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#402490 - 11/18/09 08:53 PM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: LordofDarkness]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Thank you. I rushed through the reply and didn't explain what exactly I meant. Satanism is a tool that is inherent in the nature of a Satanist. Science is not something we are born with it is something outside of that spectrum. Any individual can pick up science very much like a hammer and build but not everybody can pick up Satanism.
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#402496 - 11/18/09 10:00 PM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Morozco Offline


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 5
Because ritual is one hell of a fun way to spend a weekend. No pun intended. lol.

Joking aside, I suppose all that could be said has been said. Like a exotic delicacy or great painting, it is here for those attuned to it. To those whom this philosphy is inherent within their nature.

But not everyone is going to understand it nor want to.


Edited by Morozco (11/18/09 10:01 PM)
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#402509 - 11/18/09 11:23 PM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Morozco]
Cryptodelic Offline


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 134
Loc: Seattle
Christianity attempts to function as placebo to benumb the pain caused by self inflicted masochism.
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#402514 - 11/19/09 12:16 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Cryptodelic]
SpeshulK Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 25
Loc: UT
As the above posters have said, it's not an either/or thing. I might be a Satanist, but I'm also the biggest science nerd you can possibly meet outside of the engineering buildings at MIT.

Science is a realm of fact, and it is a very much external realm at that. It allows us to understand the world we observe and to make logical conclusions based on research, analysis, and calculation. While science may allow us to understand the nature of our bodies and psychology when it comes to the individual, it teaches us little about our "selves".

Satanism is a religion and a philosophy. It's used to help us understand the world within us and our own minds. Ritual and meditation on Satanic philosophy help us to understand ourselves, not the way the world around us is, as other religions claim to be able to do, hence some of the confusion, I think.

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#402516 - 11/19/09 01:03 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Unknown]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
You know, I actually disagree.

Quote:
This is why Christianity is an anti-worldly philosophy because the religion willfully drowns out information about the very world it exists in.


Most Christians I know have tested their religion and believe they have experiential evidence. These Christians tell me that they've "felt the hand of God" and because of specific experiences they've concluded that 'God' is a part of their lives. Their perception of "supernatural phenomena" seems similar to our perception of results from Greater Magic.

Key Differences:

a. Satanists leave their self-deception in the ritual chamber.

b. Satanists, generally, demand repeatable results.

c. Christians pigeon-hole their experiences and miss important connections do to their narrow perspective.

I think it is a easy to put Christians in a box and say that they're foolish idiots, completely removed from reality. Underestimating your enemy should be a Satanic sin in my mind; it might fall under 8 - Counterproductive Pride but Dr. LaVey doesn't explicitly mention it there. Christians do consider their world, they just filter it through a different lens. Most people (seems to me) use some lens to fit their experiences into their own world-view. Christians very much dwell in [their own version of] reality, they just put certain events in an category illogical to us (people posting here) but with a logic rational to themselves.

Not using logic at all and using a flawed logic are two entirely different things. Fortunately, I think flawed logic is easier to manipulate than no logic.

Just want to stress - I am not speaking for the CoS. I speak for me, Drimlybunk.


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/19/09 02:24 AM)
Edit Reason: I astound myself with the number of typos in my posts...
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#402519 - 11/19/09 01:45 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Drimlybunk]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
I pretty much agree with you.

While I can spout out all day that there's no reason to believe in God because there is no evidence for it, all the evidence for Greater Magic working is highly circumstantial.

Now, even though I am one of the Satanists who thinks it is likely that Greater Magic has something more to it than just emotional release, I only have this perspective because I have noticed correlations to results; it is also tempered with skepticism, i.e. I don't "believe" Magic works, I just find it to be a Hell of a lot more likely than God.

What exactly my correlations and results are won't be discussed up here, but Christians, in their own perspective also have correlations and results.

Some Christians are even good skeptics! But, like you said, the biggest difference is full on belief versus thinking sommething could be "likely".
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"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#402522 - 11/19/09 02:27 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Drimlybunk]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
Most Christians I know have tested their religion and believe they have experiential evidence.


