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#402894 - 11/22/09 02:55 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Delta]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
I cannot help but laugh at your last remark -clever. Unless of course by pipe you mean something else.

Unknown if one is a Christian but then comes to the realization that it's not for them there is in some way a transformation. It sounds like you're regurgitating a post made in another thread.

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#402898 - 11/22/09 03:52 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
You mentioned in your post about possible theories as to why one would decide to take up Satanism as opposed to Christianity.

Well Satanism trumps theory with facts. For over 43 years it has been proven that those who have decided to take up the mantle of Satanism have done so because they are born that way. They read The Satanic Bible and see their nature in it. Satanists come from all walks of life and no matter the back round it all comes down to bedrock, your nature as a Satanist.
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#402900 - 11/22/09 04:32 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
I appreciate your posts, I'm just wondering how one proves they are born a certain way? Does the way one is raised not play a role in who they are?

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#402901 - 11/22/09 04:47 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
The way how one is raised, but also don't forget about the reactions and opinions on that mentioned way, as they are also important in process of forming one's personality.

Little child can not choose, in which way will be raised, but can have some feeling about it whole and can start questioning, or can "join the train". Or, some combination of both.

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#402902 - 11/22/09 05:10 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
It is understandable that some may not completely understand the "born not made" bit. I do not speak for the CoS, but this is how I perceive that saying:

"Born not made" does not mean you were born with every nuance of the philosophy in your skull. Before I read the Satanic Bible, I had nothing even approximating Satanic Ritual in my daily routines and activities, and in fact, before TSB confirmed some of my lifelong sentiments, I sometimes displayed very unSatanic behavior.

But, I take my perspective of the saying from this section of Magus Gilmore's introduction to TSB ". . . for it will not transform you into something you are not. It cannot convert you, or persuade you in directions not inherent in your nature." (My emphasis)

You are born with certain predispositions. If you read the book, and have no problem living the philosophy, then chances are you have a few Satanic qualities. If you read the book and the philosophy flows so naturally it's exhilarating, chances are you are a born Satanist.

But that is just my personal interpretation, and in know way represents any official Church answers to your question.
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"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#402906 - 11/22/09 05:33 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Being young our parents naturally try to influence us to the best of their ability. They wish to see us grow up as intelligent and productive members of society. They also want us to follow the religion they too have been brought up in usually because they feel it is the "right way". This plays a huge role in our development as human beings. As we mature and grow older we begin to de-identify from what our parents tried to teach us and begin to develop our own independence. I am suggesting simply 2 very important things based upon my experience:

1.) It matters not how you are raised nor what religious background you have, your carnal nature will always trump such forces.

2.) The nature of the Satanist has and always will be there. No amount of indoctrination, rejection, and denial will ever change that.

Satanists use The Satanic Bible as a measuring stick for their natural inculcation of The Nine Satanic Statements.

That is what I mean by Satanists being born and not made. And this is just an opinion based upon my own personal experience.


Edited by Unknown (11/22/09 05:37 AM)
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#402919 - 11/22/09 09:30 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Bridget

LordOfDarkness I wasn't aware Delta and I were debating. I'm merely interested in their opinion on this matter.


Oh Ok. Thank you for informing me. smile
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"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402977 - 11/23/09 12:14 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Pablovilla Offline



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 267
Loc: Victorville, California
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
Unknown this is true but one can come up with other theories as to why a Christian would become a Satanist.


Well a Christian cannot really become a Satanist.

If you are a Satanist it is because you were born that way. There is no conversion.



There is another way to put it, one can be raised as a christian, but not be a true christian. A good example of this is in the book of Job, where god takes away everything that Job had and Job stays true to his faith. That is what I would call a christian, as no matter what happened to him he did not loose his faith.

However if someone is not a true christian they would not follow Job's example and relaize that they were wrong to put faith in a man in the sky with a beard, because he would realize that god is not all good, or god is not all powerful, or god does not exist and they would realize as many other wise people have that they had been played a fool.
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#402980 - 11/23/09 01:08 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Thanks to everyone for giving their opinions on this -I tend to question everything. When I first read TSB it felt like a reflection of who I was. This got me thinking about why I am the way I am. Yes many of my attributes can be accredited to carnal nature but not all of them. I understand the idea of being a born Satanist but cannot help to think there is something more to it.

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#402981 - 11/23/09 01:24 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
This reminds me of how local Christians tried to convert me and some other kids. Looking back, this was kind of creepy.

