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#403830 - 11/29/09 02:26 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Tapio Offline


Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 25
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Keeping on with my studying since this summer I haven´t really found any questions that hasn´t already been answered in the many posts on this forum. But on the whole "Born satanist"-issue... I´m just not feeling it. To me, I consider Satanism to be a philosophy at first hand. More like buddhism than any other big religion. To me, to actually state a "Born that way"- thinking states a religious view in the same way that muslims, hindues, christians and so on... If there is no God, Fate and so on... there shouldn´t really be a viewpoint like this. That´s just common sense.

To adapt a whole new way of thinking isn´t really that different from starting to listening to a new genre of music. The mostpart of satanists that I know come from an atheistic upbringing and having found satanism has more been a way to "evolve" within this way of thinking.

So when people discuss this, "I am a born satanist". I can see the egopart in it and getting the hardcore-points needed but I also see the same pattern as the Harry Potter- books with all wizards and mugglers...

There is a very strong black and white- thinking going on in this matter, I think. And it doesn´t feel it holds any water in comparison to how TSB portrayed the matter?

Or am I totally not getting it?
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#403838 - 11/29/09 04:08 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Tapio]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
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'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403870 - 11/29/09 12:33 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Tapio]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
I think that Satanism is more than just a philosophy; it’s also an active approach to the world.

This quote by Blanche Barton illustrates what I’m talking about-
Satanists have an innate complexity of mind that hungers for uncompromising examination and speculation, not superficially-comforting pap. We don't need to be comforted; we prefer the invigorating, bracing winds of truth and terror.”

The truth of reality can be very terrifying and most people really do want to be comforted. They are comforted by their lies. In my opinion, this is one of the big differences between a Satanic worldview and that of others. I think that this is also one of the reasons that self-deceit is mentioned in both the The Nine Satanic Statements and The Nine Satanic Sins.

If a person is comforted by their own self-deceit then it is very unlikely that they would even be willing to change their worldview. They’d rather hide behind a comfortable lie, than expose themselves to a terrifying truth. This difference in one’s basic approach to life is, in my opinion, a big part of what makes someone a Satanist.

Similarly, even if a person was able to “convert” to Satanism, the only reason that they would want to is because they feel that there is something wrong with their current philosophy. If a person is born into a Christian household, holds a Christian world view and is completely comfortable with that, then they would have no reason to want to “become” a Satanist or to adopt a Satanic philosophy. The fact that different religious philosophies suit different individuals, to different degrees, indicates a difference in natural predisposition right there.

This is why I think that there is some credence to the idea of Satanists being born and not made. The fact is that even if an individual could change their philosophy or world view, the only reason that they would want to is because it, in some way, doesn’t suit them to begin with. And this tells me that it wasn’t really their true worldview at all. If it was, and it did suit them completely, then they would have no reason to reject it in favor of something else in the first place.


Originally Posted By: Tapio
To me, to actually state a "Born that way"- thinking states a religious view in the same way that muslims, hindues, christians and so on... If there is no God, Fate and so on... there shouldn´t really be a viewpoint like this.


This view does not imply the existence of “god or fate”. It’s just nature. People have different natural predispositions to all kinds of things.

Originally Posted By: Tapio
So when people discuss this, "I am a born satanist". I can see the egopart in it and getting the hardcore-points needed but I also see the same pattern as the Harry Potter- books with all wizards and mugglers...

There is a very strong black and white- thinking going on in this matter, I think. And it doesn´t feel it holds any water in comparison to how TSB portrayed the matter?

Well there is definitely an element of superiority, or at the very least, alienation, there. But that’s good. In order to maintain standards you must draw lines, make judgments and be willing to use personal discrimination. In this politically correct world, many people don’t want such judgments to exist and think that we should all be the same or “equal”. This goes back to that “truth and terror” quote above. It’s the difference between a Satanic worldview and others.
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#403898 - 11/29/09 03:32 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Carpe_Noctem Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 8
Loc: Fort Leonard Wood, MO
I am fairly new to these forums, and I would just like to say that, after reading the Satanic Bible, and a few other pieces of literature, I came to realize that what was being said, was, in fact, how I live and feel on a daily basis.

I grew up in a Catholic household with strong influences on the beliefs. I went with my family to church, which felt like a chore, and because of it, called myself a Catholic, along with my family for 15 years.

Now looking at myself today, I can confidently say that I was born as a satanist. Not Converted.

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#403935 - 11/29/09 09:47 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Carpe_Noctem]
rolandstgermain Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 38
Loc: South Carolina
Personally, I think that there is a causal chain connecting every event. We are products of this causal chain which includes genetics among other things. Satanists are born Satanists from this line of reasoning. This is why, I think, that one cannot chose to be a Satanist. I may be wandering too far into metaphysical abstractions.