Note the word believe in your sentence. They believe they do contrary to the reality of it.

Quote:
These Christians tell me that they've "felt the hand of God" and because of specific experiences they've concluded that 'God' is a part of their lives.


That conclusion is obviously contrary to the reality of the situation. Perhaps the nature of reality is still unknown but if there is one thing that is known, it is the fact the spiritual hogwash that the Christianity pollutes the world with is a bunch of bullshit. Experiences of such are based upon their own subjective idiocy.

I actually am failing to see where you and I are disagreeing. It sounds to me as if we are saying the same thing in just a different manner. I state that Christianity (and other spiritualistic religions) are based upon the belief in self-delusion which is utterly insane. You claim they are subjectively fucking themselves based upon misinterpretation of their experiences. The reason why they are subjectively fucking themselves is because they ignore any information that would threaten their precious faith.

Quote:

I think it is a easy to put Christians in a box and say that they're foolish idiots, completely removed from reality. Underestimating your enemy should be a Satanic sin in my mind; it might fall under 8 - Counterproductive Pride


Just because I am calling Christians fundamentally insane doesn't mean I am underestimating the destructive power of their insanity. Christianity has obviously done its fair share of damage but even deeper is the damage of belief. Belief in of itself when harnessed and controlled can be a productive force through Satanic Ritual. Yet Satanism is the ONLY religion that advocates willful self deceit turning a bad thing into a good thing. ? If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of ‘God’, then why fear his true self, in fearing ‘God’, - why praise his true self in praising ‘God’, - why remain externalized from ‘God’ IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME? Satanists accept that they are Gods while Christians continue to believe in them.

Quote:
Christians do consider their world, they just filter it through a different lens.


Christians only consider whatever is convenient for them to keep their religion out of harms way. I mean for fucks sake we have dinosaur bones which utterly proves such nonsense of an ark holding every animal specie is bullshit. Yet they try their hardest to get around that. They ignore evidence and as science progresses they will continue to ignore even more concrete evidence.
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#402526 - 11/19/09 03:30 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Unknown]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
I can't speak for Drimlybunk, but I think what he's getting at is this: No matter how you slice it, humans are essentially divided into two groups: spiritual and carnal.

No force can change one into the other. Just because someone leads a spiritual lifestyle does not mean they are completely barred from using logic and critical thinking. The Roman Catholic Church fully accepts evolution as being scientific fact, and separate from faith.

On the flip side just because someone lives a carnal lifestyle does not necessarily mean they are barred from illogic and irrational assumptions.

The main point is belief, yes. Upon reading your reply to Drimlybunk I think the point of disagreement is the difference between how you two perceive the same phenomenon. And, really, among Satanists that's to be expected.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#402527 - 11/19/09 04:20 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: NapalmNick]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
Just because someone leads a spiritual lifestyle does not mean they are completely barred from using logic and critical thinking.


Yes. smile

To Unknown:

I think other aspects of Christianity, like its intentional manipulation of my society's laws, are more threatening than their flawed perception of reality. I don't really care if they come to different conclusions about the same data than I do. I would rather acknowledge that persons (not "people") use logic when making decisions and use that fact to destabilize those people by modifying the way each person draws their conclusions.

Declaring that Christians are insane will not change anything. Considering Christian persons as rational thinkers gives us grounds to maneuver them towards a more pragmatic perspective and ultimately our own personal gain.

I'm as angry as you are about the way they've affect the world. I have just met and read work by too many intelligent Christians to discount them as frivolous thinkers. I also find that many 'spiritual' folks are on the fence and ready to accept anything that works 'better.' There are, of course, some people who refuse to consider alternatives but I also find those people to have the most "evidence" (stuff they see as valid). What we need to do is change their approach to investigating the world, not their conclusion.

We agree on the problem. I think we disagree on the solution, which is fine with me. We have both made a clear point. coopdevil

Knowing anything is dangerous.
Belief is dangerous. Unfortunately, you can not change a belief. You can, however, change the approach that leads to those beliefs.


