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#401413 - 11/10/09 07:58 AM Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists
Mannyowar Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 79
Loc: London, England
I spotted a summary of this case in this week's Solicitors Journal (Vol 153 No 42). Basically if the judgement stands (it seems likely to be appealed) any philosophical belief should be subject to the same legal protection against discrimination as a recognised religion.

As Satanism is not a recognised religion here as it is in the US, this would mean it would be as unlawful for an employer to discriminate against someone on the grounds of their being a Satanist as it is to discriminate against a Muslim or Jew. So no more having to keep those Baphomets tucked inside your shirts! Here is a link to the full transcript.

full transcript
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Life is not a dress rehearsal. This is the only one we ever have. To think otherwise is the saddest aspect of the human condition and adds more pain than it ever removes ~ Alan Harvey

My Undercroft profile: http://www.satannet.com/Mannyowar


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#401423 - 11/10/09 09:33 AM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Mannyowar]
DamienMocata Online
CoS Member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 217
Loc: Linenopolis
I'd noticed this in the news recently , and while it's certainly a step forward, I wonder how many more steps back the devolved administration in NI is going to take if it does stand.

Still, good news for the future, I hope. smile
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Hail Satan!
Damien Mocata
Citizen of the Infernal Empire

Not every cage is made of bars.
"The Humanoid form makes an excellent concentrated protein. " - Davros
"You are a collection of probability fields. " - Me.

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#401424 - 11/10/09 09:39 AM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Mannyowar]
Blackspring Offline


Registered: 04/30/08
Posts: 81
Loc: London
That's great, but I certainly won't be untucking my Baphomet any time soon.

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#401426 - 11/10/09 10:07 AM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Blackspring]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Defiantly a plus for those Satanists in Merry Old, but, like Blackspring said, doesn't necessarily make Satanism a-okay to the public. I mean, technically Satanism is legal in the US, but I still keep Mr. Baphomet under my shirt... just causes less potential for conflict that way. (Also, "bling" has never really been my style...)
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#401432 - 11/10/09 11:18 AM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Mannyowar]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
>> So no more having to keep those Baphomets tucked inside your shirts! <<

Just because a legal obligation applies it does not mean people will discard their pre-conceptions. It would still be wise, in most professional environments, to keep one's affiliations under wraps.

There is power in a secret.
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#401437 - 11/10/09 12:18 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Mannyowar Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 79
Loc: London, England
I should point out the remark about "untucking" the Baphomets was made in jest! Of course I can understand why many people would still want to keep their affiliation secret, even if Satanism was officially recognised like it is in the States.

Thankfully it's never been a problem for me as I've worked in dress-code free civil service offices since I left school. I'm a metal fan and theres few people outside the Church of Satan or the underground metal scene who are going to be able to tell the difference between a COS Baphomet and the cover of Venom's "Welcome To Hell" album, for example. When I started reading Dr LaVey's books in my lunch hour no one batted an eyelid.

Funnily enough I recently bought a couple of plain black button-down shirts and wore one to work yesterday. For all but a few of my co-workers it will have been the first time they'd have seen me in anything other than a band t-shirt and I had more comments and questions about that than I've had about my Baphomet in all the years I've been wearing it. I think I might buy a tie and REALLY start fucking with their preconceptions!
_________________________
Life is not a dress rehearsal. This is the only one we ever have. To think otherwise is the saddest aspect of the human condition and adds more pain than it ever removes ~ Alan Harvey

My Undercroft profile: http://www.satannet.com/Mannyowar


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#401440 - 11/10/09 12:48 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
>> So no more having to keep those Baphomets tucked inside your shirts! <<

Just because a legal obligation applies it does not mean people will discard their pre-conceptions. It would still be wise, in most professional environments, to keep one's affiliations under wraps.

There is power in a secret.


Exactly.

Just because it is illegal to discriminate due to religion, it is easy for an employer to come up with another legitimate sounding excuse to can you.
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#401478 - 11/10/09 07:41 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1019
It would not even need be an "excuse".

Employers typically ignore many of the small infractions that their employees commit: Gabbing at the water cooler instead of working, being a minute or so late, forgetting to punch the time card, etc.

