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#404198 - 12/01/09 05:46 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
asmodeus_frost Offline


Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 26
I was raised Lutheran, which is Catholic Light. grin I remember catechism class very well. I recall all of the other boys & girls listening very intently & without question of anything the pastor was saying. I was the child who thought to himself - (mind you I was around nine years old or so) What a bunch of crap! They're telling me, a loving God created me, in his own image. Has a place for me to go & to be with him once I die. However, you're never going to see him, touch him, smell him, feel him (in a tangible sense), but if you don't believe, you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell! Even as a child I knew this was bollocks. I asked a few questions during class, one of the classics being...

The Jews are his chosen people? Then why don't they believe he's the son of God? Why did they kill him?

As I got older, I realized to myself, that they must possess a 'get out of jail' free card, or something. Growing up though, in a household who preached this was still tough to shake. Everything up until this your parents told you, they had right. Why would they tell you this, with such passion if it weren't true? Then I got older & realized...because their parents did the same thing! Fear was instilled in them at a young age & they never broke through the chains that bound them to some imaginary character.

Later, in my teens I read a copy of the Satanic Bible & it all changed from there. My parents are great people, don't get me wrong. In fact, like I've stated in a few previous posts, they are my best friends, even to this day. We just stray far from religious discussion(s), because they know we're not on the same page, whatsoever! We now, agree to disagree.

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#404250 - 12/01/09 11:47 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: asmodeus_frost]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: asmodeus_frost
I was raised Lutheran, which is Catholic Light. grin I remember catechism class very well. I recall all of the other boys & girls listening very intently & without question of anything the pastor was saying. I was the child who thought to himself - (mind you I was around nine years old or so) What a bunch of crap! They're telling me, a loving God created me, in his own image. Has a place for me to go & to be with him once I die. However, you're never going to see him, touch him, smell him, feel him (in a tangible sense), but if you don't believe, you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell! Even as a child I knew this was bollocks. I asked a few questions during class, one of the classics being...

The Jews are his chosen people? Then why don't they believe he's the son of God? Why did they kill him?

As I got older, I realized to myself, that they must possess a 'get out of jail' free card, or something. Growing up though, in a household who preached this was still tough to shake. Everything up until this your parents told you, they had right. Why would they tell you this, with such passion if it weren't true? Then I got older & realized...because their parents did the same thing! Fear was instilled in them at a young age & they never broke through the chains that bound them to some imaginary character.

Later, in my teens I read a copy of the Satanic Bible & it all changed from there. My parents are great people, don't get me wrong. In fact, like I've stated in a few previous posts, they are my best friends, even to this day. We just stray far from religious discussion(s), because they know we're not on the same page, whatsoever! We now, agree to disagree.


That's an awesome story man. Thanks for sharing that...
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404254 - 12/02/09 12:10 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
There are many different images of Jesus. One is as the exemplar. He lived an example. But he wasn't tame. He challenged the Jewish religious order, and their power (see Jesus Cleanses the Temple for example.)

I wonder if Lucifer got a bad rap...since he was the angel of enlightenment. The Gnostics had some very interesting texts.

But Joshua was the Jesus of the NT, only with all the metaphysical accoutrements, thanks to St. paul, whose writings comprise 40% of the NT and yet he was the "disciple" who was a self-proclaimed disciple. He never fully qualified as a true disciple...(e.g. one who lived with Jesus for the three years he was in ministry) But his writings were adopted, along with Luke's and John's and Peter's and Matthew and Mark's. But one gospel sheds the most light on the historical Jesus, and he is nothing like the theology of Paul...Some say he is not John's Jesus either, and especially...
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404257 - 12/02/09 12:33 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
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#404266 - 12/02/09 01:20 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bill_M]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404269 - 12/02/09 01:44 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Originally Posted By: Übermensch

I thought that a satanist has to believe that God does not exist in order to be a satanist. Isn't that true? So doubt doesn't even apply here. Doubt is not certainty. Someone who doubts the existence of God may be agnostic.

