than switching the tracks, at least according to you (not that I disagree), would killing that man be a violation of that Satanic tenant?


Technically, that rule of the earth is Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food. crossbones
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#383374 - 06/02/09 05:42 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: John Prophet]
TraceLines Offline


Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 58
Loc: Upstate South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Technically, that rule of the earth is Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food. crossbones


Second time you've caught me. Them details are a bitch, huh? wink
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Too much zeal clouds judgment.

Lack of zeal results in doing nothing worth judging.

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#383375 - 06/02/09 05:46 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
John Prophet Offline

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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Yeah, but that last one was kind of a joke.


Edited by John Prophet (06/02/09 06:31 PM)
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#383383 - 06/02/09 08:18 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
If I remember correctly, the main thrust of that essay was to demonstrate that, in a historical context, "evil" has often been a catalyst for change rather than to justify acts of "necessary" evil.
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#383392 - 06/02/09 11:42 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Would this suggest those with the brain damage (or, the people that would push because of a rational of one way or the other) are immoral?

The human being is immoral as a rule. Even if people with this particular kind of brain damage tend to show a bias to one particular kind of error, this is "abnormal" only in contrast with the "normal" person who shows biases to other kinds of error. To say anything else would just be self-flattery.

The relevant tenet here seems to me to be the Seventh Satanic Statement.
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#383425 - 06/03/09 07:36 AM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: reprobate]
TraceLines Offline


Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 58
Loc: Upstate South Carolina, USA
Ok, so just to reiterate for myself:

There is no Satanic solution to the problem above unless the one answering has something to gain from one of the outcomes. But since there is no defined gain/loss in the scenario, the solution must lie on other philosophies to be answered beyond just an initial reaction.

Thank you all that had something to offer and critiques to the application of Satanic thought. smile
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Too much zeal clouds judgment.

Lack of zeal results in doing nothing worth judging.

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#383479 - 06/03/09 04:33 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
S.Varkant Offline


Registered: 01/14/09
Posts: 29
Loc: England
I'd let the six people die, then kick the other prick off the cliff and say 'why didn't you do something you fucking stupid asshole'.

I can't relate to this sort of scenario. I don't even know six people.

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#383481 - 06/03/09 05:08 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: TraceLines
Ok, so just to reiterate for myself:

There is no Satanic solution to the problem above unless the one answering has something to gain from one of the outcomes. But since there is no defined gain/loss in the scenario, the solution must lie on other philosophies to be answered beyond just an initial reaction.

Thank you all that had something to offer and critiques to the application of Satanic thought. smile


Id say that your reiteration is correct.
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#383487 - 06/03/09 05:24 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I'm not sure that even if there were gain/loss involved, that would be enough to say there was a "Satanic solution". Satanism doesn't justify doing things that are morally wrong.
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#383499 - 06/03/09 06:49 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: reprobate]
Jordi Weller Offline


Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 1
Loc: Bracknell, England
What's right in ones eyes is wrong in anothers so on a global basis this is a complex subject.

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#383503 - 06/03/09 07:08 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: Jordi Weller]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
What's right in ones eyes is wrong in anothers so on a global basis this is a complex subject.

Any subject worth any trouble is going to be complex. On the other hand, a few sound principles go a long way to cutting through bullshit.
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#383507 - 06/03/09 07:31 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: TraceLines]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Does everything have to involve personal gain? How about doing the right thing just cause it's the right thing?

I love how threads like these bring out people who are ready and eager to show how they are just heartless douche-bags.
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#383510 - 06/03/09 07:42 PM Re: "Right can be wrong." [Re: John Prophet]
Basher Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Mars
Morals are subject to personal preference, for each action is selfish, thus influencing one's desire to uphold a specific code of ethics. Since we are all human animals we are by default going to have morals that uphold such laws as the freedom of movement and protection from harm. Pardon the one or pardon the many? My opinion on the subject is moot because the decision is for the one in control of the situation.


Edited by Basher (06/03/09 07:42 PM)
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