They dressed up like clowns. They'd walk around the neighborhood, obviously attracting the interests of children. Then they had a little "show" across the street in a little grassy park (which was right across the street from my aunt's house who was able to keep a watch the entire time to negate the creep factor; I also assume that she knew them though I never asked).

They did this whole comedy routine, which I still think was great. And then they began about Sin and Faith (represented by black and gold balloons). Happily the golden "Faith" balloon popped, which made everything a lot funnier.
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#402982 - 11/23/09 01:29 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
‹bermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
"Conversion," in religious parlance, applies when someone adopts a set of beliefs different from the ones they already have. Anyone can convert to another religion. It simply means adopting the new beliefs and making them a normative part of one's life and worldview.

Under that definition, someone could "convert" to Satanism, since it describes itself as a religion. The rub comes in on the assertion that Satanists are born that way. It's only when they discover the "philosophy of satanism" as espoused by its founders and hierarchy, that it "resonates" with who they really are, according to some posts I've been reading. My answer is that it should resonate with them, if it's a sound religion. It should resonate with who the person really is. That's precisely what makes people convert or adopt a new set of beliefs. So I would assert that the answer is yes to both questions:

A) Yes, a person can convert to Satanism, and
B) Yes, a person is born a Satanist (an orthodox satanist would assert this, just as someone from another religion would)

Both propositions can be held to be true at the same time. As a matter of fact, The Black Mass requires a vivid denial of the Christian God, so it would not exist, especially as a "psychodrama" if it were not to serve as a religious drama and acceptance of the new beliefs, while at the same time, exorcising the old ones. Certainly a Christian can "convert" to Satanism, and The Black Mass would be a powerful ritual to perform in such a case.

Just my 2 cents.
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#402985 - 11/23/09 02:08 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ‹bermensch]
Pablovilla Offline



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 267
Loc: Victorville, California
Agreed, however I have always known myself to be different than those that are arround me. For many years I have had those they have tried to convert me, but in the process I have learned more about the things that did not make sence, and to me proof that god does not exist. The existance of something that requires faith is impossible to accept.

Electrons can't be seen, but can be measured, same with many small things, an ameoba exists but can only be seen under a microscope. So that exist as well.

I understand christanity, but do not belive in it, and far back as I can remember there were always something that was said in any story that made no sence to me at the time, but when I asked about it was told that it takes faith to understand why.

Later after years of study I came to the conclusion that it is all a racket, one is forgiven for harming others just by giving something to the church, but what about the one harmed? Also the stand on birth control and everything else is only to gain money and power over people at the expence of the people. All organized religions that I'm aware of require some form of tide to go out and get more suckers to join.

I was raised as a christian, but never really was one. I questioned all of the things that I was taught. Also I have always belived it is wrong to try and convert anyone to another religion, and that goes right against what the Good News club, and you name it say that a good christian is suppost to do, and the same applies to Muslems, and jewss they are to get others to join their faith. This in my opinion goes against free will, and personal choice. I think that this is why when I do get to the door with the JW's and others that they back peddle so quickly. I can see right through their mumbo jumbo and superstitious nonsence and they know it.
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#402986 - 11/23/09 02:17 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
‹bermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
"I have always believed it is wrong to try and convert anyone to another religion."

Yes, that is called "proselytism," and is a separate issue altogether. It's true that there is a command to, "go and make disciples" in Matthew. That would entail calling people to repent of their old ways of thinking and acting, and exhorting them to adopt new beliefs and actions (conversion). This can take many forms, and in the modern church it is called "evangelism."

Here's an excerpt from The Black Mass:
"I acknowledge and confess my past error. Renouncing all past allegiances, I proclaim that Satan-Lucifer rules the earth, and I ratify and renew my promise to recognize and honor Him in all things, without reservation, desiring in return His manifold assistance in the successful completion of my endeavors and the fulfillment of my desires. I call upon you, my Brother, to bear witness and to do likewise."

That perfectly describes conversion.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#402988 - 11/23/09 02:21 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ‹bermensch]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Then I ask; What is the difference between a "practicing Satanist" who isn't born one but applies the same principles in their life like the naturally born Satanist who applies these principles even before they picked up the Satanic Bible?

I see that I am a naturally born Satanist only because ever since I was introduced to Christianity in my innocent years, I still felt like it wasn't normal.

I still had that burning desire to do my own thing.

I did trust my parents about the deity's existence, but I still wanted to go my way.

But at the same time, I felt like I was forced to... Like a slave.

And it is because of this vision of myself born into religious slavery that I never really grew close to this god.

