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#386580 - 07/02/09 10:25 AM Was LeVay Theistic?
malmensa Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 5
Just reading a bit about Anton & CoS, there are few things that seem inconsistant. There is recurrant theme that Satan is a mere metaphorical construct, this makes perfect sense to me, but how does it reconcile with 7th Satanic rule?

"Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained."

Doesn't this imply a deity, or at least some sort of metaphysical force akin to the Buddhist concept of Karma? Are the Satanic Rules guidelies, or can you be a "Smorgasboard Satanist" picking & choosing the bits you like?

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#386583 - 07/02/09 10:41 AM Re: Was LeVay Theistic? [Re: WolfMoon]
malmensa Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 5
The laws of nature don't get offended & reverse out benificial effects if you express disbelief. This seems more in the nature of a supernatural action. Put a rock on a pile of paper, it will not be any less of an effective paperwieght if I deny the existance of gravity.


Edited by malmensa (07/02/09 10:42 AM)

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#386585 - 07/02/09 10:46 AM Re: Was LeVay Theistic? [Re: WolfMoon]
malmensa Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 5
Or put another way, say I go out and unexpectedly get laid, talking seriously fantastic,and some element of luck. If I say afterwards, "that was nothing to do with magic", will the 7th rule be invoked and have me retroactivly "unlaid"?

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#386586 - 07/02/09 10:48 AM Re: Was LeVay Theistic? [Re: malmensa]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Dr. LaVey often referred to the supernormal, rather than the supernatural. While the reasons for the workings of Magic may not be yet fully understood, they are not supernatural or metaphysical, they are supernormal. No implications of deity, no inconsistencies there.

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth are not only guidelines, but an intrinsic part of a Satanist. A Satanist already recognizes these in him or herself. Dr. LaVey condensed all of this into eleven neat rules.

One who picks and chooses which to follow is not a Satanist. They may be sympathizers, be attracted to the religion, but are not full fledged Satanists.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#386587 - 07/02/09 10:54 AM Re: Was LeVay Theistic? [Re: malmensa]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
you will lose all you have obtained.
Does not imply or indicate a precise reversal.

Further studying of Dr. LaVey's works will clear this up.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#386588 - 07/02/09 11:00 AM Re: Was LeVay Theistic? [Re: malmensa]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: malmensa


"Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained."
Doesn't this imply a deity, or at least some sort of metaphysical force akin to the Buddhist concept of Karma?


Each time you employ magic successfully it has a compounding effect.

You could call it personal verification. And with every success you obtain comes greater confidence in your ability to affect change in the world around you in accordance with your desires.

If you do not acknowledge the benefit of magic in your life, you undermine yourself.

Not an external deity.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#386593 - 07/02/09 11:18 AM Re: Was LeVay Theistic? [Re: malmensa]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Consider Peter Gilmore's definition of greater magic as "self-transformational psychodrama".

The first term indicates that YOU are both the cause and the effect of ritual. Powerful psychological factors are at work in magic, factors that are not well understood by science like hypnosis and suggestion.

No reference to a deity is implied.

The second term indicates that suspension of disbelief is essential, and that, to take advantage of the above named forces, you have to be able to create a fantasy zone where your normal beliefs and assumptions don't apply.

This should address your question re the 7th Rule. If you deny the power of magic, you do so in contempt of the fantasy zone of the ritual space; you corrupt your own ability to suspend disbelief, and will thus be unable to engage in the kind of hypnotic self-suggestion that is the sine qua non of magic.

(ETA: This thread had been posted to the General Satanism Discussions forum when I answered. Didn't mean to step on the clergy's toes. HS!)


Edited by reprobate (07/02/09 12:27 PM)
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reprobate

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#386613 - 07/02/09 03:36 PM Magic is an optional tool. [Re: malmensa]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12410
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
There is recurrant theme that Satan is a mere metaphorical construct, this makes perfect sense to me, but how does it reconcile with 7th Satanic rule?


Greater Magic is a technology.

Compare it to using electricity.

Use it with respect for what works and you might get desirable results.

Abuse it with a lack of respect for what works and you may get nothing ...or worse.

Just as in driving a car you need to respect the requirements of turning an ignition key, taking off the parking brake, and putting the car in gear, with Greater Magic there are mental and emotional actions that are required.

The first of these is to get past identifying with the aspect of the Christian God known as omniscience - already knowing everything.

Even our best "reality experts", modern physicists, are quite clear that we do not know everything.

It is possible that we never will.

Doubting that Greater Magic is impossible can be made easier by remembering that.

The suspension of disbelief in magic is a requirement in Greater Magic. So if you cannot do that then just skip Greater Magic.

Greater Magic is only an option for the Satanist who has the talent for using it. It is not necessary.

It is another tool to be used if you have the knack for doing so.

If you can't use it right, put the tool down and leave it alone.

That just makes sense whether the tool is electrical or magical.

Read the warning label.

Wear safety goggles.

Or don't use it.

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#386674 - 07/03/09 04:44 AM Re: Magic is an optional tool. [Re: Nemo]
malmensa Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 5
Thanks, pretty much makes sense.

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