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/19/09 04:21 AM)
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#402541 - 11/19/09 09:10 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: NapalmNick]
Warlock Atreus Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 61
Loc: Dallas TX
I would suggest that carnal, spiritual, and logical are orthogonal and that everyone has a value for each dimension of their personality. (Of course, there are other dimensions. But they are not germane to this discussion.) That is why your statement that one cannot be changed into the other makes sense to me. A high carnal value does not logically follow from a low spiritual value and vice versa.

Though there may be many examples of people for whom it appears the increase of one decreases the other. It's that "correlation is not causation" thing. Those common archetypes (or stereotypes) within the herds who share similar values for each of those dimensions can lead one to think they are linked. I would say that if you could objectively assign the values for each as 0-100 you can find someone who is a {Carnal-0, Spiritual-0, Logical-0} and you can find someone who is {C-100, S-100, L-100} and all of the values between.
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#402563 - 11/19/09 11:06 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Unknown]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Thank you. I rushed through the reply and didn't explain what exactly I meant. Satanism is a tool that is inherent in the nature of a Satanist. Science is not something we are born with it is something outside of that spectrum. Any individual can pick up science very much like a hammer and build but not everybody can pick up Satanism.


Exactly!

I shall give you an A+ young Skywalker!

May the "education" be with you!! laugh
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"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

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#402621 - 11/19/09 05:12 PM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Drimlybunk]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I see your point completely now. And consequently I agree with you as well.

My cousin is an EMT and a Firefighter. He has seen some very gruesome things and has had to transport a lot of schizophrenia victims. He uses these experiences as a justification as to why god is real. He is also incredibly smart. The last time we spoke he was building a solar-powered heater for the winter. I do not agree with his persona perspective on life but then it doesn't matter. He gets along fine just the way he is. Take care.
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#402819 - 11/21/09 09:36 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Unknown]
Euryale Offline


Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 3
I will bring forward that the general prejudice and topic matter on Christians and their ignorance/insanity is not necessary in this Topic. Plus I’d like to put forward most of you who have commented on their religion have no real solid evidence or backing to your general argument worth reading. In fact anyone quoting and reading satanic texts for proper insight on any one of the Christian denominations are pathetic and quite stupid/ignorant in their manner.

Also I will comment on respecting other religions and people’s own choice of worship, practice and belief. If you want to have your own opinion on a religion that’s perfectly fine also. In the future base your educated opinion and argument in a way that’s well represented that can be properly intellectually debated rather then basing your argument on just your opinion.

You complain about another religion’s ignorance without fully even understanding their religion or the different diverse beliefs within it. I consider this hypocritical and I would respect your opinion if there was some level of sophistication in your argument.

Generally I’d like to see an argument based on fact and opinion rather then just on biased opinions.

I’d like to end this with the fact that ignorance and basic prejudice really pisses me off and for a group of well established people such as the ones from this Church and forum its disappointing to see.

Let me know if you have a general conflict with what i just said. Regardless I do think that i am quite reasonable in my manner here.

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#402820 - 11/21/09 09:46 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Euryale]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8840
What in the world are you talking about, specifically?
Who are you talking TO, specifically?
What statements, by who, are you objecting to, specifically?

Without knowing what person you are addressing, and what you are taking exception to, SPECIFICALLY, your post can be summed up as follows:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah!!!
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#402822 - 11/21/09 09:52 AM Re: Why not just turn to science if you are an atheist? [Re: Quaark]
Euryale Offline


Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 3
Originally Posted By: Daark
What in the world are you talking about, specifically?
Who are you talking TO, specifically?
What statements, by who, are you objecting to, specifically?

Without knowing what person you are addressing, and what you are taking exception to, SPECIFICALLY, your post can be summed up as follows:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah!!!


If your too stupid to scroll upwoulds and understand who i'm directing this to i'm not going to waste my time on this bullshit.


Edited by Euryale (11/21/09 09:53 AM)

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