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#402994 - 11/23/09 04:38 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Dr. LaVey also talks about self delusion in his interview with Eugene Robinson -titled Birth of Tragedy.

I am wondering, is adopting a new set of beliefs self-deceit if those new found beliefs best suit you?

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#402996 - 11/23/09 05:34 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Drimblybuck said: "But Satanists do not "adopt a new set of beliefs." There is not a new "set of beliefs different from the ones [we] already [had]," whidh we discover when we first investigate Satanism. So by your definition, you can not convert to Satanism. You can discover Satanism. You can affirm your agreement with the principles of Satanism. You can even study Satanism, but Satanism itself can not be "learned.""

If Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature, then by that definition everyone is a born Satanist. Are you prepared to make that assertion?

Satanism certainly does have a set of beliefs. Its central belief is the denial of an involved, personal God that intervenes in human activity, and rather belief in self as god and the prime mover of energy and master of one's own destiny. That is a purely Satanic belief. Denial of god is fundamental to satanism, and deifying oneself is also fundamental to a truly Satanic perspective. And you cited some other doctrines, and referred to the COS website, which states that in order to be an agent you have to "demonstrate a thorough grasp of the philosophy of the Church of Satan."
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#402997 - 11/23/09 05:56 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
I am wondering, is adopting a new set of beliefs self-deceit if those new found beliefs best suit you?


In my opinion:

Agreeing with a new idea is not deceitful.

Working to change oneself to fit a new idea for the sake of some group is deceitful.

"Adopting a new set of beliefs" sounds very much to me like changing yourself. It sounds like a person can go out to the store find a "new set" and just take it home with them.

The Satanic Bible was not written to change anyone's mind. A person either agrees or not. No one can "adopt a new set of beliefs" from it and call himself a Satanist for the reasons I mentioned in the previous post.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403000 - 11/23/09 06:27 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Thanks for taking the time to spell my name. skull

Quote:
If Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature, then by that definition everyone is a born Satanist. Are you prepared to make that assertion?


No. Are you?

Did I say that? You said that. Pointing out things I didn't say and then offering them as debatable points limits my ability to respond to them. Please explain why you read, "Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature," into what I wrote.

Quote:
Its central belief is the denial of an involved, personal God that intervenes in human activity, and rather belief in self as god and the prime mover of energy and master of one's own destiny.


Does everyone agree with that instinctively? Certainly not. And you can't decide to buy something like "we are our own Gods." If a person doesn't naturally understand it, he could spend the rest of his life trying to convince himself of it... but to what ends? So some people who would ordinarily disagree with him accept him? Not so out of the ordinary... in fact it's rather common-place behavior. But it is not Satanic.

Quote:
And you cited some other doctrines, and referred to the COS website, which states that in order to be an agent you have to "demonstrate a thorough grasp of the philosophy of the Church of Satan."


I'm not acting as an "agent of the Church of Satan" on this message board (or anywhere else for that matter). If I was telling you to leave or change your behavior, that would be a different matter. I merely challenged your point with my own perspective and evidence.


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/23/09 04:16 PM)
Edit Reason: finished a sentence...
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403032 - 11/23/09 11:18 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Excellent post!

From the introduction of The Satanic Bible by High Priest Gilmore:

There is nothing to fear from the Satanic Bible for it will not transform you into something you are not.

There is more but I would encourage others to read it on their own. wink
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#403036 - 11/23/09 11:47 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: ubermensch

If Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature, then by that definition everyone is a born Satanist.


BUT... Not everyone is Carnal.

Everyone has a different nature than others.

This is what my concept in my last post was intending.

I would say that through a Satanic viewpoint, everyone is organized into a faction, religion, or a certain mindset based on their natural instincts.

If a Buddhist is naturally that way and hasn't any personal war with himself, then he is a Buddhist by nature.

It is the same way for any other religion.

Especially in Satanism.

You're either not a Satanist based on your nature, or you are one.

If any disagreement, please share your view with me.

This is my opinion. smile
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403055 - 11/23/09 03:19 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
High Priest Gilmore has written an essay based upon what you are discussing here. He calls such folks who want to parade and be pretenders of Satanism Rebels Without Cause. Here are a few excerpts from his essay, italics his.:

Some of these “Satan-fans” propose that Satanists should rebel against Satanism or its organizational exemplar, the Church of Satan, to prove their individuality and thus be considered “more Satanic.” They misperceive our championing of freedom and individualism to mean a support of disregarding personal responsibility. They are wrong. 'Responsibility to the responsible' is one of our mottos.