There is no evidence, either physical or circumstantial, to even suggest that any kind of personal, external deities exist. There is no more evidence for an externalized God than there is for the invisible Gremlin sitting on top of my head. Because there is no Gremlin. The agnostic maintains that for some people there may be reason to believe. The skeptic maintains that belief, or faith, or whatever you want to call it, is completely separate from reason. To skeptical atheists, and by extension Satanists, the existence of an external God is highly irrelevant. I am my own God.

Quote:
Isnt that the same as saying, "I don't have to believe in God, I can plainly see that he exists in nature (or in humanity, or in whatever)" Are you too making an affirmation of faith here?

No. Recognizing oneself as a Satanist is a highly personal and subjective matter. But it is based on an objective document: The Satanic Bible. That book is very precise in its definition of what a Satanist is and what they are not. I recognize that I am one. You may not think I am real, but I know I am. "I think therefore I am"
Beyond that is the basic assumption "The universe is real and I can learn something from it", and the rest is rational skepticism. At least as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Well, you do use other religious words, like church. And the claim of being a religion is there, so applying religious nomenclature is not necessarily a bad thing. I meant no offense. But, there's no pomp in being a prophet. Prophets are often mis-treated, and killed. there are many modern-day prophets as well that you may agree stood for worthy things. I meant it as a compliment.

I am a member, but I am not the Church of Satan. I am not a representative. I am merely expressing my opinions. The word prophet unambiguously means someone who is divinely inspired. Doktor LaVey never claimed divine inspiration.

Quote:
The rub for me is two parts. The religion part is one. I've been trying to resolve if it qualifies as a religion, and also, if it claims to be, could it be studied as such.
The other thing I'm really wondering and am trying to figure out from the title of this thread is this:

How do you know if you're a born satanist? Is it that the first time you read it you know it's true? What if you tried other religions for awhile afterwards, and then found your faith waning, would you still be a born satanist? Could one be a "born-again Satanist," to turn a religious phrase?

As I said, from modern sociological standards (at least those I am aware of) Satanism does not qualify as a religion because it lacks spirituality. However, the self applied label of religion is explained in TSB as being the combination of philosophy and dogma. Many people have already studied Satanism as a religion from an outside party perspective. If anything, I would imagine the CoS encourages this as it helps to dispel misconceptions.

There are many members, and even some in the hierarchy who saw themselves as belonging to other religions before recognizing themselves as Satanists. Like my hair-dye example, however, it wasn't really them. When I declared myself an atheist I realized that although I used to verbally say I "believed in God", I never really did.

The same applies to Satanism. Although it may look like a "new" perspective from a third party, it is actually a removal of blinders and a self-recognition.

I must reiterate that these are MY statements, not that of the Church of Satan.


thanks NN, that's a pretty hefty definition and I like it alot.. The only thing I have a question on is where you state:

"The agnostic maintains that for some people there may be reason to believe."

That is not the fundamental definition of an agnostic, in fact it's the first time I have ever heard or read of such an assertion. Just wiki agnostic. It's a decent definition, and short.

HS
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404323 - 12/02/09 11:57 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
That is not the fundamental definition of an agnostic, in fact it's the first time I have ever heard or read of such an assertion. Just wiki agnostic. It's a decent definition, and short.

HS


agnostic
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

So technically everyone is agnostic to some extent. To claim that you aren't is to claim knowledge of all in all. Which seems to be a chekc that your ass can't cash wink :P
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You stay classy,Satans!

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#404340 - 12/02/09 01:35 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
asmodeus_frost Offline


Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 26
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
Originally Posted By: asmodeus_frost
I was raised Lutheran, which is Catholic Light. grin I remember catechism class very well. I recall all of the other boys & girls listening very intently & without question of anything the pastor was saying. I was the child who thought to himself - (mind you I was around nine years old or so) What a bunch of crap! They're telling me, a loving God created me, in his own image. Has a place for me to go & to be with him once I die. However, you're never going to see him, touch him, smell him, feel him (in a tangible sense), but if you don't believe, you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell! Even as a child I knew this was bollocks. I asked a few questions during class, one of the classics being...

The Jews are his chosen people? Then why don't they believe he's the son of God? Why did they kill him?