These are my views for what they are worth.
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The mass crushes beneath it everything...that is excellent, individual, qualified and select.

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#404007 - 11/30/09 01:24 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: rolandstgermain]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I think it boils down to what people believe, and why they believe it.

Everybody believes something. To deny that you have "beliefs," in trying to prove oneself as having an "emancipated" mind, is self-delusion. The religious man knows this. The religious man knows that everybody believes something, and because of that, he also knows that he can get you to believe something else, if he packages it properly.

Belief that there is no God, is just another belief. Belief that people are born Satanist, is just another belief. The whole point of the world, is to get you to believe something...ie.e to believe in the standards that are passed down from a ruling class. In other words, belief in country, and company. Belief that this fabric detergent will get your clothes cleaner than that clothing detergent, etc. There is a battle continually waged for our minds to decide to believe something. If you are going to practice Satanism, you have to make an effort to do so. In other words, you have to make a decision. "Is this who I am?" "Is this true?" You have to study the sacred texts, and conduct yourself according to the ethical codes therein as well.

If a satanist practices truth instead of self-delusion, then he is always evaluating what is true and what isn't. That means he has to decide what is true. It's an act of the free will. Some people think that believing is just something that occurs "naturally." I disagree with that. We always decide what we believe is true and what is not, it is an act of our free will. Some do it unconsciously, but others, knowing this, bring it to their conscious mind and embrace it. That person's mind is emancipated, because he chooses what to believe based on his own needs. He no longer deludes himself that something is "really" true, that is secondary, what matters most is what benefit will be derived by believing this or that. This person cannot be converted, unless he wants to. The other person is more easily persuaded because he doesn't understand the process going on in his unconscious mind.

Satanism calls itself a religion. That means it has a set of definite beliefs, and a moral code. It has sacred texts and honored prophets. All religions have an eschatology. That is one thing that Satanism never had, until Peter Gilmore. As far as I can tell from reading TSS, His eschatological view encompasses something he calls "justice." However I don't know what he means by that, because he doesn't elaborate much. I can guess that he means retributive justice, not restorative justice, in that, no longer will mediocrity reign, but instead meritocracy will reign supreme.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404068 - 11/30/09 07:59 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Originally Posted By: ubermensch
Everybody believes something. To deny that you have "beliefs," in trying to prove oneself as having an "emancipated" mind, is self-delusion. The religious man knows this. The religious man knows that everybody believes something, and because of that, he also knows that he can get you to believe something else, if he packages it properly.

To me, the word "belief" implies an assumption that is held on to with apprehension at its core. If someone has a set of beliefs, that is, a chain of treasured assumptions, this apprehension is magnified because if one belief is shattered they can all be shattered. I do not believe that the earth is round. I accept that is the conclusion which has been confirmed by science time and time again for several years now, and and if scientific study were to reveal otherwise, it would not go into a hissy fit over how "wrong" it was. Doubt has no shame in correcting itself.

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Belief that there is no God, is just another belief.

No. That's doubt, which is an entirely different thing. Such a statement is like the Christian fundies claim that "It takes more faith to be an atheist."
Belief requires one to shut out all other possibilities. Doubt does not. Doubt merely says things can be "more likely" or "less likely" depending on evidence. If there is NO evidence then you have NO reason to believe anything.

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Belief that people are born Satanist, is just another belief.

I don't believe I'm a Satanist. I can clearly see that I am one by comparing my life with the criteria in TSB.

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Belief that this fabric detergent will get your clothes cleaner than that clothing detergent

That's not belief. If a fabric detergent gets my clothes clean then it does. And I proceed to buy it in bulk.

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If you are going to practice Satanism, you have to make an effort to do so.

Not really. I call myself a Satanist because that's just how I am. The only effort I exert is toward my personal endeavours. Which is a Satanic criterion.

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We always decide what we believe is true and what is not, it is an act of our free will.

In my experience, "free will" is largely a spiritual concept implying a supreme being who could control you, but who does not.

Sure, people can make decisions. But no one can change their nature. A person may dye their hair, but it does not change the fact that after a few months they'll have non-colored roots showing. Predisposition is a very real thing. And no, I don't believe in it. Science has confirmed certain patterns of behavior and attitudes are inherent.

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Satanism calls itself a religion. That means it has a set of definite beliefs, and a moral code. It has sacred texts and honored prophets.

Truth be told, from current sociological standards Satanism does not qualify as a religion, but that is only because those standards recognize "religion" and "spiritual" as being inseparable.

The Satanic Bible does not need anyone who reads it to believe anything. Either it is you or it isn't. You are your own litmus test.

