Good evening everyone.

Recently I have been doing research on Forensic investigation since that is what I will be going to school for. I have a theory in development which involves utilizing the LaVey Synthesizer Clock as a tool for helping create criminal profiles. I am not aware if this has ever been done before and if it has it most likely would be kept private. So I am curious to know what your thoughts are on this.

An example: 12 o' clock is aggressive and dominating so their murders could be incredibly brutal and gruesome.

A 3 o' clock is more so of an intellect so their crimes would be much more thought out as opposed to acting upon impusle.

Hmm, I never thought of applying it to criminal profiling, but it may just work. Though personally, I would suspect a 12 o'clock criminal as the kind who'd hire a 6 o'clock to carry out the crime.

Dunno about that.

I wouldn't classify Charles Manson as a 12 o Clock.

Personally, I'd say a person on the more intellectual side of the clock wold hire a 12.

That's possible considering the 6 o' clock is more of the submissive type. I suppose when you consider the physical tributes that make up the 12 o' clock (wide shoulders, tall, etc.) you get a very strong physical figure in your head. So over powering a victim would be much easier and contain a brutal force not seen as if say a 6 o' clock did it.

I'd say a 6 o' clock would be someone who'd most likely kill someone in their sleep. There may be less blood at the crime scene since they wouldn't have the physique to use brute force.

Again just tossing a few ideas around. I will have to make time to study past criminal cases and compare them to the LaVey Synthesizer Clock.

I personally think this makes much more sense. It'd be interesting to review past cases and see where criminals/killers fall under.

Not to mention some have anti-social and personality disorders which could make it tricky.

That makes a lot of sense to me. From what I've seen and heard of Mr. Charlie I'd place him around 4:30. While I highly doubt the LaVey Synthesizer Clock will ever be used as an integral part in a police investigation, I have no doubt Satanic cops have used it privately to make important deductions.

The fact that one would be dealing with mental cases would certainly add another dimension to using the clock.

But I suppose the question would be: are there specific disorders relatable to clock positions?

Or, would the mental issues nullify any pre-disopositions? For instance, how could you apply the clock to someone who is simply not self-aware?

All very good questions Reverend. Questions I wish I had the answers for. I need to do more research but your questions are now my questions as well.

Yes, you have, in fact, posed a very interesting question. But we must remember there is not only the criminaly insane - that may well prove to be a separate issue.

There is also the calculated and aware crimnal. I think the clock would be a very applicable tool under these conditions.

One thing I’d like to point out is that, although 3 o' clocks might be more “head” oriented in their approach (as opposed to people on the left side of the clock who are “heart” oriented); that doesn't necessarily mean that they are actually more intelligent than people on one left side of the clock.

The LaVey Synthesizer Clock can tell you about people’s attitudes and general approach to things, but not necessarily how intelligent the individual is. If you’re talking about criminal “masterminds” we must remember that it is entirely possible for a 6 o' clock person to be just as, if not more intelligent than a 3 o' clock person.

But in general you’re probably right, and I’d also like to add that individuals on the left side of the clock may be more pre disposed to crimes of passion than people on the right.

You may be interested in something called anthropological criminology (related to physiognomy), a "field of offender profiling, based on perceived links between the nature of a crime and the personality or physical appearance of the offender" (Wiki's description). This seems very similar to the Synthesizer clock in the way it categorizes.

Aside from Cesare Lombroso (the main guy associated with the study of the connection between appearances and crime) I'd also look up Alphonse Bertillon, the fella credited with creating the mugshot ID system.

I don't agree with Lombroso's characterization of "inferior" when it comes to certain physical features but I do think he was on to something. Not a very politically correct field but weirdly accurate.

Very interesting topic!

I think the air types would tend to use sneakier means--like poison--or more creative ones (or at least, they would have a more creative or intellectual rationale), or would actually be the types to hire out the 12:00.

Earth types? They'd tend to be practical or down-to-earth with regards to both their means and their rationales.

Water types? Crimes of passion, arising from feelings of hurt, jealousy, or betrayal.

Fire types? Violent crimes, often arising from feelings of anger, hatred, or embarrassment.

I'm just spontaneously tossing ideas out, so take it all with a grain of salt for the moment .

I agree that it might be quite worthwhile to explore whether certain clock positions might be associated with certain, say, mental illnesses.

