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#39216 - 05/08/04 02:48 PM The Results of a Ritual
BuddingSatanist Offline


Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 61
This may be a somewhat inappropriate topic for my first post, but it is a topic that has caught my interest and, since it does not appear to be clearly explained neither in The Satanic Bible nor anywhere on the CoS or related websites, I thought I would ask here for a clear explanation.

My question is this:
Different religions believe their "magic" to bring results due to different reasons.
For example, Christians will say that praying (one might say that this is their form of magic) is simply asking god for assistance. God, being the omnipotent being that he is, may then choose to use his power to grant their wish.
Idol worshippers may add that a sacrifice of some kind is required to convince their gods to grant their wish. Sort of like bribing a god.

Satanists, obviously, do not rely on the existence of a powerful deity to grant their desires. Nevertheless, they do practise their own form of magic, which is supposed to yield results.
What I would like to know is - what is the part of the ritual that actually yields the results?
From what I have read so far, none of the symbolic ingredients of the ritual, such as black robes and the symbol of Baphomet, are required and can be substitued and indeed even omitted at will. This brings me to reason that the only ingredient that brings success to the magic-working is the power of your own mind, and all other ingredients are merely tools to evoke greater emotional response in order to help you more fully harness that power
Am I on the correct line of thought?

To paraphrase:
What is the single ingredient, if it is at all possible to isolate only a single one, without which a working of greater-magic has no chance of success?

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#39217 - 05/08/04 02:57 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
The only thing that absolutely must be present in ritual is desire. Equipment is negotiable, the chamber itself is even potentially dispensable.

Desire is the substance of magic. Also see Dr. LaVey's "warning" on magic: Make sure you truly desire the results you are asking for!
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#39218 - 05/08/04 03:17 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
BuddingSatanist Offline


Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 61
Thanks for the quick reply LeviathanXIII.

But I'm a bit confused: if the only needed ingredient is desire, then why the great need to induce an emotional response?
e.g.: if I am performing a lust ritual, seeing the sigil of Baphomet before me is likely to evoke an emotional response, but will in no way change how much I desire the subject of the ritual.

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#39219 - 05/08/04 03:50 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Citizen_Squish Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/27/02
Posts: 1422
Loc: California
Quote:

Thanks for the quick reply LeviathanXIII.

But I'm a bit confused: if the only needed ingredient is desire, then why the great need to induce an emotional response?




LeviathanXIII did not say desire is the only needed ingredient in Ritual, he said it is the most important ingredient. Without desire, your ritual is pointless from the get-go, as there is no emotional release to be ritualized in the first place.

For Satanic Ritual, you also need timing, imagery, direction, and balance. Read The Satanic Bible, pp. 121-128.
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If people had wings, they would die on their backs, buzzing around in little circles.
-Uncle Fester, "Silent Death"

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#39220 - 05/08/04 03:57 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Emotional response and desire run hand-in-hand.

True, looking upon a Baphomet may evoke a strong emotional response useful during ritual. But what if the mage is capable of merely imagining a Baphomet and gaining the same response? Then the physical plaque with the sigil is transitory, and therefore not entirely necessary.

All things in ritual save desire can be manufactured as need be. Tears, orgasm, rage, etc, all can be induced when you need them, and emotional response can be aided and created, as you say, using tools that themselves are not an integral part of the desired result.

My point is that magic is both theoretically and practically reducable to minimal elements when need be. Desire itself is the only thing that cannot ever be removed from the equation.

As for emotional response, if you don't have enough desire to garner a good response at its thought, your ritual isn't likely to be met with much success in the first place.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#39221 - 05/09/04 02:58 AM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
BuddingSatanist Offline


Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 61
Understood.
Your help is greatly appreciated LeviathanXIII and Citizen_Squish. Thank you for a prompt and helpful explanation.

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#39222 - 05/09/04 10:26 AM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Mike_Hargis Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/29/04
Posts: 825
Loc: Bensalem, PA (Philly 'burbs)
Along with desire, you also need the energy released during states of hightened emotions (anger, orgasm, etc.). The Satanic Bible specifically tells us this point. It's this energy - with your desire - that actually gives the ritual its power to succeed. No ritual will succeed without the release of this energy. Remember, the point of the emotional response is to replace the energy released by a dying animal sacrifice used in other religions. Hope this helps!
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#39223 - 05/09/04 12:54 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: Mike_Hargis]
BuddingSatanist Offline


Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 61
Thanks Mike_Hargis. Very helpful indeed.

So if I understand correctly, the emotions expressed during a ritual provide the energy to accomplish a certain task, while the desire provides a focal point for that energy - the task you wish to accomplish.
I'm seeing a sort-of pseudo-scientific logic in this system, though perhaps I am reading too much into it. I won't bother you with my theory though.

Again, thanks to everyone who has replied and helped me with this question.

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#39224 - 05/09/04 08:37 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Malin_Wolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 1712
Loc: A sleepy little hollow in Flor...
LeviathanXIII has it on the money when he wrote "desire". Casting your desires to the wind is not enough, there must be positive effort behind it to push your working forward. Just wishing will not make it happen.