As I got older, I realized to myself, that they must possess a 'get out of jail' free card, or something. Growing up though, in a household who preached this was still tough to shake. Everything up until this your parents told you, they had right. Why would they tell you this, with such passion if it weren't true? Then I got older & realized...because their parents did the same thing! Fear was instilled in them at a young age & they never broke through the chains that bound them to some imaginary character.

Later, in my teens I read a copy of the Satanic Bible & it all changed from there. My parents are great people, don't get me wrong. In fact, like I've stated in a few previous posts, they are my best friends, even to this day. We just stray far from religious discussion(s), because they know we're not on the same page, whatsoever! We now, agree to disagree.


That's an awesome story man. Thanks for sharing that...


My pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to read it & respond.

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#404351 - 12/02/09 04:25 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ArtAche86]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
I think the definition of the word agnostic, and the people themselves, are deliberately ambiguous.

Ambiguity has its purposes, but when it comes to these kind of arguments it's just a pain in the ass. So here's a video Reverend Bill M once posted in the humor section, and at around 6:45 it gives a good example of the difference between atheist and agnostic attitudes.

Notice how the atheist does not claim omniscience.

Also, it is important to note that the atheist goat uses the word belief to infer an assumption that is congruent to given evidence, not a synonym for faith.

_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404375 - 12/02/09 08:14 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ArtAche86]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
It is ignorant to say the answer is "unknowable" because it is not yet known. It very well may be "known" some day. "Unknowable" means it cannot be known, ever.

An atheist simply defines a lack of belief in God. So all agnostics are by definition, also atheists.

Some people think calling themselves "agnostics" as opposed to "atheists" is some kind of merit badge.

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#404402 - 12/03/09 03:13 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ArtAche86]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
That is not the fundamental definition of an agnostic, in fact it's the first time I have ever heard or read of such an assertion. Just wiki agnostic. It's a decent definition, and short.

HS


agnostic
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

So technically everyone is agnostic to some extent. To claim that you aren't is to claim knowledge of all in all. Which seems to be a chekc that your ass can't cash wink :P


Claiming knowledge of all in all is precisely the claim every religion makes. Directly inspired religious texts are used as the basis of that claim, along with recorded visions and prophecies. People who believe it is true are not agnostic. An agnostic makes the opposite claim, that it can't be known. The atheist claims that God does not exist, which is a claim of knowing all in all in and of itself.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404412 - 12/03/09 07:29 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
People who believe it is true are not agnostic. An agnostic makes the opposite claim, that it can't be known. The atheist claims that God does not exist, which is a claim of knowing all in all in and of itself.


OK, but if that’s the case, then, by your definition, what would you call a person who says: “Alright, I admit that I can’t know any of this stuff for sure, but I’m going to go ahead and make a judgment call; working under the assumption that one is correct, because I’d like to move on and use these ideas productively instead of being an indecisive, philosophical fence-sitter for the rest of my life”? wink
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#404445 - 12/03/09 12:21 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Original Sly Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 205
Loc: New Zealand
That sounds about right to me!

Forgetting all the cold, hard definitions and analytical language you guys have been using, and if we apply this to real world situations, how many agnostic people do we all know personally?

I know a few people who claim to be "agnostic" and every single one is indecisive in this way. They don't claim that it's "unknowable". They're just too fuckin' lazy to spend any significant time looking at the evidence and making a decision.

But the common trait I've found in all of them?

They all use the term "agnostic" to describe themselves because they're scared of the other "A" term: "atheist". They're apprehensive and frightened by the term "atheist". "Oh no, no, I'm not an atheist". wink
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"It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting sacrificial offerings" - Ellsworth Toohey, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead p.637

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#404452 - 12/03/09 01:41 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
People who believe it is true are not agnostic. An agnostic makes the opposite claim, that it can't be known. The atheist claims that God does not exist, which is a claim of knowing all in all in and of itself.


OK, but if that’s the case, then, by your definition, what would you call a person who says: “Alright, I admit that I can’t know any of this stuff for sure, but I’m going to go ahead and make a judgment call; working under the assumption that one is correct, because I’d like to move on and use these ideas productively instead of being an indecisive, philosophical fence-sitter for the rest of my life”? wink



I know some religious folks would call that faith.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404462 - 12/03/09 04:07 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
And just why should I give a hoot as to what these religious folks call faith?
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