I tried for those 15 years to see what the problem is, why I feel this way, why it was personally considered wrong if everybody supposedly believed in it.

I asked myself that if 5 or so billion people believes in this god, could all of them be wrong.

Well... I found my answer.

I was never really a Christian nor was I able to be devoted.

There could have been some things that I may have thought to be stimulating for a ritual but it never took me away from my natural desires.

There was a time where I had fallen into a lack of perspective and questioned if I really believed in the deity but I quickly came back.

I just couldn't follow through. But ever since I read The Satanic Bible, I actually am glad that I am what I am.

I think that a Christian who is converted to Satanism is therefore a person trying to get away from something or they were liking the "bad-guy" look and became Devil Worshippers.

In my opinion, one can only be Christian if they accept the faith and have no resistence with their mind and body with or without parental pressure and felt a sense of peace and happiness for the rest of their lives.

I think that it is a reverse effect for Christians as it is for us when talking about "practicing religion"

They fall out of their faith and delving into ours by lust, greed, or some other so-called sin and then bounce right back.

For us, if we were to try Christianity, we would bounce right back to our natural selves.

I think this is where the "Satanists are born, not made" came from.

My opinionated conclusion is that the difference between a Christian converted "Satanist" and a born Satanist is that the converted wants to free themselves and still believe in the Ethreal (spiritual) mindset in some areas while the Carnal has always been the natural born Satanist whom believes in flesh, materialism, misanthropism, epicureanism, and "I-theism". (see The Satanic Scriptures for more details on Ethreal and Carnal people.)

This is my 2 cents as far as converting and practicing religions.

If you really look at it from outside the box, you'll notice that we are the complete flip-side of Christianity which includes spirituality, other religions, and cultures also while Devil Worshippers are only half-ass.

That would be my claim and proof that we are the "True Satanists".

And it is that moral boundary between Satanism and Christianity that keeps the real deal with what they are.

Real Christians with Christianity and real Satanists with Satanism.

We don't oppose everything. The only things we do not oppose are the things that come naturally and the things we individualy agree on.

Would that make a Christian Satanic if he/she were to "naturally" conform to his/her faith?

Absolutely not. The reason why is because of that moral boundary and the meaning of Satanism which for those who are new is; "The opposer, the accuser, the adversary."

Where does the Pagans and Devil Worshippers fall into when describing this "moral coin"?

They fall into Christian Heresy. They are what makes the fine line in between. Even though they do execute some freedom and responsibility, they still can't separate from that "spiritual" mindset and thusly still considered as Ethreal and NOT Carnal.

This is where I refer to Anton LaVey's statement that Satanism has "flipped the coin completely over".

HS!

LordOfDarkness


Edited by LordOfDarkness (11/23/09 03:37 AM)
Edit Reason: Sentence correction
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402993 - 11/23/09 04:04 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ‹bermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
"Conversion," in religious parlance, applies when someone adopts a set of beliefs different from the ones they already have. Anyone can convert to another religion. It simply means adopting the new beliefs and making them a normative part of one's life and worldview.

The rub comes in on the assertion that Satanists are born that way. It's only when they discover the "philosophy of satanism" as espoused by its founders and hierarchy, that it "resonates" with who they really are, according to some posts I've been reading. My answer is that it should resonate with them, if it's a sound religion. It should resonate with who the person really is. That's precisely what makes people convert or adopt a new set of beliefs.


But Satanists do not "adopt a new set of beliefs." There is not a new "set of beliefs different from the ones [we] already [had]," which we discover when we first investigate Satanism. So by your definition, you can not convert to Satanism. You can discover Satanism. You can affirm your agreement with the principles of Satanism. You can even study Satanism, but Satanism itself can not be "learned."

Pretenders, fakers, and "converters" are out there and in here. A person can do everything they want to walk, talk and act like a Satanist but, in my opinion, they're wasting their time pretending to be a person they are not (and ironically violating Sin #4).

Hell, I'll post the whole thing:

4. Self-deceit: Itís in the ďNine Satanic StatementsĒ but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when itís fun, and with awareness. But then, itís not self-deceit!

Church Of Satan


Satanists do not convert to Satanism:

Conversion implies "adopting a new set of beliefs."
"Adopting a new set of beliefs" implies self-deceit.
So conversion implies self-deceit.
But self-deceit is a Satanic Sin.
So conversion is a Satanic Sin.

Therefore Satanists do not convert, by definition.

QED


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/23/09 05:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo.
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