"You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see what one get's filled first."
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#39225 - 05/10/04 10:55 AM I think he's got it! [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Mike_Hargis Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/29/04
Posts: 825
Loc: Bensalem, PA (Philly 'burbs)
Looks like you understand the basics of the ritual. As for the "pseudo-scientific" part, everything is magic until someone comes up with a plausible theory...then, it becomes science. Good luck in the performing of any rituals you desire. Keep us posted...
_________________________
Love completely those who deserve your love, & hate just as completely those who deserve your hatred! Hail Satan! Mike Hargis

www.myspace.com/satanist_in_pa
www.massagespace.net/Details/CMT-in-NE-Philly
www.brightfuse.com/mikehargis
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#39226 - 05/10/04 01:02 PM Re: I think he's got it! [Re: Mike_Hargis]
BuddingSatanist Offline


Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 61
Thanks Mike_Hargis. I don't intend on performing any rituals just yet - circumstances are against it. Fortunately, I have no need for any rituals for the time being.

The reason I said pseudo-scientific is that I have a theory, but it's not what you would call a plausible one .
Again, thanks for all the help, everything is much clearer now.

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#39227 - 05/10/04 05:48 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Prince_Satanicus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 1556
Loc: KNOXVILLE, Tennessee, (THE BLA...
Exactly sir, DESIRE, INTENSE DESIRE brings the results the rest is only to focus that desire.
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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
"The dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity"

HAIL SATAN
HAIL ANTON LAVEY
HAIL ME

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#39228 - 05/11/04 05:50 AM That old Philosopher's Stone rag [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

What is the single ingredient, if it is at all possible to isolate only a single one, without which a working of greater-magic has no chance of success?




I don't believe it was included.

A reason to feel strongly or know with certainty that the magic will work is the single necessary ingredient.

All five of the principles of magic fall under this category.

Ignoring the five principles and finding your own alternative ingredients which are equally convincing resolves this riddle while producing results. In a frustrated and desperate state of mind, the self-deciet of going against one's own desires can produce the very thing which is supposedly unwanted. Just beyond why or why not anyone would do this, it can be seen that there is an entirely "other" law of nature at work.

The five principles are easy to relate to and partially intuitive, which is the reason for their appeal.

If desire or any of the other four principles can be singled out as the only necessary ingredient, this is because it is the most convincing ingredient. It could also be observed that natural law makes it so by being the only completely subjective principle of the five. However, there is no single ingredient that can cause magical results all on its own, except the one in my opening statement. Test this out if you wish.

The etheral motions of magic operate at their greatest potential in the subconscious, apart from all five principles which are conscious actions. The bridge between the subconcious and concious is Direction.

This is not dogma! Dogma is an axiom. The question is what is most likely to verify the axiom. That would be truth.

Have fun.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#39229 - 05/15/04 03:21 AM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: BuddingSatanist]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
I would point one such as yourself in the direction of some Far Eastern philosophies for a few ideas on what that "active" part of magic is. The Chinese concept of Dao or Tao comes to mind, although it's not quite complete either.

Martial arts in the Orient was veiwed as the Western Hermetic (Ceremonial magic) arts are here. And it is true that those who practice such arts develop a strength of character that could be best decribed as supernormal.

Experiment. That is my best advice. Go through the Satanic Rituals, the Satanic Bible, etc, and TRY stuff. Actually do it, get wrapped up in it emotionally. You WILL see results if you simply follow the directions in the Satanic Bible.

Just because you have a pistol and ammunition, doesn't mean you have to know how to build the weapon from raw components in order to use it effectively.

The same could be said of magic.
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"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

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#39230 - 05/17/04 10:21 PM Re: The Results of a Ritual [Re: Felstorm]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

The Chinese concept of Dao or Tao comes to mind, although it's not quite complete either.





You wouldn't add that it is not quite complete without feeling that you know what the complete answer is.

What prevents you from spilling the beans, then?

I wonder if by beating around the bush, you intend to avoid dogmatism. Or, on the other hand, perhaps you simply prefer that "Satan" is not the same for each of us? Certainly that is understandable.

My Satan is the entire universe. Therefore, it applies to everyone. That's why I have a tendency to preach. No, no, no. I'm KIDDING, mostly.

But despite these arguments, what is...IS!

Does "what is" have a name? If so, why have you resisted naming it? Why should anyone read books and do research, treading the dirty roads of the earth and seeking out scholars who might know better?

Where is the thing you call your "self"?

Here I was thinking that it would obviously be your God. Gods have always had names.

Quote:

Just because you have a pistol and ammunition, doesn't mean you have to know how to build the weapon from raw components in order to use it effectively.

The same could be said of magic.






I was being somewhat rhetorical, obviously. But what I mean is: so it didn't get named in the chapter we expected it to be named in. Does this mean that it wasn't named at all? I think we've already explored the basics enough times. Perhaps we should think again. Satanism is definitely a complete doctrine, if you know where to look.

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