The Church of Satan is not a babysitting service for those who prove themselves as non-satanists. The natural inculcation of the Satanic Philosophy is self evident and requires no conversion. Those who are non--satanists are shown the door because they assumed rebellion was enough to be a Satanist. They are wrong.

Magus Gilmore continues: Some newcomers to our philosophy do not grasp its axioms and tear at Satanism as if it were some kind of straightjacket. Others hope to wield it as an “anything goes” card rather than the key to accountable liberty that it is. They observe our list of “sins” and “rules” and don’t grasp that such terms are used with tongue firmly planted in cheek, while simultaneously missing the point that there is an ethical structure to our philosophy—our “third side” which is so elusive to those limited to dualist thinking. These lists are guidelines and tools based on keen observation of human social behavior, not arbitrary regulations or “shalt nots” handed down from “on high” or belched forth from “down below.” Each Satanist is welcome to take ‘em out for a test drive and see how they work. Most of us find them to be both accurate and useful. That’s why we adopt “Satanist” as a proper label for ourselves—Anton LaVey’s philosophy is completely coincident with our personal approach to living.

Either you are living life as a Satanist unaware of it for lack of identification or you are not one at all. It is just that simple. There is no struggle, Satanism is not difficult for the Satanist. It is a completely applicable and coherent philosophy for those who are born that way.

Not just anybody is welcome under this tent flap!
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#403063 - 11/23/09 03:55 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Do you deny that Satanism has a set of beliefs?

Do you deny that sometimes people can change their mind about something?

Your assertions are untenable, as many exceptions to your "rule" would apply. If you applied simple logic you would see this, but you are clinging to a "belief" that no one can convert to Satanism. That is a belief, and not a very logical one at that. It is a very absolutist position, and exceptions could be posited against it. Furthermore, it's an assertion that is not supported by any of the Satanic texts. It seems as though you made it up, and now you're trying to make it so by conjuring up all manner of conjecture.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403077 - 11/23/09 04:24 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
Do you deny that Satanism has a set of beliefs?

Do you deny that sometimes people can change their mind about something?


I didn't read either of those statements into Unknown's post. I think you're putting words in his mouth.

Quote:
Your assertions are untenable, as many exceptions to your "rule" would apply.


Please provide one.

What changed for you when you discovered Satanism?
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403078 - 11/23/09 04:27 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
You obviously do not know how to read.

WHY are you trying so hard to make Satanism fit into a perception that is not what it is?

What bothers you SO much about the fact that Satanists are born and not made?

Why are you not grasping this very elementary concept?
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#403084 - 11/23/09 04:37 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I will ask the both of you again since you both conveniently avoided answering the questions:

Do you deny that Satanism has a set of beliefs?

Do you deny that sometimes people can change their mind about something?
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403085 - 11/23/09 04:42 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
I will ask the both of you again since you both conveniently avoided answering the questions:


Convenience?

Well why should I allow your stupidity to be an inconvenience to me? The answers to your questions are self evident for a Satanist.

If you don't know then......
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#403086 - 11/23/09 04:44 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
I will ask the both of you again since you both conveniently avoided answering the questions:


Convenience?

Well why should I allow your stupidity to be an inconvenience to me? The answers to your questions are self evident for a Satanist.

If you don't know then......


Ah, again he avoids answering the questions and instead resorts to personal attacks. Bravo!

Don't forget, it was my "stupidity" that asserted both points to be true, that one can indeed convert to Satanism, and one is born a Satanist. I said both can be true at the same time. So far you haven't addressed that. I'm not trying to make Satanism something it is not, on the contrary, I have affirmed what it is while at the same time explaining common misconceptions about "conversion." It is your stupidity that has failed to see what was so obviously stated.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403088 - 11/23/09 04:50 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
No one is going to answer irrelevant questions.

Go ahead, assume we answer however you wanted us to and respond to it as you planned.

Until you provide some example of the, "exceptions to my rule," I'm done here.

Please PM me to get my attention when you do.

PS. I apologize to LordOfDarkness for hijacking the thread. Also, LordOfDarkness, your in-box is full...


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/23/09 04:51 PM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403089 - 11/23/09 04:52 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk
No one is going to answer irrelevant questions.

Go ahead, assume we answer however you wanted us to and respond to it as you planned.

Until you provide some example of the, "exceptions to my rule," I'm done here.

Please PM me to get my attention when you do.



PS. I apologize to LordOfDarkness for hijacking the thread. Also, LordOfDarkness, your in-box is full...


Just answer the questions! What is so hard? Are you afraid of public humiliation?
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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