What may also complicate matters is that with people who are timid in normal life (the ones you would place on the 6 o'clock) you shouldn't expect them to be incapable of brutal murder.
One thing I find interesting is the scale of evil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_of_evil
Those who are deemed least 'evil' are the ones who kill in self-defense and do not have psychopathic tendencies, and the most extreme, most 'evil' are ones who rejoice in torture.
Would 12 o'clocks be the ones more likely to engage in torture as opposed to 6 o'clocks? I don't really know. As the saying goes "It's the quiet ones you need to watch out for" I am not certain how well you can predict the kinds of murders one would commit from how they act in normal life.
From what I remember from the show "Most Evil" I think that the killers who were profiled and labelled a 22, most evil, it didn't appear to me that they would be 12 oclocks.
I do think that this is an interesting field of investigation.

I've considered this, particularly when dealing with folks with personality disorders. According to the DSM-IV-TR, disorders such as antisocial, histrionic, and narcissistic personality disorders involve some rather exaggerated 12 o-clockish behaviors.

Think Richard Kuklinski.

It would be interesting if there were a correlation between Clock Types and certain disorders, but really, we're already dealing with some pretty ambiguous subject matter talking about the nature of mental disorders alone, with all the overlap of symptoms and such.

Another thing worth considering is the possibility that certain individual’s criminal activities could very well be an expression of their demonic.

I was just considering that! Perhaps such criminalistic activites occur because their demonic elements are supressed?

Thanks for the info Shade.

Studying forensic investigation brings a full plate alone but I have a big appetite.

That's a worthy point. I think the method of the crime may reveal more about which side of the clock one may be on.

Lombroso and Bertillon are both mentioned in most of the forensic science books I've read. "History of...", "Introduction to...", a section like that. Probably not the sort of thing necessary to process a murder scene nowadays but I think it's neat to learn about the beginnings. Lays a kind of foundation.

I think you're right--especially in cases where people quote-unquote "snap," or have been repressed or suppressed for an extended period of time.

I have been reading Crime Scene by Larry Ragle and The Forensic Case Book by N.E. Genge. I like Mr. Ragle's book much more than Genge's so far but both contain decent info. What books have you read if I may ask Ms. Shade?

Oh gosh, I'm going to have to go off of memory (my personal library is spread over three states right now) so this is most likely incomplete but...

Books specifically about forensic science (so, not including the ones whose main focus is a murder case, death, dissection, anatomy, bones etc):

Dead Men Do Tell Tales by Dr. Maples
Death's Acre by Dr. Bass
Corpse: Nature, Forensics, and the Struggle to Pinpoint Time of Death by Jessica Snyder Sachs
Witnesses from the Grave: The Stories Bones Tell (about Dr. Clyde Snow, forensic anthropologist) by Christopher Joyce
No Stone Unturned: The True Story of the World's Premier Forensic Investigators by Steve Jackson
Forensic Pathology of Trauma: Common Problems for the Pathologist by Michael J. Shkrum, MD and David A. Ramsay, MB, ChB
Color Atlas of Forensic Pathology by Jay Dix


Currently in the "To Read w/in the year" pile:
Bodies We've Buried (Inside the National Forensic Academy, the World's Top CSI Training School) by Jarrett Hallcox and Amy Welch -- I've skimmed this one and it's heavy on criminalistics, procedure, etc. Kind of techincal and may be the sort of thing you'd be interested in.
Bones: A Forensic Detective's Casebook by Dr. Ubelaker & Henry Scammell

Currently on the "To obtain w/in the year and read before I die" list:
Forensics and Fiction: Clever, Intriguing and Downright Odd Questions from Crime Writers by D.P. Lyle M.D.
Forensic Art Essentials: A Manual for Law Enforcement Artists by Lois Gibson
Forensic Taphonomy: The Postmortem Fate of Human Remains by William Haglund and Marcella Harnish Sorg
Never Suck A Dead Man's Hand: Curious Adventures of a CSI by Dana Kollman
Coroner's Journal: Forensics and the Art of Stalking Death by Louis Cataldie M.D.
Dr. Joe Bell: Model for Sherlock Holmes by Ely Liebow

Brief recaps of forensic science are included in a lot of "true crime" books. Sometimes very detailed histories of the sciences too. For instance, Colin Wilson had an exceptional overview in his The History of Murder (a 600+ page tome on everything from Caligula to the Order of Assassins to the Columbine shooting -- very, very good book!).

Fun stuff.

(... and I'll leave it at that before I babble into oblivion, straying waaaaay too far off topic. )

Wow Shade! I am such a newbie to Forensics right now so my reading material only consists of a few books. So this will help a ton! So if I am adsent from the board for awhile you know why. I have been doing a lot of research online for blood spatter analysis since that is the field of Forensics I want to get into.

I'll have to look into Colin Wilson's book since he did a decent job on The Occult.