And if anything most Satanists are amoral. The only "code" that is to be obeyed at all times is the law of the land, if for no other reason than rational self interest. What is good to one Satanist might be bad to another.

And I highly doubt Doktor LaVey or Magus Gilmore would ever refer to themselves as "prophets". That word reeks of religious insincerity and pomp not fit for the Alien Elite.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404074 - 11/30/09 08:55 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Original Sly Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 205
Loc: New Zealand
I salute you, Sir. That post, aside from the fact it is a point-by-point reply to another post, is comprehensive!


Edited by Original Sly (11/30/09 09:01 PM)
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"It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting sacrificial offerings" - Ellsworth Toohey, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead p.637

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#404082 - 11/30/09 09:30 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Sure, people can make decisions. But no one can change their nature. A person may dye their hair, but it does not change the fact that after a few months they'll have non-colored roots showing. Predisposition is a very real thing. And no, I don't believe in it. Science has confirmed certain patterns of behavior and attitudes are inherent.


Exactly! That's what I was trying to get at in my last post when I was discussing Satanism in terms of worldview. There is a deeper element here that is a fundamental part of who you are. It’s a part of your core being and to change that would literally mean becoming a different person; at least in the psychological sense. You might compare it to a personality type. It’s not just about conscious philosophy; it’s about who you are and how you approach the world on a fundamental level.

Agreeing with the philosophy is not enough to make a person a Satanist. I think that there has to be something more “instinctual” there as well.

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And I highly doubt Doktor LaVey or Magus Gilmore would ever refer to themselves as "prophets". That word reeks of religious insincerity and pomp not fit for the Alien Elite.

Hey! mad grin
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#404084 - 11/30/09 09:38 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Well, your reasons for using it are part of a creative persona for a specific and comedic purpose. But I think you already knew that I make such distinctions. wink
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404086 - 11/30/09 09:42 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Well, your reasons for using it are part of a creative persona for a specific and comedic purpose. But I think you already knew that I make such distinctions. wink


Of course! smile
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#404087 - 11/30/09 10:03 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Magister Nemo gives a great many reasons why Satanism is NOT based upon belief here.
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#404114 - 12/01/09 02:59 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Napalm Nick, you've raised some questions that are of great interest to me. I copied everything below, and kept where you've quoted me in there. But, I've posited some questions along the way below your comments, in italics.

Originally Posted By: NapalmNick

To me, the word "belief" implies an assumption that is held on to with apprehension at its core. If someone has a set of beliefs, that is, a chain of treasured assumptions, this apprehension is magnified because if one belief is shattered they can all be shattered. I do not believe that the earth is round. I accept that is the conclusion which has been confirmed by science time and time again for several years now, and and if scientific study were to reveal otherwise, it would not go into a hissy fit over how "wrong" it was. Doubt has no shame in correcting itself.

There are several different theories and many variations of what is considered "belief" and how people "believe" things. Currently there is disagreement on the meaning of the words believe and belief. But what you have described for yourself is a rational approach to belief. You may want to check out Stephen Stilch, I'm sure you will find him fascinating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Stich

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Belief that there is no God, is just another belief.

No. That's doubt, which is an entirely different thing. Such a statement is like the Christian fundies claim that "It takes more faith to be an atheist."
Belief requires one to shut out all other possibilities. Doubt does not. Doubt merely says things can be "more likely" or "less likely" depending on evidence. If there is NO evidence then you have NO reason to believe anything.

I thought that a satanist has to believe that God does not exist in order to be a satanist. Isn't that true? So doubt doesn't even apply here. Doubt is not certainty. Someone who doubts the existence of God may be agnostic.

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Belief that people are born Satanist, is just another belief.

I don't believe I'm a Satanist. I can clearly see that I am one by comparing my life with the criteria in TSB.

Isnt that the same as saying, "I don't have to believe in God, I can plainly see that he exists in nature (or in humanity, or in whatever)" Are you too making an affirmation of faith here?



Quote:
We always decide what we believe is true and what is not, it is an act of our free will.

In my experience, "free will" is largely a spiritual concept implying a supreme being who could control you, but who does not.

Actually free will is the answer to the fatalistic views of many religions. It simply had to be explained away by religion, and you used their explanation.

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Satanism calls itself a religion. That means it has a set of definite beliefs, and a moral code. It has sacred texts and honored prophets.

Truth be told, from current sociological standards Satanism does not qualify as a religion, but that is only because those standards recognize "religion" and "spiritual" as being inseparable.

I'm still trying to determine this.

The Satanic Bible does not need anyone who reads it to believe anything. Either it is you or it isn't. You are your own litmus test.

I think it's what the reader needs that is at question.

And I highly doubt Doktor LaVey or Magus Gilmore would ever refer to themselves as "prophets". That word reeks of religious insincerity and pomp not fit for the Alien Elite.