By the "letter of the law" employers have much ammunition they hardly ever have cause to use against those who do "well enough".

"Whipping it out" could be reason enough for an employer--and peers--to pay attention to the "letter of the law" and state one is "NOT doing well enough" to get one fired.
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#401531 - 11/11/09 03:23 AM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: TheAbysmal]
ScottySatan Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
It seems to me you could use this without labeling yourself a Satanist. Identify the specific idea you want to use as belonging to a different coherent body of thought that overlaps with Satanism in that regard. Darwinism? You could get the benefit without the cost.

If this case really is so far reaching, It could turn into a real clusterfuck. What are they going to do when the BNP member wants to refuse to work with an asian?

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#401789 - 11/13/09 12:16 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
There is power in a secret.


Reverend, if I may – My personal experience is that there is also power in knowledge. By openly displaying my Baphomet and also making it known that I am a Satanist, (regardless of whether people truly take the time and consideration to understand what this means) I have seemed to cause many people who I prefer to not associate with to stay away from me - Good riddance. I have also gained respect from many others by taking a stand and being proud of who and what I am - even though these folks have differing beliefs. I fully understand that there are some who are unable to openly be a Satanist, but I am in a position where it seems to work for me. I should mention that I live in the USA.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Just because it is illegal to discriminate due to religion, it is easy for an employer to come up with another legitimate sounding excuse to can you.


Originally Posted By: Vitaeviternus
"Whipping it out" could be reason enough for an employer--and peers--to pay attention to the "letter of the law" and state one is "NOT doing well enough" to get one fired.


In my 20 years of professional work experience, as well as having several years experience of being a supervisor – I can attest to the fact that employers could care less about your personal and private life provided that you are an active and productive employee. If your work ethic, motivation, and skills make you an asset, you become valuable enough that the termination of your employment would be detrimental to the company.

Indeed – you may find fellow employees who meet you with extreme disdain and distaste about the philosophy that you choose to live by. My experience is that if you excel at what you do above what most others are capable of accomplishing, they will be too busy trying to keep up to make any statements of you "NOT doing well enough". By putting myself in this position, I have found that my employer could care less about things like the dress code, the time clock, or whether I’m wearing a pentacle or Baphomet.

I’ve never fired anyone based on their religious beliefs, their sexual preference, or for being an alcoholic – but I have fired people for being lazy, incompetent, and stupid.

I should note again – that this is my personal experience – and others may have very different experiences.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#401794 - 11/13/09 01:08 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Zsche]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8258
Something to think about: Magistra Barton's book is titled "The Secret Life of a Satanist.

Not the open life, the secret life.

Knowledge, by itself, is not power. Applied knowledge is. wink
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#401803 - 11/13/09 01:48 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Phineas]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
I seem to have taken this thread somewhat off topic - My apologies.

Magister Phineas,

I will be the first to admit that I am still learning – but the only truths that I have are my own experiences. Could openly displaying a Baphomet not be considered applying the knowledge of Lesser Magic?
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#401818 - 11/13/09 03:35 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Zsche]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8258
Yes it could. As well as tucking it in. It all depends on the entirety of the situation. An application of the Balance Factor.

Have you read Doktor's essay on "The Importance of Keeping a Secret"?

This is not a matter of one or the other being the correct answer, rather, a matter of adapting to the situation so as to benefit from it.

Perhaps some day you will be able to keep people away without a protective talisman (Baphomet).

Again, this is all a matter of being pragmatic and obtaining the desired results.

Just be aware that the more you advertise, the more of a target you become. And I have seen this happen often enough to state that usually you get surprised by those who turn against you - you hardly expected them to be the ones.

In summation, do what is best for you, and tread with caution. And, while you are at it, weave a little mystery via keeping a little secret here and there. wink
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#401820 - 11/13/09 04:12 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Phineas]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Magister Phineas – your insight and wisdom is much appreciated. Although I have already purchased “The Devil’s Notebook” – I have yet to find the time to read it. It is now next on my list.

Personally I find that adapting to situations is a necessary means of survival. I will take your words of caution and ponder them.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#401821 - 11/13/09 04:13 PM Re: Legal Judgement of interest to British Satanists [Re: Zsche]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8258
You are quite welcome.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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