Well, you do use other religious words, like church. And the claim of being a religion is there, so applying religious nomenclature is not necessarily a bad thing. I meant no offense. But, there's no pomp in being a prophet. Prophets are often mis-treated, and killed. there are many modern-day prophets as well that you may agree stood for worthy things. I meant it as a compliment.


The rub for me is two parts. The religion part is one. I've been trying to resolve if it qualifies as a religion, and also, if it claims to be, could it be studied as such.
The other thing I'm really wondering and am trying to figure out from the title of this thread is this:

How do you know if you're a born satanist? Is it that the first time you read it you know it's true? What if you tried other religions for awhile afterwards, and then found your faith waning, would you still be a born satanist? Could one be a "born-again Satanist," to turn a religious phrase?

_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404120 - 12/01/09 03:27 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Originally Posted By: Übermensch

I thought that a satanist has to believe that God does not exist in order to be a satanist. Isn't that true? So doubt doesn't even apply here. Doubt is not certainty. Someone who doubts the existence of God may be agnostic.

There is no evidence, either physical or circumstantial, to even suggest that any kind of personal, external deities exist. There is no more evidence for an externalized God than there is for the invisible Gremlin sitting on top of my head. Because there is no Gremlin. The agnostic maintains that for some people there may be reason to believe. The skeptic maintains that belief, or faith, or whatever you want to call it, is completely separate from reason. To skeptical atheists, and by extension Satanists, the existence of an external God is highly irrelevant. I am my own God.

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Isnt that the same as saying, "I don't have to believe in God, I can plainly see that he exists in nature (or in humanity, or in whatever)" Are you too making an affirmation of faith here?

No. Recognizing oneself as a Satanist is a highly personal and subjective matter. But it is based on an objective document: The Satanic Bible. That book is very precise in its definition of what a Satanist is and what they are not. I recognize that I am one. You may not think I am real, but I know I am. "I think therefore I am"
Beyond that is the basic assumption "The universe is real and I can learn something from it", and the rest is rational skepticism. At least as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Well, you do use other religious words, like church. And the claim of being a religion is there, so applying religious nomenclature is not necessarily a bad thing. I meant no offense. But, there's no pomp in being a prophet. Prophets are often mis-treated, and killed. there are many modern-day prophets as well that you may agree stood for worthy things. I meant it as a compliment.

I am a member, but I am not the Church of Satan. I am not a representative. I am merely expressing my opinions. The word prophet unambiguously means someone who is divinely inspired. Doktor LaVey never claimed divine inspiration.

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The rub for me is two parts. The religion part is one. I've been trying to resolve if it qualifies as a religion, and also, if it claims to be, could it be studied as such.
The other thing I'm really wondering and am trying to figure out from the title of this thread is this:

How do you know if you're a born satanist? Is it that the first time you read it you know it's true? What if you tried other religions for awhile afterwards, and then found your faith waning, would you still be a born satanist? Could one be a "born-again Satanist," to turn a religious phrase?

As I said, from modern sociological standards (at least those I am aware of) Satanism does not qualify as a religion because it lacks spirituality. However, the self applied label of religion is explained in TSB as being the combination of philosophy and dogma. Many people have already studied Satanism as a religion from an outside party perspective. If anything, I would imagine the CoS encourages this as it helps to dispel misconceptions.

There are many members, and even some in the hierarchy who saw themselves as belonging to other religions before recognizing themselves as Satanists. Like my hair-dye example, however, it wasn't really them. When I declared myself an atheist I realized that although I used to verbally say I "believed in God", I never really did.

The same applies to Satanism. Although it may look like a "new" perspective from a third party, it is actually a removal of blinders and a self-recognition.

I must reiterate that these are MY statements, not that of the Church of Satan.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404158 - 12/01/09 10:13 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I'm not sure this will be helpful, but it's all I have to contribute here.

Quote:
There are several different theories and many variations of what is considered "belief" and how people "believe" things. Currently there is disagreement on the meaning of the words believe and belief.

In English-language philosophy, there's a long tradition (going back hundreds of years) of using the word "belief" to mean, holding a claim to be true, or giving assent to it. In this sense of the word, Satanists do have "beliefs", because there are things we hold to be true.

The reason the word is defined in this way, is so we can distinguish between the content of what is held to be true, and the grounds upon which it's held to be true. Two people might hold the same belief (ie. give assent to the same claim), but one might have solid reasons for doing so, and another might not.

"Knowledge" is typically defined as "true belief with warrant", ie. you hold something to be true, and it is true, and your grounds for holding it to be true are sufficient to establish conclusively that it is true.


Edited by reprobate (12/01/09 10:14 AM)
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